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 Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:59 am
Well even if I think the rumored rules are bullshit, at least the cover art is nice. Also, there are some images of new models. The new chaos spawn are very nice. I recomend giving them a look. Lots of clawed lanky goodness.
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:26 pm
Drachyench_The_Eternal So, Jon, I'm pissed because there's CHANGE? Not because Raptors are now the exact same as their millenia-younger imperial counterparts, not because a Bodyless suit of armor has 1/4 the durability of a Sick Marine, not because my customability in characters is gone (54 gakking options excluding God Specific, Veterans, and Marks, likely to be replaced with a dozen options at most), not because there are going to be armylists that make no sense (Bloodthirster in an otherwise all-slaneesh army), because some models are becoming useless (All those nice little Iron-Warrior Basalisk conversions? Gone. Chosen Champions converted with speed? Gone. 12 Terminators with 4 Heavy Weapons? 2 are Guarentied to be gone, and un-usable unless you buy 8 more Terminators) and have to be either scrapped or have more bought to be used, or the seeming point rise in Chaos Marines? I'm complaining just because it's CHANGE? Yes, exactly. You're looking at individual changes in a vacuum, pretending as if you can see the bigger picture when you know that you can't. You're looking at change without actually experiencing it. You're just positing baseless opinion. How about the fact that Raptors and Chaos Terminators are now worthwhile selections where they never were before? Is that "unfluffy"? That now, two cornerstones of the CSM army are actually worth fielding? You're attacking these changes because they're different not because they're better or worse. You have no idea whether this will make your army more or less effective - you are completely uninformed as to what this does for the game itself. This will change the way you play the game. That's all. And that's what you're complaining about.
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Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:56 pm
FlashbackJon Drachyench_The_Eternal So, Jon, I'm pissed because there's CHANGE? Not because Raptors are now the exact same as their millenia-younger imperial counterparts, not because a Bodyless suit of armor has 1/4 the durability of a Sick Marine, not because my customability in characters is gone (54 gakking options excluding God Specific, Veterans, and Marks, likely to be replaced with a dozen options at most), not because there are going to be armylists that make no sense (Bloodthirster in an otherwise all-slaneesh army), because some models are becoming useless (All those nice little Iron-Warrior Basalisk conversions? Gone. Chosen Champions converted with speed? Gone. 12 Terminators with 4 Heavy Weapons? 2 are Guarentied to be gone, and un-usable unless you buy 8 more Terminators) and have to be either scrapped or have more bought to be used, or the seeming point rise in Chaos Marines? I'm complaining just because it's CHANGE? Yes, exactly. You're looking at individual changes in a vacuum, pretending as if you can see the bigger picture when you know that you can't. You're looking at change without actually experiencing it. You're just positing baseless opinion. How about the fact that Raptors and Chaos Terminators are now worthwhile selections where they never were before? Is that "unfluffy"? That now, two cornerstones of the CSM army are actually worth fielding? You're attacking these changes because they're different not because they're better or worse. You have no idea whether this will make your army more or less effective - you are completely uninformed as to what this does for the game itself. This will change the way you play the game. That's all. And that's what you're complaining about.
How is a raptor squad more worthwile now? They lost hit and run, which also fit with their fluff. How were chaos terminators also not worthwile before? Ive seen many armies with them, and I dont think theyd be used so commonly if they werent worthwile. And honestly, nurgle marines on bikes, I think thats a bit much. I dont have a problem with them recieving feel no pain, and everyone getting some better version of true grit through more weapons, that can fit the fluff, but not nurgle marines on bikes.
Either way, you keep avoiding how these changes are an improvement and instead claim to know people's motivations behind their opinions.
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:54 am
King Kento FlashbackJon Drachyench_The_Eternal So, Jon, I'm pissed because there's CHANGE? Not because Raptors are now the exact same as their millenia-younger imperial counterparts, not because a Bodyless suit of armor has 1/4 the durability of a Sick Marine, not because my customability in characters is gone (54 gakking options excluding God Specific, Veterans, and Marks, likely to be replaced with a dozen options at most), not because there are going to be armylists that make no sense (Bloodthirster in an otherwise all-slaneesh army), because some models are becoming useless (All those nice little Iron-Warrior Basalisk conversions? Gone. Chosen Champions converted with speed? Gone. 12 Terminators with 4 Heavy Weapons? 2 are Guarentied to be gone, and un-usable unless you buy 8 more Terminators) and have to be either scrapped or have more bought to be used, or the seeming point rise in Chaos Marines? I'm complaining just because it's CHANGE? Yes, exactly. You're looking at individual changes in a vacuum, pretending as if you can see the bigger picture when you know that you can't. You're looking at change without actually experiencing it. You're just positing baseless opinion. How about the fact that Raptors and Chaos Terminators are now worthwhile selections where they never were before? Is that "unfluffy"? That now, two cornerstones of the CSM army are actually worth fielding? You're attacking these changes because they're different not because they're better or worse. You have no idea whether this will make your army more or less effective - you are completely uninformed as to what this does for the game itself. This will change the way you play the game. That's all. And that's what you're complaining about.
How is a raptor squad more worthwile now? They lost hit and run, which also fit with their fluff. How were chaos terminators also not worthwile before? Ive seen many armies with them, and I dont think theyd be used so commonly if they werent worthwile. And honestly, nurgle marines on bikes, I think thats a bit much. I dont have a problem with them recieving feel no pain, and everyone getting some better version of true grit through more weapons, that can fit the fluff, but not nurgle marines on bikes.
