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Squall of SeeD

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:34 pm


Patches O Hannigan: I stickied this, just for reference for all the members of the guild. I truly didnt even understand everything in the story, until I read this, so it's a good read.

Due to the riduculus amount of misconceptions I have witnessed be displayed in this Thread and the equally -- if not more so -- ridiculus nature of many, I feel it my duty to here clarify some of the matters concerning Sephiroth and JENOVA, offering the actual facts that the game presents to us, not material from FanFic Land.


--Begin--

The JENOVA Thesis:



Explanation of JENOVA:

JENOVA is an ancient lifeform that arrived on the Planet Gaia some 2,000 Years before the main events of the game. Seemingly, it had used the Spell Meteor to cause the Planet's great wound known as the Northern Crater. Whether it traveled to the Planet on Meteor, or Summoned it before arriving on the Planet is unknown, but in any case, this being the Cetra referred to as "The Crisis from the sky" appeared some time after Meteor's arrival.

The area where Meteor had crashed was known as the Knowlespole in those days, and was likely a lush and fertile land, as it was the home of a Cetra tribe that had cultivated it. These Cetra at the Knowlesple had been the first to discover the Planet's wound and attempted to help the Planet heal, using their abilities to guide the Planet's flow of Spirit Energy to the wound. However, the wound was too severe, and would have to be left to the Planet to heal on its own. Further still, due to the Planet's Spirit Energy being redirected to the Northern Crater, the land around the area of the Crater -- the Cetra's Knowlespole -- withered away, and the Planet tried to persuade the Cetra to leave. As they prepared to abandon their land, a being appeared at the Northern Crater and approached them, feigning friendship, appearing to them through psychic illusions as their dead relatives. When it got close enough, it infected those Cetra it could with a virus that caused insanity and physical transformation into monsters, and then proceeded to approach other Cetra clans and do the same to them. This being was JENOVA, the Crisis from the Sky:

Quote:
"Tell us Ifalna... Where is the land called 'Knowlespole'?"

"Knowlespole refers to this area. The Cetra then began a
Planet-reading."

"Ifalna, what exactly does Planet-reading entail?"

"...I can't explain it very well, but it's like having a
conversation with the Planet..."
"It said something fell from the sky making a large wound."
"Thousands of Cetra pulled together, trying to heal the Planet..."
"But, due to the severity of the wound, it was only able to heal
itself, over many years."

"Do the Ancients, rather, the Cetra, have special powers to heal
the Planet?"

(She shakes her head.)

"No, it's not that kind of power. The life force of all living
things on this Planet becomes the energy."
"The Cetra tried desperately to cultivate the land so as not to
diminish the needed energy..."

"Hmm, even here so close to the North Cave, the snow never melts."
"Is that because the planet's energy is gathered here to heal its
injury?"

(She bows her head.)

"Yes, the energy that was needed to heal the Planet withered away
the land... then the Planet..."
"The Planet tried to persuade the Cetra to leave the Knowlespole,
but..."

(The doctor shrugs.)

"Ifalna... Let's take a break."

(She shakes her head)

"I'm all right... When the Cetra... were preparing to part with
the land they loved..."

(She turns away)

"That's when it appeared!"
"It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead
brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

"Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't
any idea."

"That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis
from the sky', as we call him, came."

(She covers her face with her hands.)

"He first approached as a friend, deceived them, and
finally...... gave them the virus."

(She looks up again.)

"The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad...
transforming into monsters."

(She sinks to the floor. The scientist runs over to her)

"Then, just as he had at the Knowlespole."
"He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with...
the virus..."



A small number of surviving Cetra banded together and mounted an assault on the Crisis from the Sky, defeating and sealing her/it/him away (though how is not explained). JENOVA is eventually discovered by Shin-Ra and Dr. Gast, studied, and falsely believed to have been a Cetra by Professor Gast. Sadly, he and his assitant Hojo extract some of the alien's Cells and use them to the effort of enhancing Sephiroth in an attempt to create a new Ancient, and thus a great many of the problems that have to be faced by AVALANCHE and Gaia begin.

Whether JENOVA is an Alien from another Planet, a Demon, or even a judgement sent by God, is unknown.

