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 Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:35 pm
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:16 pm
*Takes a swooping, dramatic bow*
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:55 pm
xLady Tsukiyox If a Muslim were to make a law saying that all women were to wear a hijab I wouldn't have a problem with it. I mean as a woman of Russian descent, many Russian women young and old wear a head covering, it's meant for modesty but it also keeps your ears from getting cold. And if you're in the desert it keeps scorpions from attacking you. So really the hijab has many purposes and can be beneficial to different parts of the country that has harsh summers and very harsh winters. Not only that but hijabs are very pretty. :3 Also, somewhere in the Bible it says that women have to wear headcoverings as a part of repenting for Eve's sin or something. And there are Israeli women, who do wear hijabs. It's not just a Muslim thing but it's a cultural thing. If a Christian were to make a similar saying that all women had to wear them would you feel the same way?
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:31 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup So then isn't it convenient for your that the parts of the bible that verify your beliefs are the true wishes of God, but those that you don't agree with not aplicable to you?
And moral laws? Deuteronomy 13: 6-9 tells us to kill people who invite us to worship other gods. Kill them without pity.
But that is unthinkable and barbaric in modern society.
Or for examples in the NT, 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 reinforces that women should be submissive and obedient to men.
No, it's silly to take some parts of the bible literally and completely ignore others.
And not just taxes. The specific problem that has affected people I know is citizenship.
If you fall in love with a man who is not an American citizen (assuming that you are one) and you marry him, he becomes an American citizen automatically.
But say two men fall in love and want to marry and one is not a citizen, he can not marry into citizenship, or at least not to the person he's in love with, if same-sex marriage is banned.
And I boldly say that if there is a God who created everyone with a purpose then He is for homosexuality.
If He created us then He created homosexuality.
It's not a choice. Your sexuality is part of who you are. Anyone who's been "cured" was either not gay to begin with or is being forced into a lifestyle that is unnatural to him because he was taught to be ashamed of who he is.
It's just... That kind of logic is what keeps teenagers hiding who they are because they think that they should feel shame over something that 1) they can't control and 2) is part of who they are.
It's just really sad and unfortunate.
Either way, your opinion is your opinion, but same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone.
You don't have to support it, but actively trying to ban it or keep it banned denies people rights.
They're not children. You may not agree with it, but at least let people decide for themselves.
Creationism requires blind faith.
You can't really test creationism.
And many religions have ideas on how man came to be. It's impossible to teach them all.
Maybe in a religious class. Or like I said, by the parents or church.
But in, say, a public school biology class, it doesn't belong.
I don't intend to force beliefs away from people or force them to believe something contrary to their religion.
But creationism is religion and religion should never be taught as fact in public schools.
I believe that religion simply isn't for everyone.
For some people, it's an amazing thing and works perfectly with who they are, inspiring them to be good for their creator and giving them reason to live.
For others, Christianity specifically (but many religions have some form of punishment) threatens punishment to those too juvenile and selfish to change who they are for any reason other then to avoid getting caught and scares them just enough to change their behavior.
But to people like me who seek answers and want to learn and question without boundries, His existance is inconsistant and simply doesn't make sense. And how can we worship something that we're convinced is a convenient lie?
Which brings me to my next group that is a problem specifically in Christianity: Those with other gods and other faiths who have no place in Christianity. Your religion makes it very difficult to accept these people as it tells you that they are going to Hell. And if you get too close to them, they might turn you from God. So one option is to keep them as outsiders. But if you're a good Christian then you should save them. And the only way to do that is by completely disrespecting their privacy and forcing them to see it your way.
So I don't believe there is one possible solution to make the whole world better people and respect their freedom.
And your take on Christianity saying that we can never truly be good people is one of the reasons I could never follow Christianity.
What you said about Him making people feel complete, I see this in many religious people, not just Christains.
And I think I would be much happier if I did believe in a god.
But if I could force myself to believe in a god, it would not be YHWH.
It seems that so much of Him is cruelty and anger and judgement.
And if I did turn to a religion, it would not be Christianity.
It seems that so much of Christianity is shame and guilt and groveling.
And while I could understand someone being raised in Christianity feeling comfort in it, I could never see myself turning to it by choice.
I know that's a little harsh. I'm not trying to offend you, only to present my feelings so that you might understand why I can not turn to Christianity.
And Ghandi would not have been a Christian... >.< Not at all. If I went by what I wanted, I'd give in and say gay people should get married. I'd also practice witchcraft, and read Harry Potter. I'm honestly doing my best to follow the Bible as closely as I can, and I admit I fail at times. That was to keep the Jewish nation from turning to other gods which they did on a regular basis. And there's a documentary on about that tonight, so I'll give an opinion after I've seen it. And btw, homosexuality is a rather minor point in the Bible. I've never heard a sermon preached on it, and I didn't even know about it until middle school. Considering that, it's not that important to me. I love gays and hope they find what's best for them, but I'm still against their marriage. No. He didn't create disease, or mental illness, greed or pollution or sin. Homosexuality counts as one of those. He called it an abomination for a reason, and I firmly believe anyone who wants deliverance from it will recieve it. I'm gonna put it like this: I have Asperger's. I like that it makes me think differently, but it impairs me socially. I don't think Asperger's was in the original plan, and but I do think He'll use my trial for His good, and that He's the reason it hasn't completely impaired me. Is Asperger's good? No. Should it be healed? Yes. Are there useful aspects that come from this trial? Yes. It's degrading the morals of my country, and it's hurting those who practice it. I realize it's these people's choice, but I still think it's bad for them, and the country. Biology and micro evolution I agree with, but I disagree with the macro-evolution. They can't really explain how a cell becomes a tissue, the odds are a number too high for me to write across a page, and I don't see it in bacteria to form tissue, or how male and female sex organs would cause a mutation at the right time to make sex work. And they still can't explain sleep because they're trying to do it from a biological perspective. I think people sleep because when God said 'you will die' He meant spiritually and eventually physically and on a regular basis at night. And there's more science. Read Case for a Creator, and get back to me. I believe it is. >.< It says right in the Bible it won't make sense to the someone thinking only physically, but a spiritual man will get it. I think you're thinking physically (or in the flesh. That's the word that's actually used). No, they don't. I live that problem. I used to worry like crazy for unsaved people, but I'm coming to the point where I trust God, and I just try to do what He wants me to, and what I know is right. I don't see it as forcing, I see it as trying to show people something amazing, something that could change their life. If you had a panacea, would you keep it from the public? And if you knew someone had cancer and tried to give them that panacea, and they told you to stop forcing your cure on them, would you? And this is way bigger then that. Christians are trying to bring others to a being who not only gives you new and better life after you die, but who also loves you no matter what you do. He supported my mom for 30 years (she's had a hard life) and despite the fact life's tough, He keeps me going, and He means as much or more to me as my little sister and mom do. He's real. Plus there can only be one truth. If someone told you they didn't like that the sun was yellow and average and decided to believe it was a red giant, you'd call them crazy, wouldn't you? Well that's also what it's like to me. Again, I do. Even the best societies fail. I really think if everyone met Him, the world would become a utopia. Society again. Even in the 'good' countries' you still see a lot of strife, and poverty and greed. It's like that with people. You may be an Ethiopia's or an America, but both could use something that would take care of all the poor, give all the people their passions, make everyone feel loved, etc. Ethiopia's actually more likely to get it though, because they'd be desperate for it, and America would miss out and decline as all all civilizations eventually do. It's a weird metaphor, and I'll try a different one if that doesn't work, but to my twisted mind it makes sense. Christianity is release from those. You can only serve one of two masters, and that means either Satan or God. And out of the blue question:if you could find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, He is good, He loves you, and He died for you and it's the Christian God, would you want to know? Because if you say yes, it makes it his responsibility (if He's real) to tell you. And from the quote I kinda think so...I'll read a few biographies on him eventually and figure it out then.
But it's impossible to follow everything in the bible literally, and no one can ever claim that they do.
Like that part in Deuteronomy, say what you will about it, but it's still there. In the bible. Just because something's in the bible doesn't mean you should blindly follow it, even in Christianity.
And if homosexuality is not important, then why do people sharing your views go to such lengths to make sure that people are denied rights?
Do you even have a reason other than "it's in the bible" for why it's wrong?
Any solid, objective reasoning at all?
And if not, wrap your mind around this:
I am an atheist. By Christianity's definition I commit many sins daily which I feel no remourse over because they are not bad to me.
But regardless, I am legally an adult and can marry another atheist sharing my beliefs.
Not only that, but I can do it within a day of meeting him if I wanted.
I could walk into a church and say "I BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOD IS A LIE!", blaspheme the name of the Lord and still get married.
And no one's fighting to take away my right to marry, as long as it's to a man.
Christianity does not have monopoly over marriage.
Well first of all, He did create all of those (greed, sin, mental illness, etc.) directly or indirectly.
Sin comes from Adam and Eve eating from the tree and being cast out of Eden?
But he put the tree there!!!
He who is all-knowing and all-powerful put a tree with two simple, stupid beings who don't know right or wrong and said "Oh, don't eat from that."
And not only that, he aslo put a talking serpent there who was much more clever than either of the beings who could easily convince them to eat from the tree because God made them stupid.
I'm saying that that was His bad...
And I'm assuming that you're saying that homosexuality is a sin, not implying that it is a disease.
Well by your own definition, sin causes us to feel disconnected from God?
But I know gay men who are very happy.
The only reason they would feel guilty for being gay is from being constantly told by Christianity that they should feel shame!
And if you were implying that homosexuality is a disease, I'll just say without getting angry: That's a pretty bold assertion. Proof?
And the morals of your country? You're American, yes?
Separation of Church and State.
I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread before. People came to America fleeing religious persecution.
It's unconstitutional to write laws forcing people to conform to a religion.
I'm thinking logically.
Logically, religion usually only makes sense to theists.
Again, I'm not saying that children should be forced to believe evolution, but Creationism has no part in public schools.
It's religion.
And again, I am not a Christian.
Saying that something's in the bible doesn't mean anything to me.
Your analogies don't accurately explain pushing Christianity on somebody.
Like from my perspective your cure analogy is like if I knew someone with cancer and so I tried to force them to put on my lucky hat.
I could be so very sure that it works.
And it might work.
But there's no logical evidence and to a person who doesn't think in terms of luck it's completely ridiculous.
And your sun example, God is not sitting in the sky for all to see, demanding that we worship Him.
All He did was leave us a very very very old book that has been translated, added to, and edited uncountless times with no objective proof of His will or even His existence.
If Christianity does turn out to have the answer, then it offers some amazing rewards to it's believers, and it makes sense for people to want to believe it, but it doesn't do anything to prove that it has the answer.
And saying if everyone met him, the world would be a better place.
Well that's a pretty big "if".
And if I could find out without a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, and all of His/Her/Its/Their qualities and what He/She/It/They wants from us, I would take that opportunity in a second.
I spent a huge chunk of my high school years trying to figure out just that.