Either way, you keep avoiding how these changes are an improvement and instead claim to know people's motivations behind their opinions.
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:16 am
It's baseless because we're trying to look at change in a vacuum. Comparing new stats to old stats has no bearing whatsoever on the standalone quality of rules or their effect on the game. Even once we've got the Codex in-hand, we aren't going to know how the changes have really affected the game for a long time. And the fact is, the "rumor naysayers" are going to believe what they want to believe about the Codex - they've already made up their minds based on statlines. They're trying to play mathhammer, which as we all know is already stupid and futile, and they're trying to do it with units they haven't seen in a Codex that doesn't yet exist against enemies they've never faced. I was SPECIFICALLY avoiding discussion of the rumors on that basis - I'm not any more informed than you are. But because you keep calling me out... (DISCLAIMER: I am specifically discounting players who make selections based on background, visual aesthetic, or preference over effectiveness - I count myself in this number - because I have yet to hear any authentic fluff-based whining. Every single example of the "fluff" argument I've seen thusfar has been a justification to keep a powerful unit powerful - nothing more and nothing less.) Raptor squads were a waste of points - a glass cannon without a cannonball. A huge investment of points for something just as durable as another unit at half that price. Hit and run wasn't inherently "fluffy" - it was just a set of rules they had. Now they have a different set of rules, and are more closely priced to their effectiveness. Chosen Terminators were rarely fielded - another unit with a prohibitive cost for a very small and difficult return. They were overpriced, underpowered, and significantly lacking in the versatility of their loyalist counterparts (also an underappreciated unit) - in addition to eating up your Chosen allotment. Generic daemons. People don't want choice - they want their uber daemons. If you ran a cult army, you only included one daemon type. If you ran an undivided Legion, chances are you didn't field daemons. If you ran Chaos Generica or Black Legion, chances are you only fielded one daemon type. The loss of differences between daemons is completely irrelevant. You get one averaged-out statline to represent any and all of them (until Codex: Daemon Legions, of course) - it's decently effective, more reliable to use, and more fitting for those of us that feel Chaos shouldn't be confined to four immutable forms. I won't say I don't have regrets. I dislike the loss of Legion lists, but I understand it. I dislike the focus on renegades over Legionnaires, but at least it's something new and interesting, instead of same-old-same-old. I dislike the loss of veteran skills, but those are just rules - nothing more. That's like tossing out a pizza because it has olives on it. You just pick out the olives and eat your damn pizza. razz I have difficulty with this argument because I feel like I'm going up against people who've already made up their minds. Chaos isn't WORSE, it's DIFFERENT - and that scares folks. I'm going to use some quotes from the thread on Warseer, because I feel like one of the posters there covers the topic a lot more clearly and concisely than I have: cailus The point is that your army is still very well catered for and has the largest number of units in any army other than Space Marines, Eldar (22 core units each) and Orks (25 units including 3 different retinue types). Many other armies such as Dark Eldar, Necrons, Nids etc have only 13-15 core units. And if DA and BA codexes are anything the SM codex will have unit amalgamations come next edition anyway (e.g. Assault Termies and normal Termies will be consolidated into one entry). The Ork units are pretty much all identical other than small equipment changes and will also undoutedly be amalgamated into several unit types as a lot of the existing units are at best of marginal utility and at worst useless. But the point remains - Chaos has a large variety of troops and doesn't need anymore. cailus Play as you please, but I beg to differ on your assumption that the Codex is acceptable as "workable" by "every single 40K player." The screams of cheese regarding Iron Warriors has been around since the codex came out and people figured they could create an army without a single disadvantage. The Daemon bomb has also been extensively criticised as have certain unit combinations (e.g. Infiltrating Speed Princes). At the same time the codex is regarded as having a very poor Thousand Sons list and there is consensus that the way Berzerkers work is ridiculous. People have accepted it because it's the official codex. In fact often the only choice we've had is to refuse to play people using what are regarding as cheesy lists. Your club gives players a blank check to pick and choose whatever rules they like and that's fair enough. But don't assume that we all love the current Chaos codex. cailus I think that many Chaos players are being greedy and lax. For years they've had a powerful codex and now they're being forced to think how they play the game and they don't like it. Call this trolling but from what I've seen that seems to be the most common argument. People talk about Daemons but only seem to care about Bloodletters and Daemon Princes. People talk about the loss of units with specific regard to Basilisks. They're upset that they can't have infiltrating speed lords or that their Obliterators are now T4. They talk about the loss of flavour and the turning of Codex Chaos Marines into vanilla Marines yet they question why the Reaper Autocannon isn't going to be beefed up to match the Imperial assault cannon.
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:51 am
Added benefit of generic daemons for the fluff-minded player (and my personal favorite): you can now field daemons with great-looking models who were previously a waste of points (Horrors, anyone?) as well as custom-built daemons that you previously had to 'counts as' something else.
