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 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:57 am
Since his tradition encourages racism in the form of privilege based cultural misrepresentation, do you feel it is ethical to participate?
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Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:40 pm
To the one that I serve It would be easier to answer that if you could cite an example you have found. That way I can understand more clearly what issues you are trying to address, as I sometimes have a difficulty seperating popular misrepresntation from the facts. I try but I dont always succeed which Is why I typically ask specific questions about something if I am not sure. I am starting to be able to see the difference between accurate sources and those who are questionable. And I have come to terms with the fact that my Teacher is considered a questionable author and teacher. This tradition is based on a combination of teachings from the beings Penczak calls "The mighty dead" which are what he considers to be like saints and his training in the Cabot Tradition. Aside from that I dont know what study he has done in these topics. I will give my all
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:18 am
Well, for a start, he's misusing sacred names form the Gael.
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:13 pm
Interesting... so is the sacred sight sight of the middle world?
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:34 am
TeaDidikai Well, for a start, he's misusing sacred names form the Gael. To the one that I serve Are you talking about the Sabbats? I will give my all
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:49 am
Ishtar Shakti Interesting... so is the sacred sight sight of the middle world? To the one that I serve I'm not quite sure what you mean. Could you elaborate for me? I will give my all
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:23 am
Loona Wynd Are you talking about the Sabbats? Yep.
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:49 am
TeaDidikai Loona Wynd Are you talking about the Sabbats? Yep. To the one that I serve This is a common theme. I don't know the cultural origins of the Sabbats (Samhain, Imbolc, Lugnasha, and Beltaine). I feel that if the Sabbat meanings honored by Penczak are completely different from the original context that they should have new names that relate to the actual lore beings used and not just the popular name. I will give my all
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Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:57 am
I'm not sure it's a matter of them needing to coincide with original meaning/festival dates, Loona, but more the fact that they're Celtic festivals (or at least I have read such), and that's a closed culture. You cannot participate in it without being a member of the Gael.
Taking things from it, even if done under the best of intention, is still incorrect - you're effectively intruding on a culture that doesn't want you there by doing this at best, and at worst, bastardizing it wholesale.
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:40 am
To the one that I serve Which is why I think they should have seperate names as they are not the same festivals. Do I agree with Penczak using the festival names and cultural misappropriation? Not at all. However I am not in a position to make those changes. Ethically I am torn. I feel drawn to this tradition and this teacher. I knew when I met him two years ago that he was the teacher I sought. I knew that with his guidance I could really learn the ins and outs of witchcraft. However I do not agree with the way he uses Celtic sabbats. I'd have that same problem with any witchcraft teacher. I honestly don't think most people realize that 4 of the 8 sabbats come from a closed culture. It's a case where what is popular is not what is right. In my own path that I am developing (based on the experiences I am having while learning the Temple Tradition) I have my holidays on the same days as the common sabbats, but I am calling them something else. This is also based on what he knew and learned from his own teacher. Its one of those situations that I think in general is going to get muddy. To many traditions use the 8 sabbats. I'm starting to think that perhaps those who follow the sabbats need to make a distinction from the Cultural festival and the one that they honor. As I see Samahain being two festivals. The Celtic one and the neo-pagan one. In many ways I think it is like Wicca in that the sabbats while based on other cultures are their own thing and thus need a new name, much like how people should call neo-paganism neo-paganism and not Wicca. I see the issue of the sabbats being very simialer. I will give my all
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:34 am
Loona Wynd However I am not in a position to make those changes. But you are in a position to abstain from racism by not indulging it with your time or money. Quote: As I see Samahain being two festivals. The Celtic one and the neo-pagan one. This is akin to saying that the N~ word has two meanings, the one tied to what regular modern Racists use and the one that is tied to what the old plantation owners used. And that somehow regular modern racists aren't as bad, because after all, they don't own slaves.
