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 Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:33 am
Um, no, the original Beyonder was a multiversal threat, IG is only universal, and in Secret Wars II, the Beyonder defeated the LT.
Also I'm talking about the Spectre at his maximum power, when he has all the power of the Presence.
And HOTU was stated to be more powerful than the IG in the comic.
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:26 pm
DasUberGuy Um, no, the original Beyonder was a multiversal threat, IG is only universal, and in Secret Wars II, the Beyonder defeated the LT. Also I'm talking about the Spectre at his maximum power, when he has all the power of the Presence. And HOTU was stated to be more powerful than the IG in the comic. And yet the Beyonder was almost completely punked by Galactus (and WAS punked by Doom). Thanos with IG would beat down any version of the Beyonder.
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:36 pm
That's just Doom's Jobber Aura.
Besides, Beyonder was Naive then, just recently sentient so he could be taken advantage of.
I'm talking mostly Secret Wars II Beyonder.
That guy did stuff that would make an IG wielder piss themselves in envy.
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Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:18 am
DasUberGuy That's just Doom's Jobber Aura. Besides, Beyonder was Naive then, just recently sentient so he could be taken advantage of. I'm talking mostly Secret Wars II Beyonder. That guy did stuff that would make an IG wielder piss themselves in envy. Like?
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Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:43 am
Like overpowering the LT's M-body, laughing off a blast that could destroy billions of universes, taking complete and total control of every particle of matter and energy in the universe, owning a host of cosmic beings much easier than Thanos did when he had the IG (Thanos won, but they put up a fight, with the Beyonder, they attacked, he was just like "You're annoying. Go away" And suddenly they're all defeated), threatening to end the entire multiverse (IG only affects one universe), killing Death itself, I can go on.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:53 am
DasUberGuy Like overpowering the LT's M-body, laughing off a blast that could destroy billions of universes, taking complete and total control of every particle of matter and energy in the universe, owning a host of cosmic beings much easier than Thanos did when he had the IG (Thanos won, but they put up a fight, with the Beyonder, they attacked, he was just like "You're annoying. Go away" And suddenly they're all defeated), threatening to end the entire multiverse (IG only affects one universe), killing Death itself, I can go on. Well most of that sounded like hogwash. But since I haven't read Secret Wars 2 myself, I asked around. This is what I got.... Max Mercury I was one of the people who read all of ST II. "Overpower LT's M-body?" Don't make me laugh. Beyonder was-at MOST-up to one universe of power. The LT rules on those all the time. Any blast that could destroy a universe, by definition, would have taken out the Beyonder. He was a universe squeezed into one identity. We saw that literally at the close of SW II. The Molecule Man redirected his power attack, and the Beyonder BECAME the Big Bang of a universe. "Control every particle in a universe?" Dont make me laugh. The Beyonder's main weakness is in CONTROL and PRECISION. Thanos plus Infinity Gauntlet would have pwned the Beyonder in one panel. The Celestials apparently "threw" a fight with the Beyonder, which is VERY different from the cosmic beings in the Infinity events getting pwned. As to threatening the multiverse, the Beyonder can't even come close. Remember: at his peak, the Beyonder is equal to one universe, and lacks precision. Killing Death worked because Death AGREED TO IT. Nobody else has ever been that STUPID at that power level before. As it was, it took "a lot" of his power, and he did NOT have the power to bring her back afterwards, even when his friend begged him. The guy had to agree to be converted into a NEW Death as a result. The Deadpool SW2 was a mess. Beyonder couldn't even knock out DEADPOOL in Secret Wars 2... It matters not. It's been revealed that all the cosmic entities were just messing around with Beyonder in SW2... It was just them ******** with his head for reasons that really don't matter. Also, quoting SW2 is like using the time Deathstroke pwned the JLA as a definition of his powers. Or like bringing up Wolverine beating Lobo in a fight. Every other appearance by the Beyonder puts him at power levels between Galactus and a Celestial. Powerful to be sure, but nothing compared to the Infinity Gauntlet.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:48 am
Everything you're talking about is the new continuity after the retcon.
