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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:22 pm
@Tez: To be clear, there's a lot there because I had a lot to say. It can be boiled down pretty quickly, though.
Short version: 1. Mirouni makes decisions by himself and then attempts to apply them without providing reasoning for them.
2. Mirouni uses too much emotion in his decision making.
3. Mirouni does not stand by decisions or words.
The rest is details of situations which show this to be true in my view.
Long version: Personally, I think this record shows quite clearly that there are several problems in the leadership of Mirouni. We see that he tends to act from emotion rather than reason and in his rulings often makes rash decisions that are not explained or discussed. This is flaw number one.
1. Mirouni makes decisions by himself and then attempts to apply them without providing reasoning for them.
We see this demonstrably in the situation regarding the GVC vote method. As there had been disagreements with the method of voting for GVC and some argument with him regarding which method should be used, his conduct made it clear he was frustrated with the show of disagreement with his choice, which he had not discussed prior to enacting it. Because of this frustration, rather than explaining why he wanted the vote to be out in the open, he declared that the crew were not responsible enough to handle democracy, and would thereby not be able to vote, which is gross misconduct in my opinion. Tension from a lack of clear motive lead to problems in his receptiveness to criticism, and those criticisms were then handled improperly. This is flaw number two.
2. Mirouni uses too much emotion in his decision making.
This is not to say that no emotion should be taken into making choices, as such a thing is impossible. The problem is that he brings the wrong emotions into the choices, something evident in many situations even back to his days as a vice captain. Mirouni seems to take challenges to his choices as direct threats to his character and person. While admittedly there have been attacks on his character and person in the past, he seems unable to distinguish where the line is drawn, often falling into the style-over-substance fallacy in the process. He cannot differentiate between a good idea with aggressive or angry tone and a bad idea, which leads to his rejection of better choices on the grounds of ‘taking offense’ to the writer. There are a great many examples of this throughout Mirouni’s time as GC. For example, we have the situation with Red_moon_wolfess arguing against the “ultimatum”. Intense fighting took place over Skype, PMs, and the crew forum, and the anger between the two is evident. However, Mirouni makes the mistake of, instead of examining the reasons given why she was so vehemently against such a measure, reading her tone and assuming that her intent is simply to attack him for any decision he makes. Such an assumption (and I must make one as well regarding his observation of Red’s posts) destroyed any possibility of a quick or clean resolution to the situation, and when combined with his first flaw, wherein he does not justify his decisions publicly, created a roadblock to a positive dialogue. Such a thing is not a rarity for Mirouni; he has without fail done so with every situation in which he has been challenged thus far. It is not until he has relaxed and shed himself of the emotion that he can retroactively solve the problem, and that is why I believe his leadership is still being tolerated despite these major shortcomings. This is flaw number three.
3. Mirouni does not stand by decisions or words.
It is worth noting that some will call this strength, where I see it as weakness. It says to me that there is a lack of conviction or a surplus of hypocrisy as he goes back on that which he claims to stand for. There are several striking examples of this in my mind. The first is, on the very night he was promoted, Mirouni said to me on Skype that he would run a democracy. He then made a declaration which removed any sense of democracy from the crew, and after severe words from me removed it, to be replaced with rules. In the GC thread, Mirouni made the promise to give me a re-vote upon my return. When this return occurred, he denied the vote because he ‘was not gonna roll over on this one’. In other words, because I disagreed with his position taking away crew votes, the vote would not be upheld. Now he promises to uphold this word in the future. He made clear that he would listen to the crew and value their input, but then has sought out ways in his ultimatum and revocation of democracy to silence them when they disagree. Both of these things were then repealed when they met strong resistance. He requests that problems with him be discussed one on one, away from the eyes of others, but then demonized and demonizes those who talk about issues ‘behind his back’ in private, even going so far as to take steps to punish those who discuss things without him. All of the things which he has purported to stand for and all of the decisions he has thus far made have been invalidated, reversed, broken, and otherwise made into examples of hypocrisy.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:44 pm
@ Jake: Dude, seriously, just shut up with the "woe, is me" crap about your presence in the crew. It's annoying and ruins anything smart you would have or were in the process of saying. Really. You're an oldie. Cool. You want a gold star or something? You're a SVC now in crew. So? So is Kyros and the man is still right up there in the thick of things voicing his opinion with the best of them.