In regard to the creature's gender, while it typically appears as a Female during the main events of the game, in light of its ability to change its shape ("Sephiroth: 'Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the power of Jenova.'"), it -- or a part of it to be more specific -- taking the form of Sephiroth at least once (due to when the Sephiroth form seen at the Northern Crater slaughtering black-cloaked folks descends in front of AVALANCHE, the screen transitions from the envrionment map to the battle map with JENOVA-DEATH being in place of the Sephiroth form), and some forms of JENOVA having what could be beards (seen here and here), it cannot be reasonably classified as Female with any strong measure of certainty, nor as Male. It may very well be genderless.


(Note: That JENOVA had taken a Male's form before this point, and that the Cetra had not even identified it as having a gender for certain is something that might be fallaciously made reference to based on the following dialogue:

Quote:
"Who is the person that appeared at the North Cave? I haven't
any idea."

"That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis
from the sky', as we call it, came."

(She covers her face with her hands.)

"It first approached as a friend, deceived them, and
finally...... gave them the virus."

(She looks up again.)

"The Cetra were attacked by the virus and went mad...
transforming into monsters."

(She sinks to the floor. The scientist runs over to her)

"Then, just as it had at the Knowlespole."
"It approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with...
the virus..."

(Bolded for emphasis.)

Other times, JENOVA is simply referred to as an "it":

Quote:
Cloud: "...Did it get away? Jenova...?"


Quote:
Barret: "Where's its $#&*&@ head? This whole thing's stupid. Let's keep goin'."


Quote:
Ifalna: "When the Cetra... were preparing to part with the land they loved..."

(She turns away)

"That's when it appeared!"
"It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead
brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

(Bolded for emphasis)

(Note (continued): While the PlayStation Version of FFVII's script has JENOVA being referred to as a "he" during certain parts of Ifalna's story related in the Original Crisis Reports seen at Icicle Inn, in the PC Version of the script, in which many errors were corrected, all dialogue during the Original Crisis Reports refers to JENOVA as an "it." Taking this into account, the gender references within the PlayStation version of the script would not be valid in regard to discussing the matter of JENOVA. JENOVA's shapeshifting abilities and having appeared in Sephiroth's form at least once, as well as with some of JENOVA's forms having what appear to be beards tells us that JENOVA cannot reasonably be considered as definitely being Female, or definitely having a gender at all.)


Explanation of the Powers of JENOVA:


Based on what we're told by Ifalna ("It looked like... our... our dead mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."), and the illusions that appear during the Reunion so as to display the events that had taken place in Nibelheim five years before the main events of the game -- being that even if Sephiroth created those illusions, suchs powers to do this would have likely come from JENOVA -- we know that JENOVA has the capacity to create powerful illusions of a realistic nature.

We also know that JENOVA has the capacity to shapeshift or at least appear to take different forms by altering the perceptions of those who see it:

Quote:
Sephiroth: "The ability to change one's looks, voice, and words, is the
power of Jenova."


We're further made aware of this through seperated parts of JENOVA -- such as its arm -- being able to transform into large creatures that were even complete with their own heads, despite being seperated from the head of JENOVA's body, and the main body itself. We're further made aware of this through at least one of the seperated parts of JENOVA having taken on the form of Sephiroth, as we're shown through JENOVA-DEATH's transformation and possibly the appearance of JENOVA-LIFE, as well.

We also know that those with JENOVA Cells within them can be controlled by the will of either JENOVA or Sephiroth, with that being's will able to permeate each JENOVA Cell, despite them being seperated.

We're also made aware that the JENOVA Cells were capable of phasing through solid objects, and then solidifying again afterward, similar to the Martian Manhunter/Jonn Jonz of DC Comics (who was also a shapeshifter) as we see a form of Sephiroth -- that I personally believe to have been JENOVA's arm transformed to appear as Sephiroth -- phase up through the floor in the Cargo Ship, after having slaughtered the Shinra crew onboard.