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:43 pm
FlashbackJon How about the fact that Raptors and Chaos Terminators are now worthwhile selections where they never were before? Is that "unfluffy"? That now, two cornerstones of the CSM army are actually worth fielding? How, may I ask, have Raptors became worthwhile? Wow, we are now just Imperial Assault Squads. It's not like Chaos had anything that ALREADY had the fast-hit assault role filled (Wait, Winged Possessed, Khorne Berzerkers, Bikers of Khorne, Fast-Attack Demons, etc). They are infact LESS worthwhile as their durability just dramatically dropped (Hit and Run adds a good deal of Durability). And Terminators? They drop 5 points to lose 2 heavy weapons and have the same equipment. They are no longer useful for fire support (A 10-man squad has all the ranged capabilities of a 5-man imperial term squad at 13" beyond), keeping the same Combi/Powerfist options, etc. How are they more worthwhile now? Cheaper? Always were cheaper then Imperial Terms. Combat? Combat hasn't improved. Shooting? That's gone down. And CORNERSTONE? OK then, what about Alpha Legion Cultist squads? What about Demon-Heavy armies? Demons were a cornerstone, now you need to pay at least 160 in Marines before you can even consider Demons in your army. Quote: You're attacking these changes because they're different not because they're better or worse. Bull s**t. Losing hit and run is BETTER? Losing Demons as troops is BETTER? Losing Heavy Weapon Options (I need to buy at least 1 more CSM box now just to CONTINUE using the weapons I already have) is BETTER? Losing 3/4 of your options is BETTER? Explain to me how. Quote: You have no idea whether this will make your army more or less effective - you are completely uninformed as to what this does for the game itself. This will change the way you play the game. That's all. And that's what you're complaining about. Less effective. I lose 4 Special Weapon Models. I lose 4 Khorne Models that were converted. Yet somehow, my army is going to be MORE points then it already was (So, wait, I lose models, lose equipment, though am going UP in points?), I find that a little less effective. Fluff-Wise John? When was a gakking Daemonette as durable as a Plaguebearer? When was a Fleshhound as fast as a Bloodletter? So, wait, when looking at a new Codex, you shouldn't look at the old codex? In that case, Chaos has gotten MUCH better. Why? It seems there was never a chaos army before. I am giving information about the Rumors truth. Pages OFFICIALLY written by GW. Or is GW now an unofficial source? OK, fluff arguement: Chaos Space Marines lose Veteran Skills. This means they are no longer the millenia year old veterans, but instead as well trained as a loyalist Marine. Demons get the same statline, even though anyone who has read books with Demons notices differences with them. Khorne no longer blood frenzies foward. They'll no longer wrecklessly charge a AV14 landraider in an attempt to break through the hull. Yes, more closely priced because THEY'RE LOYALIST JUMP PACKS! Hit and Run is shown in fluff. Proof? Zso Sahaal in "Lord of the Night". Hit and Run was fluffy, they'd strike where they needed to and then get out, not get bogged down. Rarely? I see at least 2/3 of the players at my GW use them. Prohibative? Cheaper then basic Terminators. Lack of Versatility? Each guy could take a specialist combi-weapon, 1 in 3 a heavy weapon, etc. Loyalists can take 2 (Soon to be 1), and no Combi-Weapons. Where's there more versatility? We DO want choice. I know a guy at my GW who now has to scrap 8 Fleshhounds since they no-longer exist. Flesh Hounds. When have you heard of them as uber? Chaos is different though. Which reminds me about the loss of ANCIENT ENEMIES. I like how you complain about no-one argueing fluff, yet are fine with KHORNATE WARRIORS allying with SLANEESHI SOLDIERS even though that's completely against fluff. Yes, loss of Legions was crappy. Would it have been that hard to say something on ONE PAGE (Nay, one PARAGRAPH) that said, simply "Night Lords, +1pt per model, everyone in the Legion has Night Vision. Must be painted and Modeled appropriately. Siege Experts for Iron Warriors, etc. Loss of Veteran skills is a shame. I would be fine if they made more limitations (Mainly no Infiltrate with speeds), but completely removing them? Different scares me ecause different means GW is forcing more money out of me, and making rules simpler so that they can give more attention to new players then existing vets. T4 Oblits makes little sense. Nor the wide availability of them (Same as Raptors). Neither were that available (With the exception to their main Legions) to begin with. Hell, in Fluff, I think there's only 1 story where you see Oblits, and only 1 more you see Raptors. Oblits will be taken more now, of course, as everyone is going to sieze the "Walking Dev Squad" ideal with them. Anyways, what I'm likely to do with Chaos? Either set aside my Bretonian Army funds and start a complete rehaul of my army, or just hope I can count them as Alpha Legion using Marines with Infiltrate Trait (Which will probably go away by the redone codex). Which also comes to stand that I need to buy at least one more SM tactical squad to bump my 8-man squads to 10. I'll also probably have to drop a good deal of my special weapons if they get rid of traits. Basically? 40K is going to the younger, new players. Fantasy is staying meh, and surprisingly the newest game set (LoTR) has some of the best rules (Even though I'm unlucky to face Elf players who roll sixes like their life depended on it).
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:12 pm
Thank you, Drachyench, I fully agree with you.
Its not the fact that there is change. Its the fact that the change is doing less good that it was. Yes, I will agree with Jon that having just Daemons is nice because you can make daemon things and use them as daemons, (Like those creepy engineer thinggys I've been wanting to work on from Dead Sky, Black Sun, but not at the price of losing all Daemon choice. The whole reason I played Word Bearers was so I could do something the other armies cannot do, and use all the different daemon types in my army.
My raptors are not worth the high point cost for them anymore without hit and run. And no, my army was no over powered and I am not a power player, only using advantages. I have no vehicles in my Chaos Army, because it is very fluffy for Word Bearers to be all infantry. Now, if I try that, I will get utterly destroyed. I don't have the iron will and blind faith in chaos that my army use dot have. Sure, I can count a daemon weapon as an Accursed Crozious, but it doens't count as a personal icon and a daemon summoning thinggy.