But I have, through years of my own reasoning, decided that there is probably no god, certainly not a God who wants to be known and worshiped, and definitely absolutely, without, any doubt in my mind the God can not exist exactly as Christianity explains him.But I'm trying not to pick and choose. I think if you're going to believe the Bible, you have to believe in it all, even if certain things no longer apply because Jesus fulfilled the law. And I wouldn't say 'blindly'. I've come to a place where I've decided to believe the entire Bible, and follow whatever parts Jesus hasn't fulfilled. I'm not actually sure...remember, I don't usually post about homosexuality. The first thing I said was really my opinion, and while I'm sure there are other Christians who are really passionate about the subject and could give you most of the answers, I'm not one of them. I realize that, except there's certain churches who wouldn't let you get married there unless you were of their faith. Plus one way they're endorsing a sin, and the other way they're just letting a sinner get married, and most Christians still consider themselves to be sinners. So there's a difference. Nope, those came about in His abscene. And yeah, He put the Tree of Conscience there because there had to be a choice. Love requires that. And I think Satan slipped into the Garden in the form of a serpant and created all the strife. And I doubt they were that stupid. I think they were more naive then anything... And it cost Him His Son, so He paid a price for it too you know. Happy doesn't always mean being connected to God. God grants peace, love, joy, life, but at the same time, He never said we wouldn't suffer. He also grants eternal life, which to means all those thins without the pain and evil. To me, that'd be way more worth it then being with anyone on this earth. And I'm not implying that, but there is an argument fior that-if it's really in their genes, that's not the way nature meant them to be. Nature's all for procreation, so if you wanted to argue that being homosexual's bad and not the way nature meant them to be, you could. But the original laws were written according to the Ten Commandments, and they're the ones who originally outlawed homosexuality. They weren't for that much freedom. And Freedom of Speech was a term used to assure a Christian church they wouldn't have to conform to the governments church. It was originally used to protect religion from state, not the other way around. So basically all thiests are delusional because we're thinking spiritually? Either there is a supernatural side to the universe and we're smarter for recognizing that, or there isn't and we're all delusional/brainwashed. And if there isn't, life is pointless. And I still believe it does, or else neither should be taught. And it means everything to me and is really the only place I can come from. Well I guess that's really the thing. Unless you're willing to believe the accounts of people who have died and come back (and there's been books about it. There was one by a man who died and they brought him back, and he wrote a book about what he saw. Do you want the title?), or you have that revelation, you can't tell that the 'lucky hat' really is a panacea. In the supernatural, there's a war going on, and it's being fought for the sake of manking. And as for that book...the Jewish nation burned false copies of the Torah. It was kept sacred. There's books written about the Bible's accuracy. Would you like me to find a few titles for you? The Holy Spirit moves in people, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, much of the advice in the Bible is proven to be true today, certain strange facts like the Lord existing before time can be made to make sense when you see that time started with the Big Bang, people's lives are changed by it...you don't get so many believers without a religion having some truth, and before you even bring up other religions, I'm also gonna say that all religions have some truth. Christianity just has the whole truth. So it is, but it's also impossible on this plane of existance. For now it's a fantasy. Then challenge God: say if You're real, show me. He might not do it in a way you like, but if He's real, He should show you.
Because there are a few in the Old Testiment that I've seen Christians use when the book doesn't apply to Christians, like you said.
And then there are parts in the New Testiment which still has parts that most Christians still don't follow, like keeping women subservient to men and out of teaching in churches, in the same books as those quotes.
And if you don't know too much about homosexuality and just believe it's wrong because you are told that you should, then I urge you to reconsider or at least get educated and form your own view!
Whatever you choose to believe is fine as long as it applies only to you.
But same sex marriage greatly affects a huge portion of the country directly.
I'd think atheism is far worse.
Two men or women can be in a relationship and still be Christian.
By your definition, they sin. But by your definition again, everyone is a sinner.
Atheism is often in direct opposition to Christianity.
Outside of this guild and unless among close friends I prefer to keep my opinions to myself and never demean or talk down to anyone because of their religion.
But many other atheists that I know are not so concerned with being respectful to others and openly make fun of religion.
And many atheists, especially those of us who came from Christianity, resent Christianity.
And what's more, a gay couple can adopt. But there's no gay way to raise a kid. You can't teach a child to love one gender over the other. If you could, homosexuality would be a much smaller issue.
But I can make a baby. I can make as many as I want. And I can raise them all to be little atheists. And I can raise them to be pretentious and insulting towards theists.
I guess my point is, I don't understand why people are so opposed to same-sex marriage when there are comparitively way worse things threatening Christian marriage.
The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument is complete bull because America has completely destroyed that all on its own.
My theory is that it just has publicity.
Or maybe the topic of homosexuality just makes people uneasy and they're trying to rationalize it.
But it completely astounds me when in this day and age people are still so closed-minded about it.
But he did not give the beings he created the knowledge to know!
And love? He gave them a tree that would cause them and all of their children and their children's children endless suffering when eaten, and that's love?
But when they inevitably eat from the tree, he kicks them out forever and curses them and all of their children with said suffering forever?
And that's a popular theory, but God let him?
And if it was Satan who tricked them, then again, why was God not at all understanding to His creations who He allowed to be tricked?
Yes, they were naive. But so that they could not debate the reasoning for or againts not eating from the tree until after they ate from the tree.
I stand by my assertion that he could have avoided the entire thing. Numerous times.
He must have been powerful, He is God. And if He is God then He is all-knowing.
It's like that neat little Epicurus paradox:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then He is not omipotent.
Is He able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.
Is He neither willing nor able?
Then why call him a God?"
And again, the argument that being good will get you in to heaven is only worth anything if you're a Christian.
And even so, there are many Christians who do not believe that homosexuality is wrong.
So even for them, that logic doesn't stand up.
And anyone sharing your logic who is gay will undoubtedly abstain from finding his or her love with precicely that reasoning, whether or not same-sex marriage is legalized in their state, as sad as it may be.
And for people who don't follow Christianity, well do you think not letting them marry will stop them from having sex?
You're not saving or damning anyone either way. Keeping it banned only hurts people.
I can see how you could argue that.
I've actually seen that point argued on both sides and don't have much of an opinion of my own on it.
But I wouldn't go so far as to attatch the word "bad" or "disease" to it.
Well again, which quotes specifically are you talking about?
And for Separation of Church and State, it goes both ways. Keep religion and government separate.
Whether you like it or not, America is becoming more and more defined by it's amazing diversity.
And isn't freedom kind of important in America?
No matter who you wish to save, it's not right to force saving on anyone.
It's like, say separation of church and state did not exist.
And a Muslim man holds some kind of office in your state and makes a law, with the best of intentions, that women must dress in hijab and cover everything but their face and hands. Not to restrict your rights, but to bring you closer to God and protect you from men. You should be thanking him, right?
Well in your culture, that doesn't make sense. And it restricts your rights. If you believe that dressing modestly brings you closer to God, you'll make that decision on your own.
And that's just a minor inconvenience to you.
What if someone again comes to enough power to make laws and this person believes that Jesus was not the son of God and, what's more, believing so and worshiping Him as God is blasphemy.
So he makes it that worshiping Jesus is illegal. You should thank him, he kept you from angering God.
No, again, you should have that freedom to make that call on your own.
That's the beauty of separation of church and state.
It's pretty arrogant to not only assume that you know best and then force your beliefs on others because of that, no matter how sure you are that you're right.
No, Creationism and Evolution aren't equal.
One is a tested scientific theory.
One is a religious idea that requires blind faith.
It really doesn't matter that they oppose eachother.
The only thing that matters is that one is a science and widely accepted by the scientific community and should be taught in science class.
You wouldn't expect me to walk into a sunday school class waving The Origin of Species saying "Well, to be fair, if you're going to teach creationism, you have to teach the alternative," would you?
No, because evolution isn't a religious idea.
And again, separation of church and state.
Creationism is religion.
Even if it was science, it's religion.
And I can never believe blindly something that I could probably find the answer to with a little perserverence and science.
Isn't it just as possible that those people are hallucinating?
You're likely to hallucinate things that you know. For example, I doubt someone with absolutely no exposure to Christianity would "see" Saint Peter in a near death experience.
And I know there is a reason why people see a bright light when they're about to die... but I don't remember what it was so I won't make an a** out of myself by pretending that I do.
My point is, usually those answers can be found with a little bit of digging in psychology and the like.
And they're generally less comforting...
But much more fascinating.
And the bible has been translated and added to many times.
To believe it hasn't been changed at all is naive.
And it's full of contradictions, mostly with the stories but those don't interest me very much.
Actually though the one I was thinking about in the Muslim thread was the one that I've been using so much in this thread, Deuteronomy 13: 6-9, but I couldn't find it back then.
It's after the Ten Commandments.
And it's full of inconsistancies.
Like, for example, how in the bible YHWH would speek to the masses in a booming voice and perform great shows of power like giant floods.
But once these primative creations of His got advanced enough in science that they could record these great miracles, He just stopped?
Or on the flood, Noah building the Arc?
How is it possible to get all of the animals on earth?
And to fit all of them on an arc?
And take care of each and every one of them?
Again, no one should take the bible 100% literally...
I believe that parts of the bible are true.
You should be a good person.
You should help others.
You should not kill.
You should try to be Christ-like.
But I feel that people so often overlook those and fall into the dogma surrounding Christianity...
Haha, they are so unlike your Christ.
That's the understanding I always had of that specific Ghandi quote...
If you really want to know why I think Christianity had so many followers...
Well, I can't possibly tell you without offending you.
I did make that challenge though. Before I officially left my religion.
He did not accept.1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I'm also gonna refer to Genesis where Lot protected two guests of his house from being raped. This is also the book where the law against incest appears for the first time, which I would almost say implies a connection between incest being evil, and homosexuality being evil. They're bothe wrong, and at one time would've been unquestionably wrong. Is there gonna come a time when we say it's okay for brother's and sister's to marry? That's not the only reason I believe it's wrong. It's not that I'm completely uninformed, it's that I'm not passionate about the subject. It's one thing to point out how good my God is (that matters), it's another to go into a huge argument where I don't hold the popular opinion, over something that isn't even mentioned that much in the Bible. Well nothing can be done against athiesm, except prayer and witnessing. The only other options are brainwashing, or force, and I don't know any Christian who would support either method. I wouldn't. However, we have a law against a recognizable sin. The church is certainly going to fight to keep that law. And there is in a way: I wouldn't be surprised to find that some becaome gay to expiriment, and not because they really are. That bugs me, but truth be told, I'd be bugged to find anyone embrace a value for fun or entertainment, not just homosexuality. It just especially bugs me with homosexuality. What knowledge? He told them, don't eat from the Tree or you'll die. We don't even know if it went further then that. Maybe they didn't ask any questions. I guess there's no knowing until we can ask Him ourselves. Sin nature. All human beings do wrong. While they're babies though, they still know Him, and if they die, they go to be with Him. It's what I believe felt 'off' to me and my sins when we went to our mom and said something felt wrong. I still disagree. An innocent being can reason and think, and judge consequences. Oh, and did you notice Eve take the Lord's words and twist them a bit, by saying they couldn't even touch the fruit? I have my own theory about that. I think the reason the gift of choice was so great was that God gave us the ability to do things even He couldn't predict. One of the psalms says He placed man a little lower then Himself, and I think the gift of choice is part of that. I also found a good metaphor, which was basically compared God's Will to a sonnet's form. The sonnet has strict form, and if you don't keep to it, then it's not a sonnet, however within that form, you have complete freedom. I think it's like that with our lives. Plus if He destroys evil now, He's gotta destroy all men, even the Saved ones too, because of their sin nature. There will be a final battle, where the Saved shall go be with Him, and all that is evil shall be cast into the lake of fire. Only God the Father knows when that is though. Would you rather sex without marriage be banned? At the risk of sounding really horrible and a prude, I'd like that. I don't agree with it being everywhere, and with everyone my age doing it, and while I don't want it enforced with death, I do kinda wish it were against the law. I haven't, I just felt like pointing the argument out. That's not how it was used in the original letter. It's been about half a year since I looked up the subject, but I'll try and find a source if you want it. I like cultural diversity. That doesn't apply to homosexuals in my opinion. I also like diversity in thinking, but I still don't think it applies. Racial diversity is good too. I have no problems with anyone being the way they are because their born with, excepting that if it's a disease it should be healed, and if it's evil it did not come from them naturally and so should be stopped. We have freedom. I just finished a book about a princess in Saudi Arabia. They have no freedom whatsoever. I am so sickened by it I can't tell you. At the same time I'm not in favor of total freedom. That's anarchy. In freedom, as in most things, there needs to be a balence. And according to the Bible, you're either a slave to yourself (and Satan) or you're God's slave. Personally I choose God, because He'll take care of me, even when I fall down. I may come to hate myself, but He'll always love me. That could happen, but laws in this country have to go through a lengthy process (from what I can remember), and the law couldn't be enforced without a large enough Muslim population, nor would it be followed. i wouldn't wear a hijab even if someone beat me. And by the way, the Koran doesn't ever say the hijab necessary. The Bible outright states homosexuality is wrong. Actually, if they did that, I'd worship Him anyways and take any punishment that came my way. I feel disgusted, but glad that I could serve my Lord by being a martyr. And I heard a speaker say he wanted that to happen, because when that happened it'd mean people were taking us seriously. Actually if you read the works of Darwin and his followers you'll see a lot of 'I thinks' and 'perhapses', and Darwin said at the end of his life he was wrong. I think evolution takes more faith. It has not been tested and proven, that's why it's theory. And school is (supposed to be) based around learning and thinking. A good two-sided argument would encourage that. Chrurch, however, is based around getting closer to God and fellowshipping with other Christians. The Origin of the Species would not encourage that. So we should keep something out of schools that may be true and might help kids think because everyone's panicked about a phrase used in a letter 200 years ago? I think it's almost wimpy of our educational system , the way it avoids controversial subjects, like life and death and were people made or born. I doubt it, but I suppose if you're looking for any other explanation. Translated, yes. Added to, no. I think I've said before that any flawed copies of the Torah were burned. As for the Bible, I just got a book on the history of the church. I'm gonna take a look at that before I go into the Bible not being added to. When does He speak in a 'booming voice'? And big things still happen. Just because they have a scientific explantion doesn't mean they're against each other. If God wants to use science, He can. Plus miracles still happen. I brought up a few, but you said there was no proof they were from God. I think it could happen, and I'll look up the volume of the animals compared to the Ark at some point, and get back to you. I still don't see why not.^^ I think Gandhi meant a lot of Christians are hypocrites, and forget the Law of Agape. You can tell me. As long as you don't mean something in an insulting sort of way, I won't take offense, and I tend to forgive easily. He did, I bet, but He does things in His own time. Since you made the challenge the ball is in His court, and you're in far better hands then mine. ^_^
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:05 am
What does Jesus tell us about homosexuality EternallyBlue?
