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 Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:12 am
Kachan36 Okay, here's another question. You say that accepting Christ as the Lord and Savior leads to acceptance into Heaven. The pseudo-Catholic church my Grandmother believed in says that it is not enough to accept Christ yourself, you also have to have friends and family pray for you after you are dead. How can one Judeo-Christian worldview, using one universal text, come up with two such different answers to the same question and still seem accurate to you? personally I say that if this book was truly "gods" book, then he wouldnt have allowed it to be written in such a way that it could be manipulated by man according to mans desires. but then, I also believe that if there was such an entity that was conscious and could do anything, he wouldnt NEED a book to reveal himself to us all... and if he wanted the whole entire world to believe in him, he wouldnt have revealed himself to just a few people that lived well over 2000 years ago.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:13 am
Kachan36 Okay, here's another question. You say that accepting Christ as the Lord and Savior leads to acceptance into Heaven. The pseudo-Catholic church my Grandmother believed in says that it is not enough to accept Christ yourself, you also have to have friends and family pray for you after you are dead. How can one Judeo-Christian worldview, using one universal text, come up with two such different answers to the same question and still seem accurate to you? People distort things for their own means. Frankly wouldn't the Catholic Church be dead broke and have no power without people buying indulgences? Secondly, If God made us all so we couldn't misinterpret the bible then how could he say we have free will. It would me making us robots in that aspect that is why God didn't prevent us from misinterpreting His scripture. However, God has had his hand in preventing the bible from getting mistranslated. There have been several times where new manuscripts were found dating back to the time right after the bible was written, and compared with the modern bible no major differences were found in translation or doctrine. How can you deny God's hand in that? and yet its there. No Major Differences. I agree with Calipsophia. People have no right to say that your grandma will not go to heaven without you. First of all it goes directly against the words of Pope St. Peter(St. Peter or the Apostle Peter) the first Catholic Pope(debatable but they believe it). when he says: 1Peter 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, He would never say that if salvation relies on your family or friends. It goes against the very principle of salvation.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:31 pm
Calypsophia see... that makes me mad. to me that proves to me that religion is a human invention and has nothing to do with 'god' any so-called god. I dont know if it has anything do to with the catholic faith or not, but those who said your g'ma isnt going to heaven because of you, are paranoid. it reminds me of a skit Carlos Mencia did once, of how his mother reacted when the Pope died. She wanted to pray for him, and he didnt understand why, he said 'no mom, pray for ME.. the Pope doesnt need our help'. in essence he ended with "if the Pope needs our help to get into heaven, we're all f*****!" it is illogical, and completely stupid. if the state of your soul is dependent on what other people connected to you do, then what's the point? if you believe in heaven, I say your g'ma is there, and I say you need not worry about what others... even a priest, has to say about it. Oh, believe me, I'm not worried. I don't think there is an afterlife at all. I was merely trying to challenge the accuracy of this Judeo-Christian worldview--which is a bit childish of me I suppose--but thank you for proving my point. It does not make sense. I've always known that the members of my family who blindly follow everything their church says were not the brightest bulbs on the planet. (They also wholeheartedly believe that the government is controlling the weather using the condensation trails of commercial jet planes--and I'm not even making that up!) Clearly, logic has little to do with faith. I suppose it is none of my business if people choose to follow faith rather than logic. I just wish I understood why they do it.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:02 pm
Card_King1 People distort things for their own means. Frankly wouldn't the Catholic Church be dead broke and have no power without people buying indulgences? Secondly, If God made us all so we couldn't misinterpret the bible then how could he say we have free will. It would me making us robots in that aspect that is why God didn't prevent us from misinterpreting His scripture. However, God has had his hand in preventing the bible from getting mistranslated. There have been several times where new manuscripts were found dating back to the time right after the bible was written, and compared with the modern bible no major differences were found in translation or doctrine. How can you deny God's hand in that? and yet its there. No Major Differences. I agree with Calipsophia. People have no right to say that your grandma will not go to heaven without you. First of all it goes directly against the words of Pope St. Peter(St. Peter or the Apostle Peter) the first Catholic Pope(debatable but they believe it). when he says: 1Peter 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, He would never say that if salvation relies on your family or friends. It goes against the very principle of salvation. Well, the Catholic church has many sources of income, and I don't think it is in any danger of going broke, but that is neither here nor there. I understand your point about free will, and I completely agree that people distort things to suit their needs, but how do you know the original texts weren't distorted as well? They were written by men. Their age does not make them any more accurate than if they were written yesterday. Also, you are correct: my Grandmother's church does seem to contradict the words of St. Peter. But, they are following their interpretation of the Bible. Who's to say they're wrong?