I have said this a few times already, but I do understand where you are coming from. We really don't know how exactly this new codex will affect out armies and how the game is played. But I know that the new rules are hurting armies like mine. Its not the fact that change itself is happening, its that the change is less productive than the way things currently was. There was a lot of possibilities, now it doesn't seem like it. Everyone gets Daemon Weapon, not the Crozious or the Manreaper. Its those little things that are gone that are unfortunate.
Also, new Chaos Marine models are awesome. The possessed are so kick a**. And the raptor lord is kick a**, not ugly as everyone says. I don't much care for its paint job though...
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
FlashbackJon It's baseless because we're trying to look at change in a vacuum. Comparing new stats to old stats has no bearing whatsoever on the standalone quality of rules or their effect on the game. Even once we've got the Codex in-hand, we aren't going to know how the changes have really affected the game for a long time. And the fact is, the "rumor naysayers" are going to believe what they want to believe about the Codex - they've already made up their minds based on statlines. They're trying to play mathhammer, which as we all know is already stupid and futile, and they're trying to do it with units they haven't seen in a Codex that doesn't yet exist against enemies they've never faced. I was SPECIFICALLY avoiding discussion of the rumors on that basis - I'm not any more informed than you are. But because you keep calling me out... (DISCLAIMER: I am specifically discounting players who make selections based on background, visual aesthetic, or preference over effectiveness - I count myself in this number - because I have yet to hear any authentic fluff-based whining. Every single example of the "fluff" argument I've seen thusfar has been a justification to keep a powerful unit powerful - nothing more and nothing less.) Raptor squads were a waste of points - a glass cannon without a cannonball. A huge investment of points for something just as durable as another unit at half that price. Hit and run wasn't inherently "fluffy" - it was just a set of rules they had. Now they have a different set of rules, and are more closely priced to their effectiveness. Chosen Terminators were rarely fielded - another unit with a prohibitive cost for a very small and difficult return. They were overpriced, underpowered, and significantly lacking in the versatility of their loyalist counterparts (also an underappreciated unit) - in addition to eating up your Chosen allotment. Generic daemons. People don't want choice - they want their uber daemons. If you ran a cult army, you only included one daemon type. If you ran an undivided Legion, chances are you didn't field daemons. If you ran Chaos Generica or Black Legion, chances are you only fielded one daemon type. The loss of differences between daemons is completely irrelevant. You get one averaged-out statline to represent any and all of them (until Codex: Daemon Legions, of course) - it's decently effective, more reliable to use, and more fitting for those of us that feel Chaos shouldn't be confined to four immutable forms. I won't say I don't have regrets. I dislike the loss of Legion lists, but I understand it. I dislike the focus on renegades over Legionnaires, but at least it's something new and interesting, instead of same-old-same-old. I dislike the loss of veteran skills, but those are just rules - nothing more. That's like tossing out a pizza because it has olives on it. You just pick out the olives and eat your damn pizza. razz I have difficulty with this argument because I feel like I'm going up against people who've already made up their minds. Chaos isn't WORSE, it's DIFFERENT - and that scares folks. I'm going to use some quotes from the thread on Warseer, because I feel like one of the posters there covers the topic a lot more clearly and concisely than I have: cailus The point is that your army is still very well catered for and has the largest number of units in any army other than Space Marines, Eldar (22 core units each) and Orks (25 units including 3 different retinue types). Many other armies such as Dark Eldar, Necrons, Nids etc have only 13-15 core units. And if DA and BA codexes are anything the SM codex will have unit amalgamations come next edition anyway (e.g. Assault Termies and normal Termies will be consolidated into one entry). The Ork units are pretty much all identical other than small equipment changes and will also undoutedly be amalgamated into several unit types as a lot of the existing units are at best of marginal utility and at worst useless. But the point remains - Chaos has a large variety of troops and doesn't need anymore. cailus Play as you please, but I beg to differ on your assumption that the Codex is acceptable as "workable" by "every single 40K player." The screams of cheese regarding Iron Warriors has been around since the codex came out and people figured they could create an army without a single disadvantage. The Daemon bomb has also been extensively criticised as have certain unit combinations (e.g. Infiltrating Speed Princes). At the same time the codex is regarded as having a very poor Thousand Sons list and there is consensus that the way Berzerkers work is ridiculous. People have accepted it because it's the official codex. In fact often the only choice we've had is to refuse to play people using what are regarding as cheesy lists. Your club gives players a blank check to pick and choose whatever rules they like and that's fair enough. But don't assume that we all love the current Chaos codex. cailus I think that many Chaos players are being greedy and lax. For years they've had a powerful codex and now they're being forced to think how they play the game and they don't like it. Call this trolling but from what I've seen that seems to be the most common argument. People talk about Daemons but only seem to care about Bloodletters and Daemon Princes. People talk about the loss of units with specific regard to Basilisks. They're upset that they can't have infiltrating speed lords or that their Obliterators are now T4. They talk about the loss of flavour and the turning of Codex Chaos Marines into vanilla Marines yet they question why the Reaper Autocannon isn't going to be beefed up to match the Imperial assault cannon.