While some may argue that it was an astral image, and not at all a solid object, we know that that some solid bit of JENOVA was present there, due to the battle that takes place against JENOVA-BIRTH immediately after the Sephiroth form flies skyward. Regardless of whether or not JENOVA's arm was Sephiroth in disguise there, or if Sephiroth's will was manipulating that piece of JENOVA or one of the Nibelheim experiments to bear his appearance while carrying around parts of JENOVA, the arm of JENOVA was not present until the Sephiroth form phased up through the floor and then flew into the air, meaning that it would have phased through the floor, as well.

We also know that JENOVA's Cells could phase through solid objects and then solidfy once again because either JENOVA in Sephiroth's form or a controlled Nibelheim experiment does so at the Temple of the Ancients, phasing down through the cieling behind Tseng, solidifying and speaking with him momentarily, and then skewering Tseng with its sword.

As for another of JENOVA's abilities, we know that either JENOVA in Sephiroth's form, or Nibelheim experiments under JENOVA or Sephiroth's control, could -- through the presence of the JENOVA Cells within them -- fly or even just float in the air. JENOVA-SYNTHESIS itself, the form of JENOVA fought within the Planet at the bottom of the Northern Crater, flew up to the area where it battled AVALANCHE and was floating during the battle against it.

Based on all these things that we know and that some of these capabilities are displayed by JENOVA herself/itself/himself, that some others are displayed through JENOVA or pieces of JENOVA, and that these powers could not reasonably have come from anyone else but JENOVA in light of us being shown that JENOVA had fantastic psychic abilities over 2000 years ago, we can conclude that JENOVA was a being of vast psychokinetic/telekinetic and telepathic power that, through the virtue of the afore-mentioned abilities, possessed the capacity to alter its form -- or the perception of its form -- at will, create realistic illusions, fly/levitate, phase through solid objects and then solidify once again, and either itself or Sephiroth could use the presence of its Cells in another being's body as a conduit into that being's mind.

As a side note, due in part to these abilities, I feel that JENOVA would have been able to control Sephiroth or, at the very least, manipulate him or his thoughts. As for why, in light of the fact that all of these abilities stemmed from JENOVA, and that Sephiroth's own body was half-composed of JENOVA's Cells, including his brain, which -- by the logic that applies to the minds of Cloud and those in the black cloaks being controllable through the JENOVA Cells within their bodies allowing for their minds to be accessed -- would cause Sephiroth to be even more accessible, and, thus, more easily controlled. In fact, being that JENOVA's own Cells would constitute half of Sephiroth's brain, any thoughts that he may have had may not have even been his own, especially those that he implements throughout the main events of the game in which he seems to be attempting to carry out precisely what had done 2000 years before: Summoning Meteor to cause a wound to the Planet.


Explanation of Sephiroth's identity:


Sephiroth was the Son of Hojo and Lucrecia (though many would argue that he was Vincent's son; however, there is nothing within the game to substantiate this belief). While still a developing fetus in Lucrecia's womb, he was brought into contact with JENOVA Cells through Gast and Hojo's experimentation when the Cells of the ancient being were injected into Lucrecia's womb, the Cells then melding with his still developing body and becoming one with his natural cells, being distributed throughout his entire body as it formed and developed. He was told that his Mother's name was "Jenova," though this was likely a reference to him having been a product of the JENOVA Project, the intent being "The JENOVA Project is your Mother."

Though we're not told what the purpose of the JENOVA Project was, based on Shin-Ra's later actions in regard to Aerith, it's likely that -- as they believed JENOVA to be a Cetra, or Ancient, the original caretakers of the Planet -- the child would be a Cetra having melded with JENOVA's Cells, and that it could lead them to the Promised Land of the Cetra, a land of bliss and peace.

However, at roughly thirty years of age, while on a mission to investigate monster appearances in the Nibelheim area, in the library of the Shin-Ra Mansion, Sephiroth discovers the scientific journals of Professor Gast who believed JENOVA to have been a Cetra. Making a connection between the JENOVA of Gast's experiments and the Jenova he had been told was his mother, as well as contemplating that he may have been produced through experiments involving Mako, he believed himself to be the son of this JENOVA, and that he and JENOVA were the last of the Ancients:

Quote:
Sephiroth
"Hmph... traitor."

Cloud
"Traitor?"

Sephiroth
"You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you."

(He faces the wall.)