I liked your idea and your insight, don't get me wrong, but the whiny b***h attitude when someone doesn't automatically acknowledge your thoughts because there is a lot of text elsewhere is really ********' annoying, man.
@ Miro: Really? You're just gonna give up like that: an apology and throwing you hands up 'in defeat'? That's kinda boring, to be honest, and not like you at all. Granted a lot of what you've done in response so far hasn't helped either this really doesn't need to be added to the list. And no, I'm not trying to kindle the fires of continual discord by saying this. I just want you to stand up with your voice like we are.
----
Frankly a lot of the points that have been stated by Fef and Red, including the ginormous back and forth quote fest, are all points I agree with to a great extent. There's still a lot I need to re-read and keep reading, but I wanted to pop in and give my two cents on the situation that I have had the ability to read in the short amount of time I've been home. Details can be given if those in this topic wish to continue onward even though Miro has basically flown the white flag.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:18 pm
COV... I'm saying that as a joke. Also, I was hungover during that one post, and my other post I was hammered.
Edit: But the way that I voice my opinions have always been veiled in a joking attitude. Mostly my post before this was to poke at Fef in the hopes of getting a (direct) response. I've already talked to Miro on Skype, and have tried with Fef, but I have never gotten a response.
My personal goal in all of this is to meet with both parties and work out a way that we can resolve the issue without the fighting.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:26 pm
Fefnir: Unfortunately the issues presented against Mirouni currently are only those that can be fixed through action. Of course some of us will feel that an apology won't fix anything, and I'm inclined to agree. However, there is no real way for us to talk about these problems and come to a deffinitive solution. The only way we will ever be able to tell if these issues are fixed is by watching Mirouni, at which point we will be able to re-examine these issues and either call an end to this discussion or not. And Mirouni did respond to me. Actually he was the first person to respond to me.
To everyone else: I suggest that we allow some time to pass so that Mirouni has a chance to try and live up to his apologies and to try and change the issues brought up to him. I personally think we should give him two weeks. After two weeks we could re-evaluate these issues and come to a desision. What do you guys think?
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:31 pm
To be quite honest, I wasn't going to post in here. I refused to acknowledge that we have come to this point. But where are we now? This is just a replica of BSS right now, do you realize that? The crew is split, the GC is being fired upon, and the crew is in chaos. To be quite honest, it's pathetic. I'll admit I played my role in this, but now it's high time this crap get dealt with. Will we simply stand here bickering while the guild turns to ashes around us? Seriously guys, this is just so...I really don't have a word to say how completely ridiculous and angering this is. I love this guild. I love the people in it. But you people are driving me INSANE. This thread and it's contents show just how far we as a crew and a family have fallen. I want to see us rise up like we were in the beginning of this guild. I want to see this guild flourish again.
I want to see us be a family again.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:12 pm
Shattered_Fangs COV... I'm saying that as a joke. Also, I was hungover during that one post, and my other post I was hammered. Edit: But the way that I voice my opinions have always been veiled in a joking attitude. Mostly my post before this was to poke at Fef in the hopes of getting a (direct) response. I've already talked to Miro on Skype, and have tried with Fef, but I have never gotten a response. My personal goal in all of this is to meet with both parties and work out a way that we can resolve the issue without the fighting. The last time you attempted to contact me was the 8th. I have been sick for the past while, so while it may say I'm online, a lot of the time I'm not. I'm sorry for having unintentionally ignored you because of that. Your post made here, I felt did not have anything which particularly addressed the issue I have with Mirouni, and so was not responded to in pursuit of holding to the intention of this thread. I have made clear to Aine in this thread and to Mirouni on skype that a great deal of our problems come from private conversations about guild events and decisions. I am not willing to have a private discussion regarding these problems unless there is moderation. KyrosDevil XIII Fefnir: Unfortunately the issues presented against Mirouni currently are only those that can be fixed through action. Of course some of us will feel that an apology won't fix anything, and I'm inclined to agree. However, there is no real way for us to talk about these problems and come to a deffinitive solution. The only way we will ever be able to tell if these issues are fixed is by watching Mirouni, at which point we will be able to re-examine these issues and either call an end to this discussion or not. And Mirouni did respond to me. Actually he was the first person to respond to me. To everyone else: I suggest that we allow some time to pass so that Mirouni has a chance to try and live up to his apologies and to try and change the issues brought up to him. I personally think we should give him two weeks. After two weeks we could re-evaluate these issues and come to a desision. What do you guys think? I realize this. However, there is still merit in speaking about these issues as I feel that they have for the most part been deflected. We cannot expect for there to be a sufficient change in his behavior unless there is a sufficient knowledge of what and how to change. I did miss his response to you, and that is human error on my part. I rescind that portion of the statement. I think that two weeks should be sufficient in light of the moderation that will need to be done regarding the new BSS entrants. Asuma Haruka To be quite honest, I wasn't going to post in here. I refused to acknowledge that we have come to this point. But where are we now? This is just a replica of BSS right now, do you realize that? The crew is split, the GC is being fired upon, and the crew is in chaos. To be quite honest, it's pathetic. I'll admit I played my role in this, but now it's high time this crap get dealt with. Will we simply stand here bickering while the guild turns to ashes around us? Seriously guys, this is just so...I really don't have a word to say how completely ridiculous and angering this is. I love this guild. I love the people in it. But you people are driving me INSANE. This thread and it's contents show just how far we as a crew and a family have fallen. I want to see us rise up like we were in the beginning of this guild. I want to see this guild flourish again.