I'm talking about the PRE - RETCON Beyonder.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:39 am
DasUberGuy Everything you're talking about is the new continuity after the retcon. I'm talking about the PRE - RETCON Beyonder. Well I brought up Secret Wars 1 (which is his first appearance) and you said that he was naive. So that was obviously before any kind of retcon. What titles did Beyonder go around doing all of this wonderful inbetween SW1 and SW2?
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:47 pm
It happened in SW I and II.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:50 pm
DasUberGuy It happened in SW I and II. So let me get this straight. In SW1: -He was frightened of Galactus getting to him. -He got his powers stolen by a mortal human. -And the greatest show of power was to transport Galactus to a ship and he made the planet. In SW2: -He fought some Cosmic entities. And from every resource I've looked up, the entities let him win for some unknown reason. Meaning they "threw" the fight. -He made a threat to the multiverse without any kind of said plan or show of power that leads anyone to believe he could actually do it. -He got his own powers redirected by another human (Molecule Man is powerful and all, but he's not exactly omnipotent) that sent him flying through time and space making him into the Big Bang. Thus meaning that someone as lowly as Molecule Man has better control/more power over "every particle of matter and energy in the universe" -Killed Death....when she agreed to it. And it still took most of his power. -And from what I'm told of a SW2 tie-in, he failed to even KO Deadpool while in human form. -His enemy was Mephesto in SW2 as I recall. Yet in Infinity Gauntlet Mephesto had to at least pretend to bow before Thanos since he couldn't do anything to harm him. And..... how exactly does that make him more powerful than the IG?
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:12 am
Damn!
Cosmic's very rarely wrong, and it seems (from the research I've done" that you're being a bit of a Beyonder fanboy. Remember that dramatic hyperbole is just that, and not admissable as a show of a characters powers.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:06 pm
CosmicBeing So let me get this straight. In SW1: -He was frightened of Galactus getting to him. Never happened. In fact the first time Galactus tried, Beyonder easily pwned him. The second time, Doom jacked G's powers first. Quote: -He got his powers stolen by a mortal human. He was naive at that point. Quote: -And the greatest show of power was to transport Galactus to a ship and he made the planet. Not to mention destroying an entire galaxy. Quote: -He fought some Cosmic entities. And from every resource I've looked up, the entities let him win for some unknown reason. Meaning they "threw" the fight. That's the retcon. We are talking Pre - Retcon, as in he won fair and square. Quote: -He made a threat to the multiverse without any kind of said plan or show of power that leads anyone to believe he could actually do it. Despite shaking the multiverse just by getting angry? Quote: -He got his own powers redirected by another human (Molecule Man is powerful and all, but he's not exactly omnipotent) that sent him flying through time and space making him into the Big Bang. Thus meaning that someone as lowly as Molecule Man has better control/more power over "every particle of matter and energy in the universe" That was after he made himself mortal. Did you even read the comic? Quote: -Killed Death....when she agreed to it. And it still took most of his power. She didn't agree to it, THAT WAS A RETCON! Quote: -And from what I'm told of a SW2 tie-in, he failed to even KO Deadpool while in human form. Since he made himself mortal at one point, and isolated himself from his own power, a normal human can't exactly do well against someone like Deadpool. Quote: -His enemy was Mephesto in SW2 as I recall. Yet in Infinity Gauntlet Mephesto had to at least pretend to bow before Thanos since he couldn't do anything to harm him. Mephisto admitted he was no match for him, he even concocted this elaborate plan that used half of the Beyonder's own power (after he had willingly given it up), along with a combination of all the Marvel cosmic entities including Eternity, to attack him, and it still failed. Mephisto only got through to him when he TURNED HIMSELF MORTAL. Quote: And..... how exactly does that make him more powerful than the IG? Try reading the comic.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:07 pm
Jerhien Damn! Cosmic's very rarely wrong, and it seems (from the research I've done" that you're being a bit of a Beyonder fanboy. Remember that dramatic hyperbole is just that, and not admissable as a show of a characters powers. I'd like to argue with someone who has actually read the comic in question, please.