Sephiroth
"This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a
itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..."
"At the end of their harsh, hard journey, they would find the
Promised Land and supreme happiness."

(He turns to Cloud.)

Sephiroth
"But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped
their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life."
"They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without
giving one whit in return!"

(He looks down.)

Sephiroth
"Those are your ancestors."

Cloud
"Sephiroth..."

Sephiroth
"Long ago, disaster struck this planet."

(He looks up and walks to another spot, facing the wall.)

Sephiroth
"Your ancestors escaped... They survived because they hid."
"The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your
ancestors continued to increase."

(He looks at Cloud.)

Sephiroth
"Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports."

Cloud
"What does that have to do with you?"

Sephiroth
"Don't you get it?"

(He stands next to Cloud, not facing him, but facing down the hallway.)

Sephiroth
"An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of
2000 years ago."
"The Jenova Project."

(He holds his face.)

Sephiroth
"The Jenova Project wanted to produce people with the powers of
the Ancients..... no, the Cetra."

(He looks up and straightens.)

Sephiroth
"...I am the one that was produced."

(Cloud turns to face him. Sephiroth does not turn.)

Cloud
"Pr... produced!?"

(The camera is now looking at Cloud and Sephiroth from down the narrow
hallway.)

Sephiroth
"Yes."
"Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius
scientist, produced me."

(Sephiroth walks down the hallway, then stops and stands motionless at
the end.)

Cloud
"How... how did he...?"

He runs after Sephiroth, then stops.)

Cloud
"Se... Sephiroth?"

Sephiroth
"Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother."


He then began to believe himself superior to all other humans, and began viewing the rest of humanity as usurpers of a world that rightfully belonged to himself and JENOVA.


After arriving at this belief, Sephiroth proceeds to slaughter the citizens of Nibelheim and raze the town to the ground. Zack and Tifa go after him, Tifa attempting to kill him with his own sword, which he had left behind when he killed her Father. Cloud also follows after, determined to protect Tifa this time, as he had failed to do years before. Tifa and Zack follow Sephiroth to the Mt. Nibel Reactor. After taking his weapon back, nearly fatally wounding Tifa, and then dispatching Zack when he arrives, Cloud charges into JENOVA's Room where Sephiroth is preparing to free the being, grabbing Zack's sword from the floor and carrying it with him as he goes, taking Sephiroth by surprise as he enters and stabbing him in the stomach. While Cloud tends to Tifa, Sephiroth tears JENOVA's head off, likely too weakened from Cloud's attack to take the rest of its body with him, and then attempts to leave, taking JENOVA's head with him. However, Cloud went after him again. As he attempts to leave, Cloud approaches him from behind on the catwalk above the Mako stream that ran beneath the Mt. Nibel Reactor, yet Sephiroth turns and skewers Cloud with his sword. This is when Cloud -- likely in a moment of adrenaline (something of a Limit Break, so to speak) before his body gave out -- lifted Sephiroth off the ground by grasping his sword's blade and using it as a pivot, and proceeded to fling Sephiroth from the catwalk and into the Mako stream below, Sephiroth still holding onto JENOVA's head as he fell.

After this, Sephiroth's body is carried to the Northern Crater where the Planet's Spirit Energy was being constantly directed in order to heal the wound that is the Crater. There, Sephiroth's body becomes encased in Materia and begins drawing in Spirit Energy from around itself, either due to his own will making it so, or due to JENOVA manipulating him into doing so.

Beyond the time of falling into the Mako stream, whether he was acting on his own after JENOVA Synthesis was destroyed, acting in partnership with JENOVA, or if his body (being full of JENOVA's Cells, and therefore susceptible to her/its control) was possessed by JENOVA's will, is unclear. In either case, his body is killed when it disintegrates upon the defeat of his Safer form.

Afterward, the battle of Sephiroth versus Cloud actually takes place solely in Cloud's mind (as is evident by him not having moved from where he was standing before his "journey" to face Sephiroth began), in which Cloud defeats JENOVA/Sephiroth's will, as she/it/him made one final attempt to fight for dominance of his mind and body, him being the only nearby presence with JENOVA Cells and a will that had proven weak enough for being controlled in the past. Whether Sephiroth was in complete awareness and control of his actions, being manipulated by JENOVA, or being outright controlled, he dies in the game's ending, as his body was destroyed and his Spirit Energy is seen being reclaimed by the Lifestream upon Cloud's defeat of JENOVA/Sephiroth's will.