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:04 am
xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup So then isn't it convenient for your that the parts of the bible that verify your beliefs are the true wishes of God, but those that you don't agree with not aplicable to you?
And moral laws? Deuteronomy 13: 6-9 tells us to kill people who invite us to worship other gods. Kill them without pity.
But that is unthinkable and barbaric in modern society.
Or for examples in the NT, 1 Timothy 2: 9-15 reinforces that women should be submissive and obedient to men.
No, it's silly to take some parts of the bible literally and completely ignore others.
And not just taxes. The specific problem that has affected people I know is citizenship.
If you fall in love with a man who is not an American citizen (assuming that you are one) and you marry him, he becomes an American citizen automatically.
But say two men fall in love and want to marry and one is not a citizen, he can not marry into citizenship, or at least not to the person he's in love with, if same-sex marriage is banned.
And I boldly say that if there is a God who created everyone with a purpose then He is for homosexuality.
If He created us then He created homosexuality.
It's not a choice. Your sexuality is part of who you are. Anyone who's been "cured" was either not gay to begin with or is being forced into a lifestyle that is unnatural to him because he was taught to be ashamed of who he is.
It's just... That kind of logic is what keeps teenagers hiding who they are because they think that they should feel shame over something that 1) they can't control and 2) is part of who they are.
It's just really sad and unfortunate.
Either way, your opinion is your opinion, but same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone.
You don't have to support it, but actively trying to ban it or keep it banned denies people rights.
They're not children. You may not agree with it, but at least let people decide for themselves.
Creationism requires blind faith.
You can't really test creationism.
And many religions have ideas on how man came to be. It's impossible to teach them all.
Maybe in a religious class. Or like I said, by the parents or church.
But in, say, a public school biology class, it doesn't belong.
I don't intend to force beliefs away from people or force them to believe something contrary to their religion.
But creationism is religion and religion should never be taught as fact in public schools.
I believe that religion simply isn't for everyone.
For some people, it's an amazing thing and works perfectly with who they are, inspiring them to be good for their creator and giving them reason to live.
For others, Christianity specifically (but many religions have some form of punishment) threatens punishment to those too juvenile and selfish to change who they are for any reason other then to avoid getting caught and scares them just enough to change their behavior.
But to people like me who seek answers and want to learn and question without boundries, His existance is inconsistant and simply doesn't make sense. And how can we worship something that we're convinced is a convenient lie?
Which brings me to my next group that is a problem specifically in Christianity: Those with other gods and other faiths who have no place in Christianity. Your religion makes it very difficult to accept these people as it tells you that they are going to Hell. And if you get too close to them, they might turn you from God. So one option is to keep them as outsiders. But if you're a good Christian then you should save them. And the only way to do that is by completely disrespecting their privacy and forcing them to see it your way.
So I don't believe there is one possible solution to make the whole world better people and respect their freedom.
And your take on Christianity saying that we can never truly be good people is one of the reasons I could never follow Christianity.
What you said about Him making people feel complete, I see this in many religious people, not just Christains.
And I think I would be much happier if I did believe in a god.
But if I could force myself to believe in a god, it would not be YHWH.
It seems that so much of Him is cruelty and anger and judgement.
And if I did turn to a religion, it would not be Christianity.
It seems that so much of Christianity is shame and guilt and groveling.
And while I could understand someone being raised in Christianity feeling comfort in it, I could never see myself turning to it by choice.
I know that's a little harsh. I'm not trying to offend you, only to present my feelings so that you might understand why I can not turn to Christianity.
And Ghandi would not have been a Christian... >.< Not at all. If I went by what I wanted, I'd give in and say gay people should get married. I'd also practice witchcraft, and read Harry Potter. I'm honestly doing my best to follow the Bible as closely as I can, and I admit I fail at times. That was to keep the Jewish nation from turning to other gods which they did on a regular basis. And there's a documentary on about that tonight, so I'll give an opinion after I've seen it. And btw, homosexuality is a rather minor point in the Bible. I've never heard a sermon preached on it, and I didn't even know about it until middle school. Considering that, it's not that important to me. I love gays and hope they find what's best for them, but I'm still against their marriage. No. He didn't create disease, or mental illness, greed or pollution or sin. Homosexuality counts as one of those. He called it an abomination for a reason, and I firmly believe anyone who wants deliverance from it will recieve it. I'm gonna put it like this: I have Asperger's. I like that it makes me think differently, but it impairs me socially. I don't think Asperger's was in the original plan, and but I do think He'll use my trial for His good, and that He's the reason it hasn't completely impaired me. Is Asperger's good? No. Should it be healed? Yes. Are there useful aspects that come from this trial? Yes. It's degrading the morals of my country, and it's hurting those who practice it. I realize it's these people's choice, but I still think it's bad for them, and the country. Biology and micro evolution I agree with, but I disagree with the macro-evolution. They can't really explain how a cell becomes a tissue, the odds are a number too high for me to write across a page, and I don't see it in bacteria to form tissue, or how male and female sex organs would cause a mutation at the right time to make sex work. And they still can't explain sleep because they're trying to do it from a biological perspective. I think people sleep because when God said 'you will die' He meant spiritually and eventually physically and on a regular basis at night. And there's more science. Read Case for a Creator, and get back to me. I believe it is. >.< It says right in the Bible it won't make sense to the someone thinking only physically, but a spiritual man will get it. I think you're thinking physically (or in the flesh. That's the word that's actually used). No, they don't. I live that problem. I used to worry like crazy for unsaved people, but I'm coming to the point where I trust God, and I just try to do what He wants me to, and what I know is right. I don't see it as forcing, I see it as trying to show people something amazing, something that could change their life. If you had a panacea, would you keep it from the public? And if you knew someone had cancer and tried to give them that panacea, and they told you to stop forcing your cure on them, would you? And this is way bigger then that. Christians are trying to bring others to a being who not only gives you new and better life after you die, but who also loves you no matter what you do. He supported my mom for 30 years (she's had a hard life) and despite the fact life's tough, He keeps me going, and He means as much or more to me as my little sister and mom do. He's real. Plus there can only be one truth. If someone told you they didn't like that the sun was yellow and average and decided to believe it was a red giant, you'd call them crazy, wouldn't you? Well that's also what it's like to me. Again, I do. Even the best societies fail. I really think if everyone met Him, the world would become a utopia. Society again. Even in the 'good' countries' you still see a lot of strife, and poverty and greed. It's like that with people. You may be an Ethiopia's or an America, but both could use something that would take care of all the poor, give all the people their passions, make everyone feel loved, etc. Ethiopia's actually more likely to get it though, because they'd be desperate for it, and America would miss out and decline as all all civilizations eventually do. It's a weird metaphor, and I'll try a different one if that doesn't work, but to my twisted mind it makes sense. Christianity is release from those. You can only serve one of two masters, and that means either Satan or God. And out of the blue question:if you could find out beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, He is good, He loves you, and He died for you and it's the Christian God, would you want to know? Because if you say yes, it makes it his responsibility (if He's real) to tell you. And from the quote I kinda think so...I'll read a few biographies on him eventually and figure it out then.
But it's impossible to follow everything in the bible literally, and no one can ever claim that they do.
Like that part in Deuteronomy, say what you will about it, but it's still there. In the bible. Just because something's in the bible doesn't mean you should blindly follow it, even in Christianity.
And if homosexuality is not important, then why do people sharing your views go to such lengths to make sure that people are denied rights?
Do you even have a reason other than "it's in the bible" for why it's wrong?
Any solid, objective reasoning at all?
And if not, wrap your mind around this:
I am an atheist. By Christianity's definition I commit many sins daily which I feel no remourse over because they are not bad to me.
But regardless, I am legally an adult and can marry another atheist sharing my beliefs.
Not only that, but I can do it within a day of meeting him if I wanted.
I could walk into a church and say "I BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOD IS A LIE!", blaspheme the name of the Lord and still get married.
And no one's fighting to take away my right to marry, as long as it's to a man.
Christianity does not have monopoly over marriage.
Well first of all, He did create all of those (greed, sin, mental illness, etc.) directly or indirectly.
Sin comes from Adam and Eve eating from the tree and being cast out of Eden?
But he put the tree there!!!
He who is all-knowing and all-powerful put a tree with two simple, stupid beings who don't know right or wrong and said "Oh, don't eat from that."
And not only that, he aslo put a talking serpent there who was much more clever than either of the beings who could easily convince them to eat from the tree because God made them stupid.
I'm saying that that was His bad...
And I'm assuming that you're saying that homosexuality is a sin, not implying that it is a disease.
Well by your own definition, sin causes us to feel disconnected from God?
But I know gay men who are very happy.
The only reason they would feel guilty for being gay is from being constantly told by Christianity that they should feel shame!
And if you were implying that homosexuality is a disease, I'll just say without getting angry: That's a pretty bold assertion. Proof?
And the morals of your country? You're American, yes?
Separation of Church and State.
I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread before. People came to America fleeing religious persecution.
It's unconstitutional to write laws forcing people to conform to a religion.
I'm thinking logically.
Logically, religion usually only makes sense to theists.
Again, I'm not saying that children should be forced to believe evolution, but Creationism has no part in public schools.
It's religion.
And again, I am not a Christian.
Saying that something's in the bible doesn't mean anything to me.
Your analogies don't accurately explain pushing Christianity on somebody.
Like from my perspective your cure analogy is like if I knew someone with cancer and so I tried to force them to put on my lucky hat.
I could be so very sure that it works.
And it might work.
But there's no logical evidence and to a person who doesn't think in terms of luck it's completely ridiculous.
And your sun example, God is not sitting in the sky for all to see, demanding that we worship Him.
All He did was leave us a very very very old book that has been translated, added to, and edited uncountless times with no objective proof of His will or even His existence.
If Christianity does turn out to have the answer, then it offers some amazing rewards to it's believers, and it makes sense for people to want to believe it, but it doesn't do anything to prove that it has the answer.