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:27 pm
TeaDidikai But you are in a position to abstain from racism by not indulging it with your time or money. How is the tradition racist? I'll give you that it engages in cultural misapropriation, but I dont see how that is racist. Perhaps you could show me how this fits into your definition of racist? TeaDidikai This is akin to saying that the N~ word has two meanings, the one tied to what regular modern Racists use and the one that is tied to what the old plantation owners used. And that somehow regular modern racists aren't as bad, because after all, they don't own slaves. To the one that I serve Thats not what I was trying to say at all. That is twisting my words. What I was trying to say is that to me there are two holidays with the same name. One of which needs a new name as it is not the same and one of which is a cultural festival. Again I don't see the racisim. I will give my all
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Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:22 pm
Loona Wynd TeaDidikai But you are in a position to abstain from racism by not indulging it with your time or money. How is the tradition racist? I'll give you that it engages in cultural misapropriation, but I dont see how that is racist. Perhaps you could show me how this fits into your definition of racist? Cultural misappropriation is a practice that is based on the idea that one's idea of cultural items being open to others outside that culture is superior to a culture/race's idea of cultural items being closed to outsiders. It's racially presumptuous to what belongs to another cultural identity just because you feel it should be open to all. Racism is discriminatory or privileged behaviour directed towards a race or cultural identity. Privileged behaviour between an African American and a black immigrant from Kenya would be considered racism even though they are of the same race. TeaDidikai This is akin to saying that the N~ word has two meanings, the one tied to what regular modern Racists use and the one that is tied to what the old plantation owners used. And that somehow regular modern racists aren't as bad, because after all, they don't own slaves. To the one that I serve Thats not what I was trying to say at all. That is twisting my words. No, that was an example to show that your logic doesn't work, as either way, the usage of those names is insulting. Quote: What I was trying to say is that to me there are two holidays with the same name. The usage of the closed culture names for rites practiced by outsiders is insulting in any circumstance, whether you feel it is or not. I may feel that "******" can colloquially mean "fool" but whatever my opinion is, it's still going to be found offensive. Quote: One of which needs a new name as it is not the same and one of which is a cultural festival. Why must the two be related? Why not have one's own rite with one's own name and one's own cultural markings? Claiming that it's related to some festival or other that doesn't belong to you is not only insultingly presumptuous, it's lazy. Quote: Again I don't see the racisim. I will give my all Do you now?
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Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:34 am
To the one that I serve Gho the Girl Cultural misappropriation is a practice that is based on the idea that one's idea of cultural items being open to others outside that culture is superior to a culture/race's idea of cultural items being closed to outsiders. It's racially presumptuous to what belongs to another cultural identity just because you feel it should be open to all. I guess I know now why the tradition could be considered racist. Thank you for the clarification. Gho the Girl Racism is discriminatory or privileged behaviour directed towards a race or cultural identity. Privileged behaviour between an African American and a black immigrant from Kenya would be considered racism even though they are of the same race. I guess I thought racisim was derogetory... Gho the Girl No, that was an example to show that your logic doesn't work, as either way, the usage of those names is insulting. I think of all the sabbats that way. Gho the Girl The usage of the closed culture names for rites practiced by outsiders is insulting in any circumstance, whether you feel it is or not. I agree it's wrong. At the same time I still see that there are two holidays on that date, one whose name needs to be changed (but realisticaly wont change because people cling to false ideas because they are familliar). Gho the Girl Why must the two be related? Did I say they were? Gho the Girl Why not have one's own rite with one's own name and one's own cultural markings? Which is the point I am arguing as well. I want the neo-pagan holiday to have a new name based on the rites and rituals of these traditions. Gho the Girl Claiming that it's related to some festival or other that doesn't belong to you is not only insultingly presumptuous, it's lazy. Which is why I agree they should have different names as they are different. I don't have enough of my own sources and research yet to show my teacher that they are different and should be called something else. When I do have that information I will be writing something and publishing it in some form. To the one that I serve Yes. I had a misunderstanding of all the forms of racisim. Though I will say that if Penczak is racisist then so is the majority of the authors out there. I will give my all I will give my all
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