I want to see us be a family again. As nice as this is, and as much as I agree that that nothing productive has yet happened, what you have said does not aid in reaching the peaceful conclusion I've wanted from the beginning. I am trying my best to be professional about the whole situation, but the purpose of this thread is necessarily antagonistic to some extent. I think you've made a point clearer than you may have wanted. Yes, this is to an extent a mirror of BSS, but I don't think anyone would say that when the GC came under fire there, it wasn't right or necessary there. Thing is, there are stark differences between BSS and us. The first is that we are working toward not breaking the guild, talking about and rectifying the problems rather than using them as an excuse to split. The second is that we have a GC who is capable of changing bad decision and making better ones. Whether or not he does this sufficiently is debatable, but that is the point of the thread; to let him know what problems we have and how to change. I said it before, and I'll say it again. There is a values dissonance between Mirouni and the crew that needs to be sufficiently resolved if we are to be able to work together. It can be resolved by his listening to what we as crew want and expect.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:33 pm
Asuma Haruka To be quite honest, I wasn't going to post in here. I refused to acknowledge that we have come to this point. But where are we now? This is just a replica of BSS right now, do you realize that? The crew is split, the GC is being fired upon, and the crew is in chaos. To be quite honest, it's pathetic. I'll admit I played my role in this, but now it's high time this crap get dealt with. Will we simply stand here bickering while the guild turns to ashes around us? Seriously guys, this is just so...I really don't have a word to say how completely ridiculous and angering this is. I love this guild. I love the people in it. But you people are driving me INSANE. This thread and it's contents show just how far we as a crew and a family have fallen. I want to see us rise up like we were in the beginning of this guild. I want to see this guild flourish again.
I want to see us be a family again. It's a little bit naive but this is exactly some people would say. Truly, the fall of a good environment always starts from within. I... I couldn't find the right words to say with this regarding topic since I am a new member of the crew; I have no right place to properly join in with the heated discussion. But I ask you this: what would the members of this well-formed guild say if they saw the crew, who are their guardians and guidance to betterment regarding Bleach RP, like this? That, I do not know the exact answer. But would you be proud of yourselves? Would you be proud of yourselves for criticizing every mistake and try to rebuke the one who committed the mistakes? Why don't just some people just move on and then improve what was considered as a mistake long ago?
We are guardians of this guild. Then, I ask you again: what is the main point of this guild?
What is the main point?
What is the aim?
Reassess yourselves...
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:37 pm
@Fef: I've offered moderation in the form of myself and Yomz both overseeing the convo. We're both neutral in our stances.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:18 pm
Shattered_Fangs @Fef: I've offered moderation in the form of myself and Yomz both overseeing the convo. We're both neutral in our stances. We have discussed how this meeting will be conducted via skype call, and a date will be established for when it will be held which will be as easy on the schedules of those involved as possible. Details are still tentative. I hope that we will be able to use a form of media which will allow those of the guild the ability to voice their opinions as well as be present for the discussion, such as BlogTV, in the interest of transparency. The event, if voice, will be recorded and made available to the crew whether or not we speak without an audience. If text, full transcription of it will be posted for the crew to read.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:40 pm
To Asuma, Kei, and Fangs: I don't exactly know what to post in responce to your comments, I agree, but nothing seems to have really been said that can move this discussion in either direction. To Fefnir: Quote: I said it before, and I'll say it again. There is a values dissonance between Mirouni and the crew that needs to be sufficiently resolved if we are to be able to work together. It can be resolved by his listening to what we as crew want and expect.If this is true then I believe it would only be right that we as a crew make a list of things that we want and expect. Inversely however, I want Mirouni to create a list that he wants and expects from us. If we agree on terms offered by both sides let us ratify them and when we encounter ones that we don't agree with (on either side) we discuss those points. Does this sound like an okay idea to everyone?