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:36 pm
DasUberGuy I'd like to argue with someone who has actually read the comic in question, please. Oh I plan to. Such large occurances of PIS have always been a morbid hobby of mine (it's why I bought the first 12 issues or so MK Spiderman xp ). But quite frankly I don't need to for this discussion. It seems to me that the Celestials were fine with ignoring the Beyonder until they attacked them. And seeing as how they are immensely intelligent, they would've fled or fought him first if he were really a threat. They were amongst the first in line to fight Thanos when he had the IG. And you seem to the be the only one to state that the Beyonder had any kind of multiverse affecting power. In fact I've been told by several intelligent people that he "*NEVER* affected the MULTIverse-just one UNIverse". But regardless. It wouldn't be difficult at all for Thanos with the IG to steal his powers or just plain overwhelm him. If Doom can steal ALL but a silver of his power with his old school armor even when he's naive, The IG could steal/control ALL of his power even when he knew it was coming (especially since he's never been that great with control). As for overpowering him, you forget Thanos's lust for power. The IG isn't just the keys to a universe, it allows him to control all of the power that's already there. Meaning the Heart of the Universe, Cosmic Cubes, and if he wanted he could control all the cosmic entities as well. So even if the IG is limited to one universe, those others are not. Meaning his power could grow throughout the multiverse.
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:50 pm
CosmicBeing Oh I plan to. Such large occurances of PIS have always been a morbid hobby of mine (it's why I bought the first 12 issues or so MK Spiderman xp ). But quite frankly I don't need to for this discussion. It seems to me that the Celestials were fine with ignoring the Beyonder until they attacked them. And seeing as how they are immensely intelligent, they would've fled or fought him first if he were really a threat. They were amongst the first in line to fight Thanos when he had the IG. They were ignoring him until he attacked, true, but how does that refute the point that he easily beat them? Quote: And you seem to the be the only one to state that the Beyonder had any kind of multiverse affecting power. In fact I've been told by several intelligent people that he "*NEVER* affected the MULTIverse-just one UNIverse". He said he would destroy all of everything, and his power was felt across universes. Quote: But regardless. It wouldn't be difficult at all for Thanos with the IG to steal his powers or just plain overwhelm him. If Doom can steal ALL but a silver of his power with his old school armor even when he's naive, The IG could steal/control ALL of his power even when he knew it was coming (especially since he's never been that great with control). As I said before, the Beyonder was naive at that point, and fell into Doom's trap, using the Cosmic Power Siphon Harness. With the publication of "Last Planet Standing" (Where Reed Richards uses a device he built to temporarily defeat a Living Tribunal M - body) there is a precedent for technology like that defeating high - end cosmic power. However, the IG was unable to do anything against an LT M-body, and in fact was shut down by one. Not to mention that Thanos, even with the IG, was defeated when Adam Warlock entered the Soul Gem and stole the gauntlet's power away from Thanos. So, using your logic, the Beyonder could easily do the same thing. Quote: As for overpowering him, you forget Thanos's lust for power. The IG isn't just the keys to a universe, it allows him to control all of the power that's already there. Meaning the Heart of the Universe, Cosmic Cubes, and if he wanted he could control all the cosmic entities as well. So even if the IG is limited to one universe, those others are not. Meaning his power could grow throughout the multiverse. Bullshit. There are so many things wrong with that argument that it's hard to list them all, but I'll try. 1. If that was true, why did all the Cosmic entities even fight him in the first place? According to you, they wouldn't have been able to because they would already have been under his control. However they managed to put up a fight. 2. In "Marvel: The End" it was stated in quite clear terms that the Heart of the Universe was a greater power than the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos stated himself that he considered it to be more powerful, and he would be the one to know, since he had experienced both. 3. The IG is not multiversal, this was clearly demonstrated in JLA/Avengers (which is canon) when Darkseid got it and it was stated that it only worked in the Marvel 616 universe.
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