Im going to cover youre little post first so i dont forget it. Model freedom is not a benefit of generic demon lists. There was no reason you couldnt do that anyways. Ive seen some skaven thingies in robes used as plague demons very effectively. Skaven rat bases for nurglings. And of course there're the comedy armies. As long as you can make distinctions and things are represented, you have model freedom, you dont need a rule change to make models you like.
Back to he original post of yours. Yes it does have bearing. We're not looking at stand alone quality, we're looking at these rules compared to their old ones. thats the point. This isnt a new army being added to the game, this is replacing a list.
Before I move on, its about time you actually discussed the rumored changes, thats why I kept "calling you on it". im not claiming to be informed on these changes, thus why i keep saying "rumored". No one came here for you to try and ruin their credibility and attack their ability to form an opinion. Its a 40k thread, and we come here to discuss that. Further Im on you about this, because you arent making distinctions, I do not like the rumored rules and hope that theyre not the ones thatll actually happen. I have however not opposed every codex and every change in 40k, or change as a whole anyways, but Im labeled as some "naysayer" because you like the changes. Moving on...
Youve been given fluff arguments. An example of a fluff argument that was against the MAKING not losing of a powerful unit, is nurgle marine bikers. Some undulating blob of pustules and boils that somehow manages to carry a bolter is supposed to ride a bike? I could roll with it if they made it some branch off to the obliterator gene and people are becoming their vehicles, but thats different than slapping a mark of nurgle on a biker.
Raptors, many Night Lords players would disagree with you. As for their fluffiness Hit and Run was a great way of representing people who have fused with a jump pack and practiced hunting with it for millenia. And as much as i dont mind a bolter and Pistol and CCW for tacticals, I cant see that on raptors who pretty much are their equipment. One of my favorite examples is the book Lord of the Night, where the main character is handling the equivelant of an army of Adeptus Arbites by himself, comes in, cuts one, flies away, repeat. The coming and going fits the raptors and especially the night lords. Hell even the points cost and the restriction on how many you could have fits the fluff of them being "rare breed" due to "At the time of the Horus Heresy, the Adeptus Astertes made very limited use of jump packs." If they want to make a chaos assault marine entry to represent new legions, great, but dont ruin the legionnaires to do it.
Terminators, youre saying how theyre more worthwile, but two paragraphs (i think two) you said "Every single example of the "fluff" argument I've seen thusfar has been a justification to keep a powerful unit powerful - nothing more and nothing less." This would be the opposite then wouldnt it?
Demons, I am apart of "people" I want choice. Further, only having one demon in the average army doesnt mean they should be the same. Most people dont use contingent armies, so every amry should be the same. It makes sense that the different demons fit in with the theme of their army, such nurgles rot and the poisoned weapon rules for nurgle. Or armor for Khorne. But the rumors say theyll, be expanded later so not much point getting into this. The another thing, youre saying chaos shouldnt be confined to four immutable forms. Hows it make sense then to confine CHAOS to ONE immutable form? Its chaos, its about diversity, change, and chaos, plus their are four opposing deities with very different aspects.
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Looking at the cover at least, it looks like black legion, not the corsairs. I too would like to see corsairs and renegades get some spotlight, but I dont want to see the army made generic to do it. Veteran skills fit with (fluffy argument) the fact that these were marines whove lived and fought for millenia. Theyre going to pick up something new here and there. So unless theres some legion traits like chapter traits, than other than 3 weapons, imperial marines will be the more skilled, which makes little sense coparing life span and experience.
Now in regards to the first warseer poster. cailus The point is that your army is still very well catered for and has the largest number of units in any army other than Space Marines, Eldar (22 core units each) and Orks (25 units including 3 different retinue types). Many other armies such as Dark Eldar, Necrons, Nids etc have only 13-15 core units. And if DA and BA codexes are anything the SM codex will have unit amalgamations come next edition anyway (e.g. Assault Termies and normal Termies will be consolidated into one entry). The Ork units are pretty much all identical other than small equipment changes and will also undoutedly be amalgamated into several unit types as a lot of the existing units are at best of marginal utility and at worst useless. But the point remains - Chaos has a large variety of troops and doesn't need anymore.
Concerning the second post quoted. cailus Play as you please, but I beg to differ on your assumption that the Codex is acceptable as "workable" by "every single 40K player." The screams of cheese regarding Iron Warriors has been around since the codex came out and people figured they could create an army without a single disadvantage. The Daemon bomb has also been extensively criticised as have certain unit combinations (e.g. Infiltrating Speed Princes). At the same time the codex is regarded as having a very poor Thousand Sons list and there is consensus that the way Berzerkers work is ridiculous. People have accepted it because it's the official codex. In fact often the only choice we've had is to refuse to play people using what are regarding as cheesy lists. Your club gives players a blank check to pick and choose whatever rules they like and that's fair enough. But don't assume that we all love the current Chaos codex.
The final quoted post. cailus I think that many Chaos players are being greedy and lax. For years they've had a powerful codex and now they're being forced to think how they play the game and they don't like it. Call this trolling but from what I've seen that seems to be the most common argument. People talk about Daemons but only seem to care about Bloodletters and Daemon Princes. People talk about the loss of units with specific regard to Basilisks. They're upset that they can't have infiltrating speed lords or that their Obliterators are now T4. They talk about the loss of flavour and the turning of Codex Chaos Marines into vanilla Marines yet they question why the Reaper Autocannon isn't going to be beefed up to match the Imperial assault cannon.