And saying if everyone met him, the world would be a better place.
Well that's a pretty big "if".
And if I could find out without a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, and all of His/Her/Its/Their qualities and what He/She/It/They wants from us, I would take that opportunity in a second.
I spent a huge chunk of my high school years trying to figure out just that.
But I have, through years of my own reasoning, decided that there is probably no god, certainly not a God who wants to be known and worshiped, and definitely absolutely, without, any doubt in my mind the God can not exist exactly as Christianity explains him.But I'm trying not to pick and choose. I think if you're going to believe the Bible, you have to believe in it all, even if certain things no longer apply because Jesus fulfilled the law. And I wouldn't say 'blindly'. I've come to a place where I've decided to believe the entire Bible, and follow whatever parts Jesus hasn't fulfilled. I'm not actually sure...remember, I don't usually post about homosexuality. The first thing I said was really my opinion, and while I'm sure there are other Christians who are really passionate about the subject and could give you most of the answers, I'm not one of them. I realize that, except there's certain churches who wouldn't let you get married there unless you were of their faith. Plus one way they're endorsing a sin, and the other way they're just letting a sinner get married, and most Christians still consider themselves to be sinners. So there's a difference. Nope, those came about in His abscene. And yeah, He put the Tree of Conscience there because there had to be a choice. Love requires that. And I think Satan slipped into the Garden in the form of a serpant and created all the strife. And I doubt they were that stupid. I think they were more naive then anything... And it cost Him His Son, so He paid a price for it too you know. Happy doesn't always mean being connected to God. God grants peace, love, joy, life, but at the same time, He never said we wouldn't suffer. He also grants eternal life, which to means all those thins without the pain and evil. To me, that'd be way more worth it then being with anyone on this earth. And I'm not implying that, but there is an argument fior that-if it's really in their genes, that's not the way nature meant them to be. Nature's all for procreation, so if you wanted to argue that being homosexual's bad and not the way nature meant them to be, you could. But the original laws were written according to the Ten Commandments, and they're the ones who originally outlawed homosexuality. They weren't for that much freedom. And Freedom of Speech was a term used to assure a Christian church they wouldn't have to conform to the governments church. It was originally used to protect religion from state, not the other way around. So basically all thiests are delusional because we're thinking spiritually? Either there is a supernatural side to the universe and we're smarter for recognizing that, or there isn't and we're all delusional/brainwashed. And if there isn't, life is pointless. And I still believe it does, or else neither should be taught. And it means everything to me and is really the only place I can come from. Well I guess that's really the thing. Unless you're willing to believe the accounts of people who have died and come back (and there's been books about it. There was one by a man who died and they brought him back, and he wrote a book about what he saw. Do you want the title?), or you have that revelation, you can't tell that the 'lucky hat' really is a panacea. In the supernatural, there's a war going on, and it's being fought for the sake of manking. And as for that book...the Jewish nation burned false copies of the Torah. It was kept sacred. There's books written about the Bible's accuracy. Would you like me to find a few titles for you? The Holy Spirit moves in people, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, much of the advice in the Bible is proven to be true today, certain strange facts like the Lord existing before time can be made to make sense when you see that time started with the Big Bang, people's lives are changed by it...you don't get so many believers without a religion having some truth, and before you even bring up other religions, I'm also gonna say that all religions have some truth. Christianity just has the whole truth. So it is, but it's also impossible on this plane of existance. For now it's a fantasy. Then challenge God: say if You're real, show me. He might not do it in a way you like, but if He's real, He should show you.
Because there are a few in the Old Testiment that I've seen Christians use when the book doesn't apply to Christians, like you said.
And then there are parts in the New Testiment which still has parts that most Christians still don't follow, like keeping women subservient to men and out of teaching in churches, in the same books as those quotes.
And if you don't know too much about homosexuality and just believe it's wrong because you are told that you should, then I urge you to reconsider or at least get educated and form your own view!
Whatever you choose to believe is fine as long as it applies only to you.
But same sex marriage greatly affects a huge portion of the country directly.
I'd think atheism is far worse.
Two men or women can be in a relationship and still be Christian.
By your definition, they sin. But by your definition again, everyone is a sinner.
Atheism is often in direct opposition to Christianity.
Outside of this guild and unless among close friends I prefer to keep my opinions to myself and never demean or talk down to anyone because of their religion.
But many other atheists that I know are not so concerned with being respectful to others and openly make fun of religion.
And many atheists, especially those of us who came from Christianity, resent Christianity.
And what's more, a gay couple can adopt. But there's no gay way to raise a kid. You can't teach a child to love one gender over the other. If you could, homosexuality would be a much smaller issue.
But I can make a baby. I can make as many as I want. And I can raise them all to be little atheists. And I can raise them to be pretentious and insulting towards theists.
I guess my point is, I don't understand why people are so opposed to same-sex marriage when there are comparitively way worse things threatening Christian marriage.
The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument is complete bull because America has completely destroyed that all on its own.
My theory is that it just has publicity.
Or maybe the topic of homosexuality just makes people uneasy and they're trying to rationalize it.
But it completely astounds me when in this day and age people are still so closed-minded about it.
But he did not give the beings he created the knowledge to know!
And love? He gave them a tree that would cause them and all of their children and their children's children endless suffering when eaten, and that's love?
But when they inevitably eat from the tree, he kicks them out forever and curses them and all of their children with said suffering forever?
And that's a popular theory, but God let him?
And if it was Satan who tricked them, then again, why was God not at all understanding to His creations who He allowed to be tricked?
Yes, they were naive. But so that they could not debate the reasoning for or againts not eating from the tree until after they ate from the tree.
I stand by my assertion that he could have avoided the entire thing. Numerous times.
He must have been powerful, He is God. And if He is God then He is all-knowing.
It's like that neat little Epicurus paradox:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then He is not omipotent.
Is He able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.
Is He neither willing nor able?
Then why call him a God?"
And again, the argument that being good will get you in to heaven is only worth anything if you're a Christian.
And even so, there are many Christians who do not believe that homosexuality is wrong.
So even for them, that logic doesn't stand up.
And anyone sharing your logic who is gay will undoubtedly abstain from finding his or her love with precicely that reasoning, whether or not same-sex marriage is legalized in their state, as sad as it may be.
And for people who don't follow Christianity, well do you think not letting them marry will stop them from having sex?
You're not saving or damning anyone either way. Keeping it banned only hurts people.
I can see how you could argue that.
I've actually seen that point argued on both sides and don't have much of an opinion of my own on it.
But I wouldn't go so far as to attatch the word "bad" or "disease" to it.
Well again, which quotes specifically are you talking about?
And for Separation of Church and State, it goes both ways. Keep religion and government separate.
Whether you like it or not, America is becoming more and more defined by it's amazing diversity.
And isn't freedom kind of important in America?
No matter who you wish to save, it's not right to force saving on anyone.
It's like, say separation of church and state did not exist.
And a Muslim man holds some kind of office in your state and makes a law, with the best of intentions, that women must dress in hijab and cover everything but their face and hands. Not to restrict your rights, but to bring you closer to God and protect you from men. You should be thanking him, right?
Well in your culture, that doesn't make sense. And it restricts your rights. If you believe that dressing modestly brings you closer to God, you'll make that decision on your own.
And that's just a minor inconvenience to you.
What if someone again comes to enough power to make laws and this person believes that Jesus was not the son of God and, what's more, believing so and worshiping Him as God is blasphemy.
So he makes it that worshiping Jesus is illegal. You should thank him, he kept you from angering God.
No, again, you should have that freedom to make that call on your own.
That's the beauty of separation of church and state.
It's pretty arrogant to not only assume that you know best and then force your beliefs on others because of that, no matter how sure you are that you're right.
No, Creationism and Evolution aren't equal.
One is a tested scientific theory.
One is a religious idea that requires blind faith.
It really doesn't matter that they oppose eachother.
The only thing that matters is that one is a science and widely accepted by the scientific community and should be taught in science class.
You wouldn't expect me to walk into a sunday school class waving The Origin of Species saying "Well, to be fair, if you're going to teach creationism, you have to teach the alternative," would you?
No, because evolution isn't a religious idea.
And again, separation of church and state.
Creationism is religion.
Even if it was science, it's religion.
And I can never believe blindly something that I could probably find the answer to with a little perserverence and science.
Isn't it just as possible that those people are hallucinating?
You're likely to hallucinate things that you know. For example, I doubt someone with absolutely no exposure to Christianity would "see" Saint Peter in a near death experience.
And I know there is a reason why people see a bright light when they're about to die... but I don't remember what it was so I won't make an a** out of myself by pretending that I do.
My point is, usually those answers can be found with a little bit of digging in psychology and the like.
And they're generally less comforting...
But much more fascinating.
And the bible has been translated and added to many times.
To believe it hasn't been changed at all is naive.
And it's full of contradictions, mostly with the stories but those don't interest me very much.
Actually though the one I was thinking about in the Muslim thread was the one that I've been using so much in this thread, Deuteronomy 13: 6-9, but I couldn't find it back then.
It's after the Ten Commandments.
And it's full of inconsistancies.
Like, for example, how in the bible YHWH would speek to the masses in a booming voice and perform great shows of power like giant floods.
But once these primative creations of His got advanced enough in science that they could record these great miracles, He just stopped?
Or on the flood, Noah building the Arc?
How is it possible to get all of the animals on earth?
And to fit all of them on an arc?
And take care of each and every one of them?
Again, no one should take the bible 100% literally...
I believe that parts of the bible are true.
You should be a good person.
You should help others.
You should not kill.
You should try to be Christ-like.
But I feel that people so often overlook those and fall into the dogma surrounding Christianity...
Haha, they are so unlike your Christ.
That's the understanding I always had of that specific Ghandi quote...
If you really want to know why I think Christianity had so many followers...
Well, I can't possibly tell you without offending you.
I did make that challenge though. Before I officially left my religion.