--End--


One can speculate a great extent, yes, but speculation not based on the above matters presented by the game -- and solely by the game -- are no more accurate than those of any Alternate Universe FanFiction. Please do keep the facts in mind as you all speculate. Take care.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:39 pm


Excellent! Glad to see that someone knows what they're talking about. I have found it quite annoying lately that people have a tendancy to make things up because they think it would be cool, and then present a hypothetical statement as if it were fact.

And what's your IQ? I think you may be one of the few people in here more literate than me.

Oh, sorry to digress. Discuss your hearts out, all you theorists out there. (Which I am not.)

sabaal


Serol Starfire

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:26 pm


Hopefully more things like this may pop up in the poeple's heads. I like the sound of that post. Many things in the game are really misunderstood, like this. Keep up the good thoughts mon!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:29 pm


Not only is this a spoiler, but everyoe in the guild shoud see this regardless of weather or not they beat the game

Supra Bandit1


Rktikfox

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:06 pm


I'm so happy you're in this guild. Smart people as well as people who aren't too lazy to dig up evidence and type out the info are hard to come by these days...

*bows* heart
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:21 pm


well that really clears up alot for me thx

Darkone264


Sephiroth_Rebirth

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:47 pm


cool, now i know what to say to my friends who dont play gaia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:55 pm


He lying!

The game hints at Vincent being Sephiroth's real father. And there is a hidden event that even says he is. And jenova has no magic, Jenova is a virus, a huge group of cells, that have their own will and mind. They use "The Thing (1980's remix)" as the base for Jenova. The monsters the Cetras turned into was in fact Jenova.

Sephiroth was an anti-hero, to him e was the good guy and that all he did was good. A bad guy does things he know are bad to be bad. Anti-heros are not a hero doing bad things or a bad guy doing good thing. They are those you follow what they believe to be good and right. Sephiroth wanted to take the planet back from the humans. He thought of them as nothing more then ticks feeding on the planet's life blood, slowly killing it. And fire is the best way to kill ticks, and Meteor was Sephiroth's fire.

I bet you hardly ever use Vincent. If you have him in your party when you go to fight Hojo he is shocked by Hojo calling himself Sephiroth's father. Vincent knew Hojo was never the father, not by a long shot. What is the reason Vincent join your party? To Kill Hojo and Find Sephiroth. And Cloud and Zack were both made to be like Sephiroth after he was thrown in the mako. But Zack broke out and took Cloud with him. Cloud was in a coma then, till the time Zack got gunned down by Shinra Troops. Don't say that's not in the game because it is.

So before you go and say I'm wrong, know this. I own the damn game, I found that hidden event, and I use Vincent from the point I got him to the battle against The One Winged Angel.

Sephrioth is an Anti-hero, Vincent is his real father and Jenova is a virus, end of story.

Go ahead and ask Square about what Jenova really was, and who Seephiroth's real father was. They'll tell you the same thing I am.

Don't miss with a true Final Fantasy 7 fan. You'll only end up having your ego busted.

And don't say i'm dumb either. I have a 168 I.Q.

And you didn't use any facts that are given to you by using Vincent. Sorry but you were just schooled.

Rayne_Perrin


W.A.R.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:00 pm


hmm...So Confused confused
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:04 pm


this is getting deep, we need a counter arguement

Supra Bandit1


Spawn of Sephiroth

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:08 pm


RaynePerrin
He lying!

The game hints at Vincent being Sephiroth's real father. And there is a hidden event that even says he is. And jenova has no magic, Jenova is a virus, a huge group of cells, that have their own will and mind. They use "The Thing (1980's remix)" as the base for Jenova. The monsters the Cetras turned into was in fact Jenova.