I personally am not amazingly worried about the loss of basilisks other than the usual problem of making people's models obsolete, to a more minor degree would be anything imperial marine with an autocannon. Obliterators are blobs of metal, weapon, armor, and marine fleshy organ stuff, yeah toughness 4 is an odd choice for that. Once again, if theyre too strong, leave the unit restriction and up the points. And I wanted to have a speed liutenant with four chaos hounds (remember when i asked about what I should model my hounds with?) yes people abuse that with demon summoning. So change demon summoning to the job of sqauds so people cant have one fast individual do it. Makes sense that a whole group of people chanting and lording over an icon would summon demons and not some ninja marine. Also removing the scattering of summoned demons is an advantage that id rather not see. Its chaos, and these are demons, made of the very essence of chaos, they shouldnt be predictable or reliable. SHould we have reliable orks as well? The very last sentence about reaper atocannons I dont get, I dont know if they made a typo or what, it doesnt seem to fit the rest of the paragraph.
Wow thats an assload of text. Either way hopefully thatll give you a better understanding of my (and others) problems with these changes, not change as a whole. Change is fine, however Im allowed to have an opinion on whether rumored changes are good or bad, and these rumors dont look that great to me.
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Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:14 pm
A.R.G.U.S Mykal
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
I know the rumored changes dont, thats why i made sure not to say death gaurd. Even in a nurgle point of view though i dont see it happening. And I see White Scars falling to Slaanesh honestly. As for being about the corsairs, as much as id like that, the cover art at least says otherwise. I went more into the nurgle bikers thing in the post to Jon as well. That didnt get a bolded first word, i think it was the paragraph before the Raptors one. As a nurgle fan, im curiouse of your opinions on it.
Agreed on termies. The only rumored changes I saw were them being a seperate entry, and one less heavy weapon i think.
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:08 am
Raises a hand to get a turn to speak.
Didn´t GW already uptaded the Codex: CSM back before the release of the new rulebook? neutral
This sounds like a way to piss-off CSM players by forcing them to buy another
new codex to me. sweatdrop
GW should be working on something more critically needet codex-updating,
rather then "re-invent the weel". rolleyes
I mean, hasn´t it been TOO damn long since Orcs got a new codex,
not the mention Dark Eldars?
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:49 am
King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
I know the rumored changes dont, thats why i made sure not to say death gaurd. Even in a nurgle point of view though i dont see it happening. And I see White Scars falling to Slaanesh honestly. As for being about the corsairs, as much as id like that, the cover art at least says otherwise. I went more into the nurgle bikers thing in the post to Jon as well. That didnt get a bolded first word, i think it was the paragraph before the Raptors one. As a nurgle fan, im curiouse of your opinions on it.
Agreed on termies. The only rumored changes I saw were them being a seperate entry, and one less heavy weapon i think.
I see where you're coming from about the Raptor's fluff compared the the proposed new Raptor's rules. (I read all your post, as well. That was quite an arseload of words.) The thing is, it could still be considered fluffy if you look at it from another perspective.
Old Codex: They fly in, do some damage, then fly out, ready for the next ones. New Codex: They fly in, destroy whoever with their large number of attacks.
Granted it could leave them out in the open, but it'll make the users of those units learn to not just jump, hit, jump. (Similar to that beardy Tau Battlesuit tactic we hear so much about.) It'll make them be used as more of a luring and herding unit, where the opponent keeps his men away because he could be within 18 inches of getting his squad diced. Think how Dark Eldar Mandrakes can be used effectively, and I'm working along those lines.
How do I feel about Nurgle? I feel that it's rather unfluffy. However, there are instances where there are also unfluffy bastardisations of other legions. After a search, I can't find my sodding Codex, so I might be wrong on these, seeing as I've never really focussed on the following legions:
Alpha Legion - Cultists, not really fans of daemons. I'm assuming it would be possible to have some infiltrating men and then drop some Daemon Bombs all around the enemy and rend them apart.
Word Bearers - They allow for 9 Troops slots, I think, so how many heavy bolters is that? 18? How many Plasma guns? Melta Guns? Those slots are meant to be reserved for Daemons, as per the fluff, but if you wanted you could easily go overboard on your men. Have the minimum number of men and the biggest number of heavy bolters, then sit back and roll your dice.
Iron Warriors - I think we all know how this turns out.
I have nothing wrong with the option being there, because the footslogging infantry and the lack of vehicles is primarily a teaching of Mortarion, and it's more to do with the things that he encountered before he was saved by the Emperor. The teachings of Father Nurgle are just to spread disease, contagion and death. I'm sure that if there was a Marine who had recently turned, who was devoted to both Nurgle and his bike, I'm sure he'd use one to work the other.
The same could be said of Tzeentch. The only Rubric Marines are those of the Thousand Sons, so any loyalist Librarian and his possé of Marines could be dedicated to Tzeentch and ride bikes, seeing as they're not soulless shells. (Although against my arguement, that could be represented by a converted Librarian with a mark of Tzeentch heading up a legion of undivided, as you can do that in the new one.)
I know that it's not all perfect though, seeing as a Khornate leader for a Slaanesi army is very unfluffy, but anyone who knows/likes Chaos won't bastardise the fluff that much.
And then, if in any doubt, then this should help any unbelievers. They've done it before, they'll probably do it again.