He did not accept.1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I'm also gonna refer to Genesis where Lot protected two guests of his house from being raped. This is also the book where the law against incest appears for the first time, which I would almost say implies a connection between incest being evil, and homosexuality being evil. They're bothe wrong, and at one time would've been unquestionably wrong. Is there gonna come a time when we say it's okay for brother's and sister's to marry? That's not the only reason I believe it's wrong. It's not that I'm completely uninformed, it's that I'm not passionate about the subject. It's one thing to point out how good my God is (that matters), it's another to go into a huge argument where I don't hold the popular opinion, over something that isn't even mentioned that much in the Bible. Well nothing can be done against athiesm, except prayer and witnessing. The only other options are brainwashing, or force, and I don't know any Christian who would support either method. I wouldn't. However, we have a law against a recognizable sin. The church is certainly going to fight to keep that law. And there is in a way: I wouldn't be surprised to find that some becaome gay to expiriment, and not because they really are. That bugs me, but truth be told, I'd be bugged to find anyone embrace a value for fun or entertainment, not just homosexuality. It just especially bugs me with homosexuality. What knowledge? He told them, don't eat from the Tree or you'll die. We don't even know if it went further then that. Maybe they didn't ask any questions. I guess there's no knowing until we can ask Him ourselves. Sin nature. All human beings do wrong. While they're babies though, they still know Him, and if they die, they go to be with Him. It's what I believe felt 'off' to me and my sins when we went to our mom and said something felt wrong. I still disagree. An innocent being can reason and think, and judge consequences. Oh, and did you notice Eve take the Lord's words and twist them a bit, by saying they couldn't even touch the fruit? I have my own theory about that. I think the reason the gift of choice was so great was that God gave us the ability to do things even He couldn't predict. One of the psalms says He placed man a little lower then Himself, and I think the gift of choice is part of that. I also found a good metaphor, which was basically compared God's Will to a sonnet's form. The sonnet has strict form, and if you don't keep to it, then it's not a sonnet, however within that form, you have complete freedom. I think it's like that with our lives. Plus if He destroys evil now, He's gotta destroy all men, even the Saved ones too, because of their sin nature. There will be a final battle, where the Saved shall go be with Him, and all that is evil shall be cast into the lake of fire. Only God the Father knows when that is though. Would you rather sex without marriage be banned? At the risk of sounding really horrible and a prude, I'd like that. I don't agree with it being everywhere, and with everyone my age doing it, and while I don't want it enforced with death, I do kinda wish it were against the law. I haven't, I just felt like pointing the argument out. That's not how it was used in the original letter. It's been about half a year since I looked up the subject, but I'll try and find a source if you want it. I like cultural diversity. That doesn't apply to homosexuals in my opinion. I also like diversity in thinking, but I still don't think it applies. Racial diversity is good too. I have no problems with anyone being the way they are because their born with, excepting that if it's a disease it should be healed, and if it's evil it did not come from them naturally and so should be stopped. We have freedom. I just finished a book about a princess in Saudi Arabia. They have no freedom whatsoever. I am so sickened by it I can't tell you. At the same time I'm not in favor of total freedom. That's anarchy. In freedom, as in most things, there needs to be a balence. And according to the Bible, you're either a slave to yourself (and Satan) or you're God's slave. Personally I choose God, because He'll take care of me, even when I fall down. I may come to hate myself, but He'll always love me. That could happen, but laws in this country have to go through a lengthy process (from what I can remember), and the law couldn't be enforced without a large enough Muslim population, nor would it be followed. i wouldn't wear a hijab even if someone beat me. And by the way, the Koran doesn't ever say the hijab necessary. The Bible outright states homosexuality is wrong. Actually, if they did that, I'd worship Him anyways and take any punishment that came my way. I feel disgusted, but glad that I could serve my Lord by being a martyr. And I heard a speaker say he wanted that to happen, because when that happened it'd mean people were taking us seriously. Actually if you read the works of Darwin and his followers you'll see a lot of 'I thinks' and 'perhapses', and Darwin said at the end of his life he was wrong. I think evolution takes more faith. It has not been tested and proven, that's why it's theory. And school is (supposed to be) based around learning and thinking. A good two-sided argument would encourage that. Chrurch, however, is based around getting closer to God and fellowshipping with other Christians. The Origin of the Species would not encourage that. So we should keep something out of schools that may be true and might help kids think because everyone's panicked about a phrase used in a letter 200 years ago? I think it's almost wimpy of our educational system , the way it avoids controversial subjects, like life and death and were people made or born. I doubt it, but I suppose if you're looking for any other explanation. Translated, yes. Added to, no. I think I've said before that any flawed copies of the Torah were burned. As for the Bible, I just got a book on the history of the church. I'm gonna take a look at that before I go into the Bible not being added to. When does He speak in a 'booming voice'? And big things still happen. Just because they have a scientific explantion doesn't mean they're against each other. If God wants to use science, He can. Plus miracles still happen. I brought up a few, but you said there was no proof they were from God. I think it could happen, and I'll look up the volume of the animals compared to the Ark at some point, and get back to you. I still don't see why not.^^ I think Gandhi meant a lot of Christians are hypocrites, and forget the Law of Agape. You can tell me. As long as you don't mean something in an insulting sort of way, I won't take offense, and I tend to forgive easily. He did, I bet, but He does things in His own time. Since you made the challenge the ball is in His court, and you're in far better hands then mine. ^_^
But Corinthians also condemns divorce.
Do you not agree that married people should have the option to get out of a bad or possible dangerous marriage?
There's also a bit of sexism in Corinthians and in the NT.
That idea that because Eve sinned, women are to be submissive and subservient to men.
And even if you believe that's true for yourself, it would be unthinkable to demand that be followed by law.
And Leviticus is not meant to be followed by Christians.
Leviticus also says that you should not eat pork or shellfish.
It also regulates slavery and sacrificing animals for offerings.
It has nothing to do with you...
A question on incest though- and this is a serious question that I honestly have wondered before- God only actively created Adam and Eve, right?
How did the world populate itself?
And repopulate itself after the flood?
And I admittedly know nothing about Romans.
Though since it is 4:00am here, I will move on for now and try to get back to it at another time.
And outside of the bible, do you have any reason why homosexuality is wrong?
Any one objective reason?
Or even skepticism on why God thinks it's wrong?
I mean, one of the things that bothers me about this kind of logic is that imagine someone decided that you couldn't get married.
Don't you think you at least deserve a "why not?"
Really, I don't mean to badger you.
I don't expect you to share my views on everything. In fact I hope that you don't. It would be very boring for me if everyone thought exactly like me.
But this is an issue that has a huge impact on people's lives.
And I understand that you probably didn't grow up with many gay relatives- at least not adults.
But I did. I've known people who couldn't wait for the country to wake up any longer.
I want to be tolerant of your opinions. If you were ever wondering what the values are that I chose to try to live by, tolerance is one of them.
But I wish I could communicate to you how poisonous this logic is to people's lives.
I know your heart's in the right place, and that you want to save people.
But you can't expect people to let you force your religious values on them.
And when people keep bans on gay marriages, not only are you making a huge life choice for them, but you're insulting them by implying that they can't make it themselves and that they are wrong for wanting to.
For the gay people in my life, it's part of who they are. It does not define them, but by saying that homosexuality is something to be ashamed of, it's like you're telling them that who they are is something to be ashamed of.
Instead of helping people, you're alienating them.
You say you would rebel against others forcing religious views on you that you don't agree with.
How can you expect people then to let you force religious views on them?
And the church has no right to fight to keep any law for religious reasons!
Again, religion should be kept out of government.
And many people experiment with their sexuality.
But that can't turn you gay.
One idea that easily disproves that is...
Would so many people turn gay by choice?
Or course, it's something to be proud of if that's who you are. You should always be proud of who you are.
But if you're gay, first of all, you can't have kids. At least not with your love.
You're not allowed to marry still in most of the country.
And you have people and media coming at you from all angles telling you that what you're doing- who you are- is evil and that you should be ashamed of it.
Not only that, but it's still dangerous to be gay in some parts of the country because people misunderstand it so much.
Why do you think so many kids, your age especially, hide their sexuality from their peers and parents?
Their peers might not understand and even be afraid and parents- in this day and age- still resent or kick their kids out of the house for being gay.
And many teens, brainwashed by Christianity are taught they should be ashamed by their thoughts.
They can't control it!
It's not just for fun.
Don't you think that if it was a choice, with all of the hate that homosexuality is met with, that people would decide that it's not worth it and just change back?
And he didn't really follow through with the death thing either.
That bothered me as a kid too...
I mean, they died eventually.
But instead of killing them on the spot, he made them suffer for eternity.
And I disagree on guilt. I think guilt and shame is man-made and that we're taught to feel guilt and shame.
Maybe Kohlberg's stages of moral development could explain why you felt how you did.
I really wouldn't know unless I knew the situation.
But I think, if He knew everything, then He would know what would inevitably happen.
If He is loving, He would not let them fall to evil by either removing the tree or the serpent.
If he is all-powerful, then He could do that easily.
And many people argue that He gave them free will and the ability to choose because He loved them, and that that is still true for Him allowing us to stray from Him today.
But then why is the punishment so harsh?
He has the intention of letting us stray, but then intends to damn us for doing so?
And you cannot ban sex.
You can stone unmarried people who you believe to have had sex to death.
But even if it was constitutional to ban sex and not a crazy violation of rights, it would be stupid and irresponsible to ban unmarried sex as it would be completely impossible to enforce it.
I mean, unless you intended to place chastity belts on everyone from birth and gave the key only to their spouse...
But by passing laws that you can not enforce, you spend a lot of money trying to enforce it and expose the impotence of the law.
It's like with prohibition.
Except you can find speakeasies and tangible evidence of violating prohibition.
But what takes only two people to do, relatively quickly and requiring almost no space or added equipment that they are not already equipped with by nature, well good luck.
But on a more serious note, you can't get people to stop having sex.
I do not know one gay person who has seen a protest against same-sex marriage and reconsidered sex because of it.
The only thing you do is alienate people and make them feel like second-class citizens in their own country.
And my point there is, you would not like it if someone forced their religious beliefs on you.
No matter how good their intentions are, no matter how much they're trying to save you, you would be hugely offended.
But that's exactly what you want to do to gay people.
Like with the hijab example. YHWH does not specifically forbid you to dress modestly.
In fact, He encourages it, doesn't He?
And the man only wants to bring you closer to His God, for your own good.
But it is not blasphemy to oblige him. You are not actively worshiping a different God.
And yet you're still incredibly opposed to it.
Well so how do you think you would feel if someone of a different religion said that who you are is not allowed in his religion, and that he's not allowing you to marry because it disgraces his meaning of marriage?
Pretty insulted, right?
It's not about strength in numbers or physical power to enforce a religious law.
That's what we're trying to protect against.
The Puritans left England to escape religious persecution.
And now we want to force religious persecution on others?
And you say you would gladly defy a law of another's religion being forced on you.
But then how can you expect people being told they can't marry because of something in the book of a religion that may not even apply to them to silently agree that it's for their own good?
It's unbelievably arrogant to presume that you're right and force religion on people for their own good because of it.
No matter which religion is doing the forcing and who are the one's being forced.
That's why separation of church and state is so important to people like me who are in the religious minority.
And I believe that if it is not in the Koran, then it is at least agreed in all followings of Islam that it is encouraged that a woman cover all of herself except her face and hands.
And the bible encourages women to dress modestly too, it is just ignored or people substitute in their own definition of modesty.
And if the thing about slavery is true, I believe I would rather follow myself.
Since I stopped trying to follow God, I've been much happier.
And if that means that I'm unintentionally Satan's slave, well he's certainly been a kinder master.
If he is evil then at least he is honest about it. And he does not restrict my ability to think for my own. Nor would he ever reject me.
He does not demand that I worship him.
I would never purposely worship Satan. If I believed in Satan, then I would have to believe in God, Heaven, and Hell.
And it would be stupid to believe in all of them and still defy God.
But from an atheist point of view, Satan is a much less cruel master.
And I certainly believe that it takes more faith to believe that God created man from dust then woman from his rib, put them in a garden with a talking snake who tricked them into eating from a tree which gave them knowledge and God was pissed so he kicked them out of the garden causing almost all of our major problems today than something that is not completely solid but still has tangible proof.
From a non-Christian (or I guess non-Abrahamic) point of view, the story of creation is ridiculous. It completely defies what we know about biology and people in so many ways and relies completely on faith in the bible.
Science class is about science. Creationism is not science. It's only in opposition to science.
I agree that our education system is way out-dated and pretty awful, but forcing Creationism would only set us back almost a century.
I think some controversial subjects should not be taught in school, as the student ultimately should decide that for himself, but yes, I think that teachers should be allowed to talk about them.
For example, last year's elections, seeing my teachers show up to class with "I VOTED" stickers but not able to talk about the election.
Really funny. Completely moronic.
Perhaps He did not speak to them in a booming voice, but He supposedly spoke to people.
You might argue that He still does, but in the claims I've seen of people saying they spoke with God, it almost always seems like either exploitation of believers or wishful thinking.
The same with miracles.
What happened to the grand shows of power like in the bible?
People use the term "miracle" too loosely.
I haven't heard of anyone turning into salt recently...
It can usually be attributed to the little tricks we play on ourselves.
Again, I love learning about psychology and human nature.
And the answers I get from that and studying people on my own are infinitely more interesting, less comforting, granted, but more interesting than any answers given to me by the bible.
And alright then, I will.
But it's pretty long and it's almost 5:00 here now.
I have a busy week coming up...
But if I find myself surfing Gaia, looking for something to do, I will post exactly why I think Christianity has such a large following.
Hehe, and if He knows me as well as my old religion claims that He does, He knows that I'm drifting further from Him each day.
If He communicates to me that He wants my soul, I will gladly give it.
But I am sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God as the bible describes him does not exist.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:06 am
Oh no!
Semiremis, run!