Sephiroth was an anti-hero, to him e was the good guy and that all he did was good. A bad guy does things he know are bad to be bad. Anti-heros are not a hero doing bad things or a bad guy doing good thing. They are those you follow what they believe to be good and right. Sephiroth wanted to take the planet back from the humans. He thought of them as nothing more then ticks feeding on the planet's life blood, slowly killing it. And fire is the best way to kill ticks, and Meteor was Sephiroth's fire

I bet you hardly ever use Vincent. If you have him in your party when you go to fight Hojo he is shocked by Hojo calling himself Sephiroth's father. Vincent knew Hojo was never the father, not by a long shot. What is the reason Vincent join your party? To Kill Hojo and Find Sephiroth. And Cloud and Zack were both made to be like Sephiroth after he was thrown in the mako. But Zack broke out and took Cloud with him. Cloud was in a coma then, till the time Zack got gunned down by Shinra Troops. Don't say that's not in the game because it is.

So before you go and say I'm wrong, know this. I own the damn game, I found that hidden event, and I use Vincent from the point I got him to the battle against The One Winged Angel.

Sephrioth is an Anti-hero, Vincent is his real father and Jenova is a virus, end of story.

Go ahead and ask Square about what Jenova really was, and who Seephiroth's real father was. They'll tell you the same thing I am.

Don't miss with a true Final Fantasy 7 fan. You'll only end up having your ego busted.

And don't say i'm dumb either. I have a 168 I.Q.

And you didn't use any facts that are given to you by using Vincent. Sorry but you were just schooled.



BULLSHIT

Hojo is sephiroths father it says it! he says it and sephiroth implies it! Vincent went to sleep(really put to sleep but) when he heard lucricia was going into a biological experiment the birth of sephiroth! Hojo takes out an egg from jenova makes all of lucreciaa's eggs sterile puts in jenova's has sex with lucrecia or artificially inceninates her with his sperm! Hojo is Sephiroth biological father Jenova is his biological mother and lucrecia merely the person who bears him in childbirth!!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:35 pm


Spawn of Sephiroth

BULLSHIT

Hojo is sephiroths father it says it! he says it and sephiroth implies it! Vincent went to sleep(really put to sleep but) when he heard lucricia was going into a biological experiment the birth of sephiroth! Hojo takes out an egg from jenova makes all of lucreciaa's eggs sterile puts in jenova's has sex with lucrecia or artificially inceninates her with his sperm! Hojo is Sephiroth biological father Jenova is his biological mother and lucrecia merely the person who bears him in childbirth!!


Hojo did jack s*** to Lucrecia. She did it to herself to save Vincent from being killed by Hojo. She stabbed herself in her gut/womb with a needle full of Jenova cells to make Hojo stop. She even says it. Hojo took the bady away after she gave birth to it. She nearly died from it. And that what drove Vincent to sleep for so long, he thought she was dead.

And Hojo only counts the real Sephiroth as his kid all due to he was married to Lucrecia, but she cheated on him with Vincent. And it is in the game. The memories shown in the cave is not Lucrecia's, they are Vincent's. Sorry but you need to play the game before you think you know it all.

Rayne_Perrin


Supra Bandit1

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:37 pm


We need proof
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:38 pm


RaynePerrin
He lying!

The game hints at Vincent being Sephiroth's real father. And there is a hidden event that even says he is.


Actually, no, there is no such event that says that.

As for Vincent being Sephiroth's father, we know, of course, that Vincent was in love with Lucrecia, however, it is not suggested that those feelings were reciprocated, or that there was even a sexual relationship between them at all. From what we are shown in Vincent's flashback, that Lucrecia loved Hojo is clear -- such as when she rejects Vincent's proposal and is seen kissing Hojo a moment later -- and Vincent resigns himself to that fact, saying "If she is happy then... I don't mind," but we're never given any indication either by Lucrecia's actions then or her words in the present that she loved Vincent. In fact, when seeing her in the present, she makes no indication that she feels any such affection toward Vincent, her concern being solely for Sephiroth.

It should also be noted that this flashback first becomes available on Disc 2, after gaining control of the Shin-Ra Submarine. In effect, Hojo's revelation that he is Sephiroth's Father at the end of Disc 2 qualifies as what is considered in story-telling to be a "last minute revelation." It's the last and most definitivie bit of evidence regarding the Male paternity of Sephiroth. Another aspect of story-telling is that the only possibility that has any evidence to suggest toward it is the one that is fact, especially when there is nothing to contest it within the story itself.