Edit: Sorry, this is quite an arseload of type as well. But mine's smaller and yellow, so you might want to highlight it. XD
-Mykal
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:50 pm
A.R.G.U.S Mykal King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
I know the rumored changes dont, thats why i made sure not to say death gaurd. Even in a nurgle point of view though i dont see it happening. And I see White Scars falling to Slaanesh honestly. As for being about the corsairs, as much as id like that, the cover art at least says otherwise. I went more into the nurgle bikers thing in the post to Jon as well. That didnt get a bolded first word, i think it was the paragraph before the Raptors one. As a nurgle fan, im curiouse of your opinions on it.
Agreed on termies. The only rumored changes I saw were them being a seperate entry, and one less heavy weapon i think.
I see where you're coming from about the Raptor's fluff compared the the proposed new Raptor's rules. (I read all your post, as well. That was quite an arseload of words.) The thing is, it could still be considered fluffy if you look at it from another perspective.
Old Codex: They fly in, do some damage, then fly out, ready for the next ones. New Codex: They fly in, destroy whoever with their large number of attacks.
Granted it could leave them out in the open, but it'll make the users of those units learn to not just jump, hit, jump. (Similar to that beardy Tau Battlesuit tactic we hear so much about.) It'll make them be used as more of a luring and herding unit, where the opponent keeps his men away because he could be within 18 inches of getting his squad diced. Think how Dark Eldar Mandrakes can be used effectively, and I'm working along those lines.
How do I feel about Nurgle? I feel that it's rather unfluffy. However, there are instances where there are also unfluffy bastardisations of other legions. After a search, I can't find my sodding Codex, so I might be wrong on these, seeing as I've never really focussed on the following legions:
Alpha Legion - Cultists, not really fans of daemons. I'm assuming it would be possible to have some infiltrating men and then drop some Daemon Bombs all around the enemy and rend them apart.
Word Bearers - They allow for 9 Troops slots, I think, so how many heavy bolters is that? 18? How many Plasma guns? Melta Guns? Those slots are meant to be reserved for Daemons, as per the fluff, but if you wanted you could easily go overboard on your men. Have the minimum number of men and the biggest number of heavy bolters, then sit back and roll your dice.
Iron Warriors - I think we all know how this turns out.
I have nothing wrong with the option being there, because the footslogging infantry and the lack of vehicles is primarily a teaching of Mortarion, and it's more to do with the things that he encountered before he was saved by the Emperor. The teachings of Father Nurgle are just to spread disease, contagion and death. I'm sure that if there was a Marine who had recently turned, who was devoted to both Nurgle and his bike, I'm sure he'd use one to work the other.
The same could be said of Tzeentch. The only Rubric Marines are those of the Thousand Sons, so any loyalist Librarian and his possé of Marines could be dedicated to Tzeentch and ride bikes, seeing as they're not soulless shells. (Although against my arguement, that could be represented by a converted Librarian with a mark of Tzeentch heading up a legion of undivided, as you can do that in the new one.)
I know that it's not all perfect though, seeing as a Khornate leader for a Slaanesi army is very unfluffy, but anyone who knows/likes Chaos won't bastardise the fluff that much.
And then, if in any doubt, then this should help any unbelievers. They've done it before, they'll probably do it again.
Edit: Sorry, this is quite an arseload of type as well. But mine's smaller and yellow, so you might want to highlight it. XD
-Mykal
On the raptors, it can still work, but it doesnt have that dexteric feal of hit and run. So its soemthing Id like to see stay.
Alpha Legion - you got them dead on, infact the codex says ONLY cultists may carry the icons. And they cant have demon lords or whatever.
Word Bearers - I think that could be fixed very easily. All theyd need is a rule saying that demons didnt take up a force organization slot and they have to take at least 2 units like Alaitoc armies had to with rangers.
Iron Warriors - 3nodding I can see that, I guess more than the bikes, its just seeing them losing the uniqueness of having true grit unlike the others. But it works with the whole vet feel. I guess its more feel no pain being added to T5 marines. If this does happen, its possible that therell be some downside, but it hasnt been mentioned in the rumors. If they wanted to make them stronger, Id like to see them be allowed to hold heavy weapons (same goes for rubric marines).
As for Tzeentch, agreed. And I always thought it annoying that you cant represent new converts to tzeentch, only the thousand sons.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:26 am
King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
I know the rumored changes dont, thats why i made sure not to say death gaurd. Even in a nurgle point of view though i dont see it happening. And I see White Scars falling to Slaanesh honestly. As for being about the corsairs, as much as id like that, the cover art at least says otherwise. I went more into the nurgle bikers thing in the post to Jon as well. That didnt get a bolded first word, i think it was the paragraph before the Raptors one. As a nurgle fan, im curiouse of your opinions on it.
Agreed on termies. The only rumored changes I saw were them being a seperate entry, and one less heavy weapon i think.
I see where you're coming from about the Raptor's fluff compared the the proposed new Raptor's rules. (I read all your post, as well. That was quite an arseload of words.) The thing is, it could still be considered fluffy if you look at it from another perspective.
Old Codex: They fly in, do some damage, then fly out, ready for the next ones. New Codex: They fly in, destroy whoever with their large number of attacks.
Granted it could leave them out in the open, but it'll make the users of those units learn to not just jump, hit, jump. (Similar to that beardy Tau Battlesuit tactic we hear so much about.) It'll make them be used as more of a luring and herding unit, where the opponent keeps his men away because he could be within 18 inches of getting his squad diced. Think how Dark Eldar Mandrakes can be used effectively, and I'm working along those lines.