You're trapped between two walls of text! D:
Haha, I should probably get some sleep... XD
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:01 pm
Semiremis What does Jesus tell us about homosexuality EternallyBlue? I don't believe He brings it up. I do think that by what He said during the stoning of the woman applies, and basically gets rid of all the violent punishments, but nothing He says or does indicates God's Will has change on the matter. And rofl brainn. Sorry to trap you Semi! rofl
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:05 pm
Small Note: 1 Cor 6:9 along with Leviticus condemns male prostitution and sex not homosexuality, as in the sexuality.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:09 pm
Semiremis xLady Tsukiyox If a Muslim were to make a law saying that all women were to wear a hijab I wouldn't have a problem with it. I mean as a woman of Russian descent, many Russian women young and old wear a head covering, it's meant for modesty but it also keeps your ears from getting cold. And if you're in the desert it keeps scorpions from attacking you. So really the hijab has many purposes and can be beneficial to different parts of the country that has harsh summers and very harsh winters. Not only that but hijabs are very pretty. :3 Also, somewhere in the Bible it says that women have to wear headcoverings as a part of repenting for Eve's sin or something. And there are Israeli women, who do wear hijabs. It's not just a Muslim thing but it's a cultural thing. If a Christian were to make a similar saying that all women had to wear them would you feel the same way? I'm a Christian. I still wouldn't care. I mean seriously, it's within my mixed up culture. Besides my ears get freaking cold when the wind blows. Wearing a headscarf wouldn't hurt. Hell if someone was Japanese forced women to wear kimonos I would wear one, or someone Chinese forced women to wear a Qi Pao, I'd wear it, or Gothic Lolita, or a Sari, etc. I'd wear it. I love global fashions verses our own. Our fashions are tasteless. =.= Hell I'd even wear a corset. razz
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:33 pm
brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup xxEternallyBluexx brainnsoup Well either way, you're picking and choosing which parts you would like to follow, or someone you're very influenced by is.
But it's impossible to follow everything in the bible literally, and no one can ever claim that they do.
Like that part in Deuteronomy, say what you will about it, but it's still there. In the bible. Just because something's in the bible doesn't mean you should blindly follow it, even in Christianity.
And if homosexuality is not important, then why do people sharing your views go to such lengths to make sure that people are denied rights?
Do you even have a reason other than "it's in the bible" for why it's wrong?
Any solid, objective reasoning at all?
And if not, wrap your mind around this:
I am an atheist. By Christianity's definition I commit many sins daily which I feel no remourse over because they are not bad to me.
But regardless, I am legally an adult and can marry another atheist sharing my beliefs.
Not only that, but I can do it within a day of meeting him if I wanted.
I could walk into a church and say "I BELIEVE THAT YOUR GOD IS A LIE!", blaspheme the name of the Lord and still get married.
And no one's fighting to take away my right to marry, as long as it's to a man.
Christianity does not have monopoly over marriage.
Well first of all, He did create all of those (greed, sin, mental illness, etc.) directly or indirectly.
Sin comes from Adam and Eve eating from the tree and being cast out of Eden?
But he put the tree there!!!
He who is all-knowing and all-powerful put a tree with two simple, stupid beings who don't know right or wrong and said "Oh, don't eat from that."
And not only that, he aslo put a talking serpent there who was much more clever than either of the beings who could easily convince them to eat from the tree because God made them stupid.
I'm saying that that was His bad...
And I'm assuming that you're saying that homosexuality is a sin, not implying that it is a disease.
Well by your own definition, sin causes us to feel disconnected from God?
But I know gay men who are very happy.
The only reason they would feel guilty for being gay is from being constantly told by Christianity that they should feel shame!
And if you were implying that homosexuality is a disease, I'll just say without getting angry: That's a pretty bold assertion. Proof?
And the morals of your country? You're American, yes?
Separation of Church and State.
I'm sure it's been mentioned in this thread before. People came to America fleeing religious persecution.
It's unconstitutional to write laws forcing people to conform to a religion.
I'm thinking logically.
Logically, religion usually only makes sense to theists.
Again, I'm not saying that children should be forced to believe evolution, but Creationism has no part in public schools.
It's religion.
And again, I am not a Christian.
Saying that something's in the bible doesn't mean anything to me.
Your analogies don't accurately explain pushing Christianity on somebody.
Like from my perspective your cure analogy is like if I knew someone with cancer and so I tried to force them to put on my lucky hat.
I could be so very sure that it works.
And it might work.
But there's no logical evidence and to a person who doesn't think in terms of luck it's completely ridiculous.
And your sun example, God is not sitting in the sky for all to see, demanding that we worship Him.
All He did was leave us a very very very old book that has been translated, added to, and edited uncountless times with no objective proof of His will or even His existence.
If Christianity does turn out to have the answer, then it offers some amazing rewards to it's believers, and it makes sense for people to want to believe it, but it doesn't do anything to prove that it has the answer.
And saying if everyone met him, the world would be a better place.
Well that's a pretty big "if".
And if I could find out without a shadow of a doubt that there was a God, and all of His/Her/Its/Their qualities and what He/She/It/They wants from us, I would take that opportunity in a second.
I spent a huge chunk of my high school years trying to figure out just that.
But I have, through years of my own reasoning, decided that there is probably no god, certainly not a God who wants to be known and worshiped, and definitely absolutely, without, any doubt in my mind the God can not exist exactly as Christianity explains him. But I'm trying not to pick and choose. I think if you're going to believe the Bible, you have to believe in it all, even if certain things no longer apply because Jesus fulfilled the law. And I wouldn't say 'blindly'. I've come to a place where I've decided to believe the entire Bible, and follow whatever parts Jesus hasn't fulfilled. I'm not actually sure...remember, I don't usually post about homosexuality. The first thing I said was really my opinion, and while I'm sure there are other Christians who are really passionate about the subject and could give you most of the answers, I'm not one of them. I realize that, except there's certain churches who wouldn't let you get married there unless you were of their faith. Plus one way they're endorsing a sin, and the other way they're just letting a sinner get married, and most Christians still consider themselves to be sinners. So there's a difference. Nope, those came about in His abscene. And yeah, He put the Tree of Conscience there because there had to be a choice. Love requires that. And I think Satan slipped into the Garden in the form of a serpant and created all the strife. And I doubt they were that stupid. I think they were more naive then anything... And it cost Him His Son, so He paid a price for it too you know. Happy doesn't always mean being connected to God. God grants peace, love, joy, life, but at the same time, He never said we wouldn't suffer. He also grants eternal life, which to means all those thins without the pain and evil. To me, that'd be way more worth it then being with anyone on this earth. And I'm not implying that, but there is an argument fior that-if it's really in their genes, that's not the way nature meant them to be. Nature's all for procreation, so if you wanted to argue that being homosexual's bad and not the way nature meant them to be, you could. But the original laws were written according to the Ten Commandments, and they're the ones who originally outlawed homosexuality. They weren't for that much freedom. And Freedom of Speech was a term used to assure a Christian church they wouldn't have to conform to the governments church. It was originally used to protect religion from state, not the other way around. So basically all thiests are delusional because we're thinking spiritually? Either there is a supernatural side to the universe and we're smarter for recognizing that, or there isn't and we're all delusional/brainwashed. And if there isn't, life is pointless. And I still believe it does, or else neither should be taught. And it means everything to me and is really the only place I can come from. Well I guess that's really the thing. Unless you're willing to believe the accounts of people who have died and come back (and there's been books about it. There was one by a man who died and they brought him back, and he wrote a book about what he saw. Do you want the title?), or you have that revelation, you can't tell that the 'lucky hat' really is a panacea. In the supernatural, there's a war going on, and it's being fought for the sake of manking. And as for that book...the Jewish nation burned false copies of the Torah. It was kept sacred. There's books written about the Bible's accuracy. Would you like me to find a few titles for you? The Holy Spirit moves in people, the Bible doesn't contradict itself, much of the advice in the Bible is proven to be true today, certain strange facts like the Lord existing before time can be made to make sense when you see that time started with the Big Bang, people's lives are changed by it...you don't get so many believers without a religion having some truth, and before you even bring up other religions, I'm also gonna say that all religions have some truth. Christianity just has the whole truth. So it is, but it's also impossible on this plane of existance. For now it's a fantasy. Then challenge God: say if You're real, show me. He might not do it in a way you like, but if He's real, He should show you.
Because there are a few in the Old Testiment that I've seen Christians use when the book doesn't apply to Christians, like you said.
And then there are parts in the New Testiment which still has parts that most Christians still don't follow, like keeping women subservient to men and out of teaching in churches, in the same books as those quotes.
And if you don't know too much about homosexuality and just believe it's wrong because you are told that you should, then I urge you to reconsider or at least get educated and form your own view!
Whatever you choose to believe is fine as long as it applies only to you.
But same sex marriage greatly affects a huge portion of the country directly.
I'd think atheism is far worse.
Two men or women can be in a relationship and still be Christian.
By your definition, they sin. But by your definition again, everyone is a sinner.
Atheism is often in direct opposition to Christianity.
Outside of this guild and unless among close friends I prefer to keep my opinions to myself and never demean or talk down to anyone because of their religion.
But many other atheists that I know are not so concerned with being respectful to others and openly make fun of religion.
And many atheists, especially those of us who came from Christianity, resent Christianity.
And what's more, a gay couple can adopt. But there's no gay way to raise a kid. You can't teach a child to love one gender over the other. If you could, homosexuality would be a much smaller issue.
But I can make a baby. I can make as many as I want. And I can raise them all to be little atheists. And I can raise them to be pretentious and insulting towards theists.
I guess my point is, I don't understand why people are so opposed to same-sex marriage when there are comparitively way worse things threatening Christian marriage.
The whole "sanctity of marriage" argument is complete bull because America has completely destroyed that all on its own.
My theory is that it just has publicity.
Or maybe the topic of homosexuality just makes people uneasy and they're trying to rationalize it.
But it completely astounds me when in this day and age people are still so closed-minded about it.
But he did not give the beings he created the knowledge to know!
And love? He gave them a tree that would cause them and all of their children and their children's children endless suffering when eaten, and that's love?
But when they inevitably eat from the tree, he kicks them out forever and curses them and all of their children with said suffering forever?
And that's a popular theory, but God let him?
And if it was Satan who tricked them, then again, why was God not at all understanding to His creations who He allowed to be tricked?
Yes, they were naive. But so that they could not debate the reasoning for or againts not eating from the tree until after they ate from the tree.
I stand by my assertion that he could have avoided the entire thing. Numerous times.
He must have been powerful, He is God. And if He is God then He is all-knowing.
It's like that neat little Epicurus paradox:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then He is not omipotent.
Is He able, but not willing?
Then He is malevolent.
Is He neither willing nor able?
Then why call him a God?"
And again, the argument that being good will get you in to heaven is only worth anything if you're a Christian.
And even so, there are many Christians who do not believe that homosexuality is wrong.
So even for them, that logic doesn't stand up.
And anyone sharing your logic who is gay will undoubtedly abstain from finding his or her love with precicely that reasoning, whether or not same-sex marriage is legalized in their state, as sad as it may be.
And for people who don't follow Christianity, well do you think not letting them marry will stop them from having sex?
You're not saving or damning anyone either way. Keeping it banned only hurts people.
I can see how you could argue that.
I've actually seen that point argued on both sides and don't have much of an opinion of my own on it.
But I wouldn't go so far as to attatch the word "bad" or "disease" to it.
Well again, which quotes specifically are you talking about?
And for Separation of Church and State, it goes both ways. Keep religion and government separate.
Whether you like it or not, America is becoming more and more defined by it's amazing diversity.
And isn't freedom kind of important in America?
No matter who you wish to save, it's not right to force saving on anyone.
It's like, say separation of church and state did not exist.
And a Muslim man holds some kind of office in your state and makes a law, with the best of intentions, that women must dress in hijab and cover everything but their face and hands. Not to restrict your rights, but to bring you closer to God and protect you from men. You should be thanking him, right?