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:50 pm
That is a solid idea, Kyros. I like where it's headed.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:13 pm
I'm going to post here my honest opinion regarding the status of this guild and its Crew.
I can't say that I'm not disappointed that the Guild wasn't passed on to either Fefnir or myself, as the two of us would have expected. I am still quite angry that I was not only passed over, but demoted from a GVC position, being the longest serving Crew member in this guild. I have been here from Day 1 (and never left/disappeared, I might add), and I have never seen the crew as dysfunctional as this.
This goes all the way back to when Evil was promoted to GC. We had threads like this, where people posted their beefs and expressed their negative opinions about other Crew members. While, sure, it let people vent their feelings, I am quite confident in my memory that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was accomplished by shouting at each other.
Now, what I see here is two people (Fef and Miro) who care about the guild a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT. I admire their fervor. However, their conflicting ideals have caused an almost COMPLETE STANDSTILL in what could have been a great time to get some good done in the guild.
It's unacceptable.
It is in my opinion, that while Miro was promoted in the most unusual of circumstances, he is, in fact, the Guild Captain now; that is a position that should be respected, regardless of your support. So, while I may be unhappy with my current position in the Crew, I respect that Miro has the authority now.
I decided that it was better to give up a little ground to have a more peaceful environment.
So, I say this: It's now in both Miro's and the Crew's hands to make compromises and possibly give up a little bit of what they want to achieve what could be a better Sereitei than ever before.
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Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:34 pm
@COV: Forgive me for being rude here, as that is something I am trying to steer away from, but what the ******** man? Seriously? Defeat? This is not a competition, this is a problem between people, or as Fefnir put it, a 'values dissonance'. I'm not giving up, I'm admitting that I was wrong so we can move on.
@This thread. Cut the s**t. Sorry for the bluntness, but I'm done. I said my peace, I apologized, I admitted my wrongdoings and said I was going to fix them. Anymore posting in this thread is just bashing of me, and I will not tolerate that kind of childish nonsense. If you seriously have a problem, we will do what Kyros suggested, and compose a list for both parties, one being myself, and one being the crew, where we state explicitly our expectations of each-other. I will honor and go by the expectations you agree on, and I expect you all to do the same.
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:05 am
It is my expectation that you hold to your word. Since your apology and promise to act in a democratic manner, you have made two executive decisions without the ability to be checked by GVC or giving a full range of options to the crew to voice their opinion on. The first is in regard to evaluating the zanpokuto rules. Your poll provides only the option to modify or leave the zanpokuto restrictions alone, even though the majority of those who have given their views in the thread would like them completely removed. You have given a poll that allows us to pick your original decision, or your compromise, and neither of those choices represent the full range of options that the crew have or the decision they have shown they want in the thread. The second is in the GVC voting thread, where you have made the statement that no matter what the results of the poll are, the decision you are making will happen, the difference being in time scale. You have said you will install a fourth GVC and have not given the option to keep the three GVC system, which has three people to prevent ties and thereby prevent, in the event of a tied veto vote, the GC from choosing his own decision. The vote presented essentially asks 'now or later' and not 'yes or no'. No discussion can be had in the thread due to your request to keep posts to "I voted", and neither does the poll give the option to say no to the idea of a 4th GVC. As COV pointed out to me, having 4 GVC also violates the rules you have proposed, which say that there will be 3 GVC and a 2/3rd vote to veto a GC decision. He also noted that there is no particular need for a race leader to have a GVC position automatically. Las Noches, though the main antagonists of our guild, is roughly the size of a standard squad, and the Vaizard are so exclusive that they are almost nil. He poses the question: "Why does Bull need anything more than crew to police his race?" and I am inclined to ask the same. The two currently named GVC, myself and COV, you have said are not allowed to exercise the power of veto until they are officially promoted, and so cannot check these decisions. You have immediately after promising to fix the issues, namely in making decisions on your own without allowing proper democratic process or discussion, done the same thing, twice. I will also note a third occurrence in your latest post in this thread. You say that we will, will being an absolute term offering no other