How do I feel about Nurgle? I feel that it's rather unfluffy. However, there are instances where there are also unfluffy bastardisations of other legions. After a search, I can't find my sodding Codex, so I might be wrong on these, seeing as I've never really focussed on the following legions:
Alpha Legion - Cultists, not really fans of daemons. I'm assuming it would be possible to have some infiltrating men and then drop some Daemon Bombs all around the enemy and rend them apart.
Word Bearers - They allow for 9 Troops slots, I think, so how many heavy bolters is that? 18? How many Plasma guns? Melta Guns? Those slots are meant to be reserved for Daemons, as per the fluff, but if you wanted you could easily go overboard on your men. Have the minimum number of men and the biggest number of heavy bolters, then sit back and roll your dice.
Iron Warriors - I think we all know how this turns out.
I have nothing wrong with the option being there, because the footslogging infantry and the lack of vehicles is primarily a teaching of Mortarion, and it's more to do with the things that he encountered before he was saved by the Emperor. The teachings of Father Nurgle are just to spread disease, contagion and death. I'm sure that if there was a Marine who had recently turned, who was devoted to both Nurgle and his bike, I'm sure he'd use one to work the other.
The same could be said of Tzeentch. The only Rubric Marines are those of the Thousand Sons, so any loyalist Librarian and his possé of Marines could be dedicated to Tzeentch and ride bikes, seeing as they're not soulless shells. (Although against my arguement, that could be represented by a converted Librarian with a mark of Tzeentch heading up a legion of undivided, as you can do that in the new one.)
I know that it's not all perfect though, seeing as a Khornate leader for a Slaanesi army is very unfluffy, but anyone who knows/likes Chaos won't bastardise the fluff that much.
And then, if in any doubt, then this should help any unbelievers. They've done it before, they'll probably do it again.
Edit: Sorry, this is quite an arseload of type as well. But mine's smaller and yellow, so you might want to highlight it. XD
-Mykal
On the raptors, it can still work, but it doesnt have that dexteric feal of hit and run. So its soemthing Id like to see stay.
Alpha Legion - you got them dead on, infact the codex says ONLY cultists may carry the icons. And they cant have demon lords or whatever.
Word Bearers - I think that could be fixed very easily. All theyd need is a rule saying that demons didnt take up a force organization slot and they have to take at least 2 units like Alaitoc armies had to with rangers.
Iron Warriors - 3nodding I can see that, I guess more than the bikes, its just seeing them losing the uniqueness of having true grit unlike the others. But it works with the whole vet feel. I guess its more feel no pain being added to T5 marines. If this does happen, its possible that therell be some downside, but it hasnt been mentioned in the rumors. If they wanted to make them stronger, Id like to see them be allowed to hold heavy weapons (same goes for rubric marines).
As for Tzeentch, agreed. And I always thought it annoying that you cant represent new converts to tzeentch, only the thousand sons.
I think it'd be very good if they allow you to use allies - like Marines get Witch Hunters and Darmonhunters (and though process, Imperial Guard units also), so that you can have a largely Chaos army, and then have some Normal guardmen (ableit evil and twisted). That would be a good way to represdent the newer armies.
Something similar to the LatD army list, but without the need for "Big Mutants". That sounded far too 90s. Y'know? Where "Toxic sludge" was normally the big bad thing in cartoons.
-Mykal
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:48 am
Mini-quoting again… King Kento
Im going to cover youre little post first so i dont forget it. Model freedom is not a benefit of generic demon lists. There was no reason you couldnt do that anyways. Ive seen some skaven thingies in robes used as plague demons very effectively. Skaven rat bases for nurglings. And of course there're the comedy armies. As long as you can make distinctions and things are represented, you have model freedom, you dont need a rule change to make models you like.No I can’t. I can’t field horrors because the models are pretty, and then say they represent bloodletters because the horrors rules suck a** - that's very specifically against WYSIWYG. In the coming Codex, I can field whatever models I want without being “gimped” by it. King Kento
Back to he original post of yours. Yes it does have bearing. We're not looking at stand alone quality, we're looking at these rules compared to their old ones. thats the point. This isnt a new army being added to the game, this is replacing a list.I just don’t agree with this, and it’s actually crux of my belief. The Codexes do not exist concurrently and should not be compared to one another, but rather to the remainder of the active army lists. By comparing one abstract representation of background to another abstract representation of the same background, you’re based your opinions on change alone, instead of judging the Codex on its own merits and flaws alone. King Kento No one came here for you to try and ruin their credibility and attack their ability to form an opinion. Its a 40k thread, and we come here to discuss that. Further Im on you about this, because you arent making distinctions, I do not like the rumored rules and hope that theyre not the ones thatll actually happen. I have however not opposed every codex and every change in 40k, or change as a whole anyways, but Im labeled as some "naysayer" because you like the changes. That’s a very fair point. I’m not attacking anyone – or at least that’s not my intent – I just call them as I see them. I don’t believe comparing a new Codex to its previous version is a valid comparison when it comes to actually playing the game, and thusly shouldn’t be used to justify resistance to change. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the the only valid judgements that can be made against a Codex are made objectively based on the game impact of the book, without being biased by its previous incarnations. Based on this (that is, the idea that we don’t see eye-to-eye on the basis of the very comparison), I just don’t see how we can even advance beyond this point – which is why I avoided it in the first place. ...I wrote individual responses to each following point, but I didn't feel I could justify it after those last few statements. I'm making a concerted effort to be less bull-headed. rofl
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