Well in your culture, that doesn't make sense. And it restricts your rights. If you believe that dressing modestly brings you closer to God, you'll make that decision on your own.
And that's just a minor inconvenience to you.
What if someone again comes to enough power to make laws and this person believes that Jesus was not the son of God and, what's more, believing so and worshiping Him as God is blasphemy.
So he makes it that worshiping Jesus is illegal. You should thank him, he kept you from angering God.
No, again, you should have that freedom to make that call on your own.
That's the beauty of separation of church and state.
It's pretty arrogant to not only assume that you know best and then force your beliefs on others because of that, no matter how sure you are that you're right.
No, Creationism and Evolution aren't equal.
One is a tested scientific theory.
One is a religious idea that requires blind faith.
It really doesn't matter that they oppose eachother.
The only thing that matters is that one is a science and widely accepted by the scientific community and should be taught in science class.
You wouldn't expect me to walk into a sunday school class waving The Origin of Species saying "Well, to be fair, if you're going to teach creationism, you have to teach the alternative," would you?
No, because evolution isn't a religious idea.
And again, separation of church and state.
Creationism is religion.
Even if it was science, it's religion.
And I can never believe blindly something that I could probably find the answer to with a little perserverence and science.
Isn't it just as possible that those people are hallucinating?
You're likely to hallucinate things that you know. For example, I doubt someone with absolutely no exposure to Christianity would "see" Saint Peter in a near death experience.
And I know there is a reason why people see a bright light when they're about to die... but I don't remember what it was so I won't make an a** out of myself by pretending that I do.
My point is, usually those answers can be found with a little bit of digging in psychology and the like.
And they're generally less comforting...
But much more fascinating.
And the bible has been translated and added to many times.
To believe it hasn't been changed at all is naive.
And it's full of contradictions, mostly with the stories but those don't interest me very much.
Actually though the one I was thinking about in the Muslim thread was the one that I've been using so much in this thread, Deuteronomy 13: 6-9, but I couldn't find it back then.
It's after the Ten Commandments.
And it's full of inconsistancies.
Like, for example, how in the bible YHWH would speek to the masses in a booming voice and perform great shows of power like giant floods.
But once these primative creations of His got advanced enough in science that they could record these great miracles, He just stopped?
Or on the flood, Noah building the Arc?
How is it possible to get all of the animals on earth?
And to fit all of them on an arc?
And take care of each and every one of them?
Again, no one should take the bible 100% literally...
I believe that parts of the bible are true.
You should be a good person.
You should help others.
You should not kill.
You should try to be Christ-like.
But I feel that people so often overlook those and fall into the dogma surrounding Christianity...
Haha, they are so unlike your Christ.
That's the understanding I always had of that specific Ghandi quote...
If you really want to know why I think Christianity had so many followers...
Well, I can't possibly tell you without offending you.
I did make that challenge though. Before I officially left my religion.
He did not accept.1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." Romans 1:26-27 - "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." I'm also gonna refer to Genesis where Lot protected two guests of his house from being raped. This is also the book where the law against incest appears for the first time, which I would almost say implies a connection between incest being evil, and homosexuality being evil. They're bothe wrong, and at one time would've been unquestionably wrong. Is there gonna come a time when we say it's okay for brother's and sister's to marry? That's not the only reason I believe it's wrong. It's not that I'm completely uninformed, it's that I'm not passionate about the subject. It's one thing to point out how good my God is (that matters), it's another to go into a huge argument where I don't hold the popular opinion, over something that isn't even mentioned that much in the Bible. Well nothing can be done against athiesm, except prayer and witnessing. The only other options are brainwashing, or force, and I don't know any Christian who would support either method. I wouldn't. However, we have a law against a recognizable sin. The church is certainly going to fight to keep that law. And there is in a way: I wouldn't be surprised to find that some becaome gay to expiriment, and not because they really are. That bugs me, but truth be told, I'd be bugged to find anyone embrace a value for fun or entertainment, not just homosexuality. It just especially bugs me with homosexuality. What knowledge? He told them, don't eat from the Tree or you'll die. We don't even know if it went further then that. Maybe they didn't ask any questions. I guess there's no knowing until we can ask Him ourselves. Sin nature. All human beings do wrong. While they're babies though, they still know Him, and if they die, they go to be with Him. It's what I believe felt 'off' to me and my sins when we went to our mom and said something felt wrong. I still disagree. An innocent being can reason and think, and judge consequences. Oh, and did you notice Eve take the Lord's words and twist them a bit, by saying they couldn't even touch the fruit? I have my own theory about that. I think the reason the gift of choice was so great was that God gave us the ability to do things even He couldn't predict. One of the psalms says He placed man a little lower then Himself, and I think the gift of choice is part of that. I also found a good metaphor, which was basically compared God's Will to a sonnet's form. The sonnet has strict form, and if you don't keep to it, then it's not a sonnet, however within that form, you have complete freedom. I think it's like that with our lives. Plus if He destroys evil now, He's gotta destroy all men, even the Saved ones too, because of their sin nature. There will be a final battle, where the Saved shall go be with Him, and all that is evil shall be cast into the lake of fire. Only God the Father knows when that is though. Would you rather sex without marriage be banned? At the risk of sounding really horrible and a prude, I'd like that. I don't agree with it being everywhere, and with everyone my age doing it, and while I don't want it enforced with death, I do kinda wish it were against the law. I haven't, I just felt like pointing the argument out. That's not how it was used in the original letter. It's been about half a year since I looked up the subject, but I'll try and find a source if you want it. I like cultural diversity. That doesn't apply to homosexuals in my opinion. I also like diversity in thinking, but I still don't think it applies. Racial diversity is good too. I have no problems with anyone being the way they are because their born with, excepting that if it's a disease it should be healed, and if it's evil it did not come from them naturally and so should be stopped. We have freedom. I just finished a book about a princess in Saudi Arabia. They have no freedom whatsoever. I am so sickened by it I can't tell you. At the same time I'm not in favor of total freedom. That's anarchy. In freedom, as in most things, there needs to be a balence. And according to the Bible, you're either a slave to yourself (and Satan) or you're God's slave. Personally I choose God, because He'll take care of me, even when I fall down. I may come to hate myself, but He'll always love me. That could happen, but laws in this country have to go through a lengthy process (from what I can remember), and the law couldn't be enforced without a large enough Muslim population, nor would it be followed. i wouldn't wear a hijab even if someone beat me. And by the way, the Koran doesn't ever say the hijab necessary. The Bible outright states homosexuality is wrong. Actually, if they did that, I'd worship Him anyways and take any punishment that came my way. I feel disgusted, but glad that I could serve my Lord by being a martyr. And I heard a speaker say he wanted that to happen, because when that happened it'd mean people were taking us seriously. Actually if you read the works of Darwin and his followers you'll see a lot of 'I thinks' and 'perhapses', and Darwin said at the end of his life he was wrong. I think evolution takes more faith. It has not been tested and proven, that's why it's theory. And school is (supposed to be) based around learning and thinking. A good two-sided argument would encourage that. Chrurch, however, is based around getting closer to God and fellowshipping with other Christians. The Origin of the Species would not encourage that. So we should keep something out of schools that may be true and might help kids think because everyone's panicked about a phrase used in a letter 200 years ago? I think it's almost wimpy of our educational system , the way it avoids controversial subjects, like life and death and were people made or born. I doubt it, but I suppose if you're looking for any other explanation. Translated, yes. Added to, no. I think I've said before that any flawed copies of the Torah were burned. As for the Bible, I just got a book on the history of the church. I'm gonna take a look at that before I go into the Bible not being added to. When does He speak in a 'booming voice'? And big things still happen. Just because they have a scientific explantion doesn't mean they're against each other. If God wants to use science, He can. Plus miracles still happen. I brought up a few, but you said there was no proof they were from God. I think it could happen, and I'll look up the volume of the animals compared to the Ark at some point, and get back to you. I still don't see why not.^^ I think Gandhi meant a lot of Christians are hypocrites, and forget the Law of Agape. You can tell me. As long as you don't mean something in an insulting sort of way, I won't take offense, and I tend to forgive easily. He did, I bet, but He does things in His own time. Since you made the challenge the ball is in His court, and you're in far better hands then mine. ^_^
But Corinthians also condemns divorce.
Do you not agree that married people should have the option to get out of a bad or possible dangerous marriage?
There's also a bit of sexism in Corinthians and in the NT.
That idea that because Eve sinned, women are to be submissive and subservient to men.
And even if you believe that's true for yourself, it would be unthinkable to demand that be followed by law.
And Leviticus is not meant to be followed by Christians.
Leviticus also says that you should not eat pork or shellfish.
It also regulates slavery and sacrificing animals for offerings.
It has nothing to do with you...
A question on incest though- and this is a serious question that I honestly have wondered before- God only actively created Adam and Eve, right?
How did the world populate itself?
And repopulate itself after the flood?
And I admittedly know nothing about Romans.
Though since it is 4:00am here, I will move on for now and try to get back to it at another time.
And outside of the bible, do you have any reason why homosexuality is wrong?
Any one objective reason?
Or even skepticism on why God thinks it's wrong?
I mean, one of the things that bothers me about this kind of logic is that imagine someone decided that you couldn't get married.
Don't you think you at least deserve a "why not?"
Really, I don't mean to badger you.
I don't expect you to share my views on everything. In fact I hope that you don't. It would be very boring for me if everyone thought exactly like me.
But this is an issue that has a huge impact on people's lives.
And I understand that you probably didn't grow up with many gay relatives- at least not adults.
But I did. I've known people who couldn't wait for the country to wake up any longer.
I want to be tolerant of your opinions. If you were ever wondering what the values are that I chose to try to live by, tolerance is one of them.
But I wish I could communicate to you how poisonous this logic is to people's lives.
I know your heart's in the right place, and that you want to save people.
But you can't expect people to let you force your religious values on them.
And when people keep bans on gay marriages, not only are you making a huge life choice for them, but you're insulting them by implying that they can't make it themselves and that they are wrong for wanting to.
For the gay people in my life, it's part of who they are. It does not define them, but by saying that homosexuality is something to be ashamed of, it's like you're telling them that who they are is something to be ashamed of.
Instead of helping people, you're alienating them.
You say you would rebel against others forcing religious views on you that you don't agree with.
How can you expect people then to let you force religious views on them?
And the church has no right to fight to keep any law for religious reasons!
Again, religion should be kept out of government.
And many people experiment with their sexuality.
But that can't turn you gay.
One idea that easily disproves that is...
Would so many people turn gay by choice?
Or course, it's something to be proud of if that's who you are. You should always be proud of who you are.
But if you're gay, first of all, you can't have kids. At least not with your love.
You're not allowed to marry still in most of the country.
And you have people and media coming at you from all angles telling you that what you're doing- who you are- is evil and that you should be ashamed of it.
Not only that, but it's still dangerous to be gay in some parts of the country because people misunderstand it so much.
Why do you think so many kids, your age especially, hide their sexuality from their peers and parents?
Their peers might not understand and even be afraid and parents- in this day and age- still resent or kick their kids out of the house for being gay.
And many teens, brainwashed by Christianity are taught they should be ashamed by their thoughts.
They can't control it!
It's not just for fun.
Don't you think that if it was a choice, with all of the hate that homosexuality is met with, that people would decide that it's not worth it and just change back?
And he didn't really follow through with the death thing either.
That bothered me as a kid too...
I mean, they died eventually.
But instead of killing them on the spot, he made them suffer for eternity.
And I disagree on guilt. I think guilt and shame is man-made and that we're taught to feel guilt and shame.
Maybe Kohlberg's stages of moral development could explain why you felt how you did.
I really wouldn't know unless I knew the situation.
But I think, if He knew everything, then He would know what would inevitably happen.
If He is loving, He would not let them fall to evil by either removing the tree or the serpent.
If he is all-powerful, then He could do that easily.