option, do what Kyros has suggested, and have not allowed for any discussion on whether this is the right course of action to take or if this is an acceptable proposal to the crew. In addition to this, you end said decision by saying you expect us to follow your expectations of us, while we have no solid understanding of just what those expectations are as of yet. When combined with the lack of options in how to go about the situation, you have a set of expectations (RE: Rules) which must be followed of your choosing which we have little or no say in. I am not comfortable with that, or agreeing to that. The end result will be discussion of just what each set of expectations should contain in order to keep with the democratic promise you've made, and we will in that case have made no progress in the whole affair. I also would suggest you hold off on judgment regarding following our expectations of you until, if this course of action is chosen by the crew, you see the expectations we have for you, as is fair. Personally, I prefer Ezru's idea of having a moderated talk between you and I, and I wish to pursue that even if the suggestion Kyros made is shown to be acceptable to everyone. This thread, being about specific issues with you, is necessarily antagonistic to a point. Its intent is not to bash you, that being unwarranted aggression, but to make you aware of problems. What I've just said is not a personal insult to you, it is an observation of your conduct after your apology. I am making you aware of it so that you can fix these indiscretions and keep to your promise of democracy. Mirouni EDIT: Rescinded. Anyone may post here freely, and no one will be banned or warned for things said in this thread. However, I must ask that people remain polite in their posting, and not throw out insults needlessly. Also, please post in turns. For example, if someone posts addressing me, please wait for me to respond before adding to it, for courtesy. I have remained polite, and I have not thrown out insults at all. I am acting on my allowed ability to post freely here without repercussions. I ask that you also remain polite and not insult people needlessly, as per your own rules.
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Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:50 am
Mirouni @This thread. Cut the s**t. Sorry for the bluntness, but I'm done. I said my peace, I apologized, I admitted my wrongdoings and said I was going to fix them. Anymore posting in this thread is just bashing of me, and I will not tolerate that kind of childish nonsense. If you seriously have a problem, we will do what Kyros suggested, and compose a list for both parties, one being myself, and one being the crew, where we state explicitly our expectations of each-other. I will honor and go by the expectations you agree on, and I expect you all to do the same. Sorry doesn't solve anything. I haven't had time to say my piece. The exact thing that this thread was dedicated to. I've been working and haven't had time. So before I even get the chance to capitalize on your "Golden Fleece" you shut me down. I havent read a lot of what has happened in this thread, but what I have seen of it (largely not-fefnir posts, for reffrence), is the exact critique of your character that you asked for Jojo. And now that you've gotten it, you aren't even going to own up to half of it without forcing us into a corner too. On top of that, not even a day after your apology above for being a dictator, or ruling with an iron fist adressed to the masses, you go around and make more ultimatim decisions and make yourself an even bigger dictator! Attempting to give yourself more power by giving yourself Four GVCs, so you, and your already decided opinion can get your way when they have ties. And when we comply to your rules, and decide things against what you want, you take away even the GVC power you granted not even two days ago in persuit of your iron fisted rule. Your wishy-washy, and spineless. Defiant even to your own rules when it suits you. You can't even own up to these facts when they are laied bare before your feet. If you can't own up to them, you can't fix them. You are not fit to rule. I want a new GC election. You where not properly elected to this post, as your only opponents quit the running because they knew exactly how much bullshit they would have to take as GC. Not only are you complaining about the BS thrown your way, that you should have known was coming, but you tote around the title as if it was rightfully earned. If COV and Fefnir still aren't willing to challenge your for the position, then I will. I will be your challenger in a new GC election, using Daven's nomination from back when I became Captain Commander. I was supposed to be owner of this guild, but I declined because I knew the bullshit he took was a lot and I didn't think I could handle it. I know I can now. EDIT: Today is Valentines day, and I am going to work now. When I get home, I won't be getting online. I'm going to have a nice dinner with Fefnir, and enjoy what little Valentines day I have. Don't expect to hear from me until Tuesday night at the earliest, as I have work on Tuesday as well. I hope you all have a happy Valentines day. :3 Or single Awareness day, as is applicable. Jo, don't forget to buy Aine Flowers. I always liked flowers better than chocolate. :3
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