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:38 pm
I was referring to the Catholic Church In the past where they were able to fund the huge cathedrals and be able to wield so much power because of the sale of Indulgences.
I don't understand how I proved anything except people who just blindly believe something don't make sense. I didn't really put this topic here to debate with people who know their stuff and have studied a lot. I would learn from them, perhaps not what they wanted to teach me but I want to learn.
I mainly put this here to make a point against those who believe just because they are told. You are totally right, nobody should follow faith instead of logic. I suppose if someone wants logic to follow faith who am I to argue. But faith without logic is stupidity itself. I know everything I believe I have logic to prove. If I can't prove it with logic then I don't believe it.
With my point about the dead sea scrolls I was trying to prove that through translation almost nothing was lost or changed.
How do I know the original texts weren't distorted by the people who wrote them?
Because I know a large number of the authors esp. in the New Testament. were willing to die before they would stop preaching. A man trying for his own good will not be willing to die for what he believes.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:03 pm
Card_King1 Secondly, If God made us all so we couldn't misinterpret the bible then how could he say we have free will. the free will should be whether to love and worship him or not, not whether to believe he exists or not. so you'd still have free will, and it would be based on indesputable truth.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:31 pm
How can something be free if its bound by something? Its sounding like you want to re-define free will. God gave us the ability to think totally and to make our own decisions He will not limit us in any way. that is the definition of free.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:43 pm
Card_King1 I was referring to the Catholic Church In the past where they were able to fund the huge cathedrals and be able to wield so much power because of the sale of Indulgences. I don't understand how I proved anything except people who just blindly believe something don't make sense. I didn't really put this topic here to debate with people who know their stuff and have studied a lot. I would learn from them, perhaps not what they wanted to teach me but I want to learn. I mainly put this here to make a point against those who believe just because they are told. You are totally right, nobody should follow faith instead of logic. I suppose if someone wants logic to follow faith who am I to argue. But faith without logic is stupidity itself. I know everything I believe I have logic to prove. If I can't prove it with logic then I don't believe it. With my point about the dead sea scrolls I was trying to prove that through translation almost nothing was lost or changed. How do I know the original texts weren't distorted by the people who wrote them? Because I know a large number of the authors esp. in the New Testament. were willing to die before they would stop preaching. A man trying for his own good will not be willing to die for what he believes. Faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. I don't think it is stupid to have faith. I just don't understand how people do it. The logic here is faulty. You know the texts are true because men were willing to die for the beliefs written in them. But you have no proof, other than their words, that they were willing to die. Not to mention, their belief in their words does not make their words true. What you have is faith, not logic. Sometimes, I think I admire people who have faith. I've never been willing to just believe in something wholeheartedly. My brain doesn't work that way. Other times, I'm quite happy with my search for truth and with the way my brain does work. Your original post said you were hoping for a healthy debate. I'm not sure how you expected to debate with people who know nothing about the subject. I thought that was the point of a forum. I was enjoying our discussion and reading your answers to my questions from your worldview, but if that's not what you were after, I apologize for my misunderstanding.
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:45 pm
I think I'm Not quite saying what I mean in more ways that one. I'm sorry. I want to help people with questions and challenges they have. This is exactly what I wanted when I created the topic I meant more of a healthy discussion. I also think a misrepresented myself when I said were willing to die. I meant did. A large amount of them really died. Peter was Crucified. Paul was beheaded. James was stoned to death. If these people were twisting the truth for their own means then why would the die because they believed a lie? I'm sorry, I was kind of misleading.