And many people argue that He gave them free will and the ability to choose because He loved them, and that that is still true for Him allowing us to stray from Him today.
But then why is the punishment so harsh?
He has the intention of letting us stray, but then intends to damn us for doing so?
And you cannot ban sex.
You can stone unmarried people who you believe to have had sex to death.
But even if it was constitutional to ban sex and not a crazy violation of rights, it would be stupid and irresponsible to ban unmarried sex as it would be completely impossible to enforce it.
I mean, unless you intended to place chastity belts on everyone from birth and gave the key only to their spouse...
But by passing laws that you can not enforce, you spend a lot of money trying to enforce it and expose the impotence of the law.
It's like with prohibition.
Except you can find speakeasies and tangible evidence of violating prohibition.
But what takes only two people to do, relatively quickly and requiring almost no space or added equipment that they are not already equipped with by nature, well good luck.
But on a more serious note, you can't get people to stop having sex.
I do not know one gay person who has seen a protest against same-sex marriage and reconsidered sex because of it.
The only thing you do is alienate people and make them feel like second-class citizens in their own country.
And my point there is, you would not like it if someone forced their religious beliefs on you.
No matter how good their intentions are, no matter how much they're trying to save you, you would be hugely offended.
But that's exactly what you want to do to gay people.
Like with the hijab example. YHWH does not specifically forbid you to dress modestly.
In fact, He encourages it, doesn't He?
And the man only wants to bring you closer to His God, for your own good.
But it is not blasphemy to oblige him. You are not actively worshiping a different God.
And yet you're still incredibly opposed to it.
Well so how do you think you would feel if someone of a different religion said that who you are is not allowed in his religion, and that he's not allowing you to marry because it disgraces his meaning of marriage?
Pretty insulted, right?
It's not about strength in numbers or physical power to enforce a religious law.
That's what we're trying to protect against.
The Puritans left England to escape religious persecution.
And now we want to force religious persecution on others?
And you say you would gladly defy a law of another's religion being forced on you.
But then how can you expect people being told they can't marry because of something in the book of a religion that may not even apply to them to silently agree that it's for their own good?
It's unbelievably arrogant to presume that you're right and force religion on people for their own good because of it.
No matter which religion is doing the forcing and who are the one's being forced.
That's why separation of church and state is so important to people like me who are in the religious minority.
And I believe that if it is not in the Koran, then it is at least agreed in all followings of Islam that it is encouraged that a woman cover all of herself except her face and hands.
And the bible encourages women to dress modestly too, it is just ignored or people substitute in their own definition of modesty.
And if the thing about slavery is true, I believe I would rather follow myself.
Since I stopped trying to follow God, I've been much happier.
And if that means that I'm unintentionally Satan's slave, well he's certainly been a kinder master.
If he is evil then at least he is honest about it. And he does not restrict my ability to think for my own. Nor would he ever reject me.
He does not demand that I worship him.
I would never purposely worship Satan. If I believed in Satan, then I would have to believe in God, Heaven, and Hell.
And it would be stupid to believe in all of them and still defy God.
But from an atheist point of view, Satan is a much less cruel master.
And I certainly believe that it takes more faith to believe that God created man from dust then woman from his rib, put them in a garden with a talking snake who tricked them into eating from a tree which gave them knowledge and God was pissed so he kicked them out of the garden causing almost all of our major problems today than something that is not completely solid but still has tangible proof.
From a non-Christian (or I guess non-Abrahamic) point of view, the story of creation is ridiculous. It completely defies what we know about biology and people in so many ways and relies completely on faith in the bible.
Science class is about science. Creationism is not science. It's only in opposition to science.
I agree that our education system is way out-dated and pretty awful, but forcing Creationism would only set us back almost a century.
I think some controversial subjects should not be taught in school, as the student ultimately should decide that for himself, but yes, I think that teachers should be allowed to talk about them.
For example, last year's elections, seeing my teachers show up to class with "I VOTED" stickers but not able to talk about the election.
Really funny. Completely moronic.
Perhaps He did not speak to them in a booming voice, but He supposedly spoke to people.
You might argue that He still does, but in the claims I've seen of people saying they spoke with God, it almost always seems like either exploitation of believers or wishful thinking.
The same with miracles.
What happened to the grand shows of power like in the bible?
People use the term "miracle" too loosely.
I haven't heard of anyone turning into salt recently...
It can usually be attributed to the little tricks we play on ourselves.
Again, I love learning about psychology and human nature.
And the answers I get from that and studying people on my own are infinitely more interesting, less comforting, granted, but more interesting than any answers given to me by the bible.
And alright then, I will.
But it's pretty long and it's almost 5:00 here now.
I have a busy week coming up...
But if I find myself surfing Gaia, looking for something to do, I will post exactly why I think Christianity has such a large following.
Hehe, and if He knows me as well as my old religion claims that He does, He knows that I'm drifting further from Him each day.
If He communicates to me that He wants my soul, I will gladly give it.
But I am sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God as the bible describes him does not exist.There's another verse (I can't remember what book) that says if one spouse has commited adultery, then the other has the right to divorce them. That verse about divorce actually applied in my mom's life. She stayed married to my dad to the point it was killing her, but even after seeing that, I'd do the same. If you ever get the chance, read Captivating. It's a great book about the role of a woman. And while I don't believe should be sub-human or anything, I do think to a poitn, she should give in to her husband. Definetly not all the time, but when it's something that could tear a marriage apart. That was to protect the Jews from certain bacteria that could've killed them, and Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice, which is why those sacrifices are no longer necessary. Through brothers and sisters copulating. It became wrong for humanity when DNA denegerated to the point it would cause mental illness and genetic disease. And Noah's sons had their wives. Besides, that was way before the law against incest. I don't really have a good reason on incest being wrong either, except the kids would have really bad genetic disorders. Neither do I know why lyings wrong when it'll save you a bad situation, or murder. My conscience tells me it's wrong though, and the Bible does too. If I don't stick to my morals on this, how can I trust it on any evil? I don't know anyone who's homosexual (at least to my knowledge). I didn't even know the word until middle school. Maybe if I met someone who is, I'd understand, but even then I'd want to stick by my values, which is not to support any form of sin. I really get it, which is why I don't usually push the subject, but I really can't support it in good conscience. Because religion is the driving force behind my life. I couldn't do anything but rebel, because that's how much it means to me. It's going to, regardless. And it'll probrably fail. I think we're coming to an age when they would. Except for the church crowd, a lot of people are accepting of it. And I don't think you should always be proud of who you are. I'm not sure how to say this, but that's not an idea the church supports. If you're proud of yourself, you're giving yourself credit for things that God should be given credit for. That's the way it works in the church. And the media actually tends to either accept homosexuality, or make fun of it, but it's NOT labeling it evil. Oh, I hate that. Discouraging sin is one thing, but I hate for people to die or get hurt for being homosexuality. I'd rather get them help. Not really, especially with how the attitude's towards it is changing. He didn't say they'd die right after they ate the fruit, thought to my mind they died three deaths: physically eventually, spiritually immediately, and every day by going to sleep. They still can't find a great reason for sleep, but I think it started after the Garden as part of the punishment. And maybe what happens to the Jews happens to them... What happened was one day I felt really bad, almost sick for some reason, and I never stopped feeling that way. My mom says my sibs felt the same way. I think it was the first time I felt guilty and the distancing of the Lord, partly because there have been times when I've been close to Him, and whatever it is will almost be gone. Things will just feel...like they're supposed to. It's a big reason why I believe. That's not the way love works, and Satan probrably snuck in. If he was God's second-in-command, then he'd be a formidable opponent, and would probrably be able to manage something like that. He doesn't damn us, our actions do. If you choose not to be with Him, He's got no choice but to let you go your own way, and that's like asking to live on a planet without the sun because the sun bugs you. I realize that. That's why I'm not advocating a ban on sex. I still wish it was discouraged though. * stare at media* As I said before, that's why I don't advocate it, but I still can't in good conscience go against my beliefs. Society would laugh out loud if someone tried to make that ban. And it'd feel wrong. Maybe, except I wouldn't marry a non-Christian, and if I had to, I'd move to another country to do it. But that's exactly what it's about, and the values society embraces. Civilation doesn't tend to work on what's nuetral or fair, but both what those in power think is right, and the greediness of people. That's what tends to drive laws and people. The only thing to be done is to try and find a system that's best for the majority of people, and to make that system malleable. I'm not trying to be arrogant or presumptuous. Neither am I trying to take away the right of gay people to fight for what they want. But I still can't stand here and say being gay is okay without lying. To me, it's not okay, and people who are need prayer, and the Lord to change them. Can you get me the verses? 'Kinder'? I hold him responsible for man's evil. He's the reason behind death, and lying, and genocide, and disease, and prejudice on and on... I HATE SATAN!!! He's a manipulator, and a liar, and the one who's trying to drag people to Hell. He's far crueler. God lets you know what He wants, but satan just wants to take you down with him. God wants to Save, but satan only to destroy. I hate no man on this earth, but I absolutely hate satan. I don't. Great balls of burning gas light up our sky, we live on a rock that flies around one if those balls, other balls are dense enough to suck in light, subatomic particles reappear and disappear and yet solid objects remain stable, there is no color only light, they think there's this particle called dark matter that's keeping the universe from collapsing in on itself....Science is far stranger then a Creator. And I really think controversial issues should be addressed in school, because learning should mean something. People are still spoken to. Go to a non legalistic church and ask if anyone there has heard the Lord. My mom's heard Him. I've heard. I know a girl on this site who's an athiest who converted because she heard Him the one time she went to church. I'll give you her username if you want. The point is, His voice is alive and well. I love learing about psycholgy and science to, but I still attribute a lot of things to Him. Just because we can explain something doesn't make it any less miraculous. Good, but don't expect me not to take a stance against it just because I'm not offended. wink The Bible says He wants us hot or cold. Maybe He's waiting for you to get cold enough.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:00 pm
Another small note: Satan isn't trying to drag us to Hell. He's simply acting on God's orders.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:05 pm
xLady Tsukiyox Another small note: Satan isn't trying to drag us to Hell. He's simply acting on God's orders. Difference of belief. I still think he's evil and God's gonna destroy him.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:08 pm
xxEternallyBluexx xLady Tsukiyox Another small note: Satan isn't trying to drag us to Hell. He's simply acting on God's orders. Difference of belief. I still think he's evil and God's gonna destroy him. To me satan is a figure made for us so we know what is "bad", as when we know and understand evil we can act good. But making it all a law for all people? There are too many of them... Besides when is that destroying of satan supposed to happen? When the event is gone and I can keep my overseer's gift? I think the only one that can destroy evil is the one who estabilished good/bad: the human being.
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Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:59 pm
xLady Tsukiyox Semiremis xLady Tsukiyox If a Muslim were to make a law saying that all women were to wear a hijab I wouldn't have a problem with it. I mean as a woman of Russian descent, many Russian women young and old wear a head covering, it's meant for modesty but it also keeps your ears from getting cold. And if you're in the desert it keeps scorpions from attacking you. So really the hijab has many purposes and can be beneficial to different parts of the country that has harsh summers and very harsh winters. Not only that but hijabs are very pretty. :3 Also, somewhere in the Bible it says that women have to wear headcoverings as a part of repenting for Eve's sin or something. And there are Israeli women, who do wear hijabs. It's not just a Muslim thing but it's a cultural thing. If a Christian were to make a similar saying that all women had to wear them would you feel the same way? I'm a Christian. I still wouldn't care. I mean seriously, it's within my mixed up culture. Besides my ears get freaking cold when the wind blows. Wearing a headscarf wouldn't hurt. Hell if someone was Japanese forced women to wear kimonos I would wear one, or someone Chinese forced women to wear a Qi Pao, I'd wear it, or Gothic Lolita, or a Sari, etc. I'd wear it. I love global fashions verses our own. Our fashions are tasteless. =.= Hell I'd even wear a corset. razz
Without being forced?
You're not mocking anyone or wearing it to offend people.
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