Benjamin
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:53 am
Card_King1 How can something be free if its bound by something? Its sounding like you want to re-define free will. God gave us the ability to think totally and to make our own decisions He will not limit us in any way. that is the definition of free. lets say there was irrefutable proof that this god exists. that does not mean I would automatically love or worship him. that's what he ultimately would want, right? what good is belief if the believer doesnt love you? this is, as we recall, a 'jealous' god after all. as a matter of fact, if I had to pick a side, I'd probably side with the devil. so you see, all this faith you have really has nothing to do with free will as I see it. what this god should do is give it to us straight and stop playing games (as he did with Abraham) and let us choose which way our will lies based on the facts. but that's not going to happen. and I think that's not going to happen because I dont believe this god exists.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:35 am
Card_King1 I think I'm Not quite saying what I mean in more ways that one. I'm sorry. I want to help people with questions and challenges they have. This is exactly what I wanted when I created the topic I meant more of a healthy discussion. I also think a misrepresented myself when I said were willing to die. I meant did. A large amount of them really died. Peter was Crucified. Paul was beheaded. James was stoned to death. If these people were twisting the truth for their own means then why would the die because they believed a lie? I'm sorry, I was kind of misleading. Benjamin People die for their beliefs all the time; that does not make their beliefs true. People died for Hitler's ideas, but that does not mean his ideas were good, or right, or true. Again, all I'm saying is that you have faith, not logic. I don't think one is more admirable than the other, but I do think they are mutually exclusive. I appreciate your answers to my questions about my Grandmother and I wish you good luck in applying your worldview to helping others with their questions.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:33 pm
Thank you,
And thanks for putting up with my difficulty in putting my thoughts to words. I failed to clarify that the people I mentioned who died for their believes were new testament authors. All of them were also given the opportunity to deny their faith to save their lives and not one of them did. I mentioned them only to make a point about how they could not have twisted what they were told to write down for their own means.
Thanks again,
Benjamin
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:37 pm
Calypsophia lets say there was irrefutable proof that this god exists. that does not mean I would automatically love or worship him. that's what he ultimately would want, right? what good is belief if the believer doesnt love you? this is, as we recall, a 'jealous' god after all. as a matter of fact, if I had to pick a side, I'd probably side with the devil. so you see, all this faith you have really has nothing to do with free will as I see it. what this god should do is give it to us straight and stop playing games (as he did with Abraham) and let us choose which way our will lies based on the facts. but that's not going to happen. and I think that's not going to happen because I dont believe this god exists. I think that you just helped my point all the more. If God did give it to us straight then how many more people do you think would believe? I don't think anyone would. How valuable do you think love is if they just love you because you are powerful? Thats another reason why God doesn't just get in our face and be like look at me I'm so powerful. He leaves plenty of evidence of his power but he wants us to make the first move. Thanks for your discussion, Benjamin PS: I'm not gonna be on here during the weekend so I won't be able to see your messages till Monday. Thanks,
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:45 pm
Card_King1 Calypsophia lets say there was irrefutable proof that this god exists. that does not mean I would automatically love or worship him. that's what he ultimately would want, right? what good is belief if the believer doesnt love you? this is, as we recall, a 'jealous' god after all. as a matter of fact, if I had to pick a side, I'd probably side with the devil. so you see, all this faith you have really has nothing to do with free will as I see it. what this god should do is give it to us straight and stop playing games (as he did with Abraham) and let us choose which way our will lies based on the facts. but that's not going to happen. and I think that's not going to happen because I dont believe this god exists. I think that you just helped my point all the more. If God did give it to us straight then how many more people do you think would believe? I don't think anyone would. How valuable do you think love is if they just love you because you are powerful? Thats another reason why God doesn't just get in our face and be like look at me I'm so powerful. He leaves plenty of evidence of his power but he wants us to make the first move. Thanks for your discussion, Benjamin PS: I'm not gonna be on here during the weekend so I won't be able to see your messages till Monday. Thanks, heh, depends on how he comes across to people. I mean, what's stopping him from revealing himself to everyone like he did to moses? if he showed himself to be the tyrannical god of the OT then who would truly love him? but if he came across as the loving and forgiving god like jesus then why would people not? then people would respect his power and love him from the heart.
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Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:03 pm
Kachan36 I have a question. My Grandmother died last week. She was a member of the Society of Pius X, which is an offshoot of Catholicism that rejected the changes that occured during the Vatican II Council. Her funeral service was a traditional Latin mass. After a lengthy ceremony conducted entirely in Latin, the Priest delivered his sermon (in English thank goodness). The basic gist of his sermon was that my Grandmother was a good woman who truly believed in her faith, led others into the faith, and went above and beyond in service to her church, but that she would probably not get into Heaven unless her friends and family prayed for her, dedicated masses to her, and did good works in her name. In other words, my Grandmother spent her whole life being the kind of person the church told her would get into Heaven, but now she won't because I don't go to church. My question for you--and for anyone else who has any input--is, how does that make any logical sense whatsoever? Makes no logical sense once or ever. Your faith has nothing to do with your grandmother. its like saying that you are not going to heaven because your cousin killed someone. see that is why i hate. ok let me change this. Dislike some things of the catholic church. i haven't gone to church in like the past 5 years and I know im not going to hell.
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