That being the case, with there being the evidence of Lucrecia rejecting Vincent for Hojo, showing no affection toward Vincent when seeing him again in the present after 30 years, and with Hojo's last minute declaration -- which is further made "last minute" by the fact that journeying into the Northern Crater for the final showdown with JENOVA/Sephiroth is made available immediately after the showdown with Shin-Ra, the last battle of which takes place against Hojo -- Hojo has to be accepted as Sephiroth's Father until more evidence from the source material (the game FFVII, the film FFVII: Advent Children, the prequel FFVII: Before Crisis, or Vincent's game Dirge of Cerberus) can be brought forth to suggest otherwise, because at this time, there is no actual evidence in support of Vincent being the Father of Sephiroth, and only unsupported assumption can draw conclusions in that regard.


RaynePerrin
And jenova has no magic, Jenova is a virus, a huge group of cells, that have their own will and mind. They use "The Thing (1980's remix)" as the base for Jenova. The monsters the Cetras turned into was in fact Jenova.


I didn't say that JENOVA used magic. I said JENOVA used psychic abilities. There's a huge difference. Magic is the intereference of spiritual forces in the natural flow of things. Psychic abilities are when one uses their mind in a manner to the effect of communication, moving or altering something's physical status, or to otherwise reality.


RaynePerrin
Sephiroth was an anti-hero, to him e was the good guy and that all he did was good. A bad guy does things he know are bad to be bad.


Actually, no. An anti-hero is one that does things that are usually more characterstic of villains (such as being selfish, or killing criminals instead of locking them away), but benefit the overall good. Examples of these types of characters are Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z, The Punisher in Marvel Comics, and Magus in Chrono Trigger. The character's personal interpretation of their actions is irrelevant in regard to whether or not they are a villain. In Final Fantasy X, (Final Fantasy X Spoilers; highlight the text to read it if you wish) Seymour believed that life was the source of pain and suffering, and, thus, he sought to end all life, killing many before the game's end. He believed he was doing People a favor when he was killing them, but just because he believed that doesn't make him an anti-hero. He's a villain because of what he did: Taking happinessa away from those who lived or preventing them from knowing happiness. Simply because he gave into the pain of life and determined that he would be doing People a favor does not make it so. He was a villain. Likewise would be JENOVA/Sephiroth. For that matter, we never hear anything more in regard to JENOVA/Sephiroth's intentions than this quote:

Quote:
Sephiroth
"...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the
very life of the Planet?"
"Think how much energy would be gathered!"

(He pulls his sword from the ground. His whole body begins to flash,
electrically, as he laughs.)

Sephiroth
"Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me."
"All that boundless energy will be mine."

(He slashes his sword.)

Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."


Tell me where you see even a trace of heroism in that statement, if you would. Those intentions were purely selfish. Nothing in the game ever suggests that JENOVA/Sephiroth's actions were going to be benefit a greater good.


RaynePerrin
Sephiroth wanted to take the planet back from the humans. He thought of them as nothing more then ticks feeding on the planet's life blood, slowly killing it. And fire is the best way to kill ticks, and Meteor was Sephiroth's fire.


Refer to the above quote from the game, as you clearly missed it when you played the game, despite it being the only statement in regard to JENOVA/Sephiroth's intentions. It/he never once says anyting in regard to taking the Planet away from Homo Sapiens because they were killing it.

For that matter, the only time Sephiroth did speak of taking the Planet from the Homo Sapiens was before he fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, and at that time he was speaking of taking it from them because he believed they were usurpers who had taken a Planet that rightfully belonged to the Cetra, and particularly himself and JENOVA:

Quote:
Sephiroth
"Hmph... traitor."

Cloud
"Traitor?"

Sephiroth
"You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you."

(He faces the wall.)

Sephiroth
"This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a
itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..."
"At the end of their harsh, hard journey, they would find the
Promised Land and supreme happiness."

(He turns to Cloud.)

Sephiroth
"But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped
their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life."
"They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without
giving one whit in return!"

(He looks down.)

Sephiroth
"Those are your ancestors."

Cloud
"Sephiroth..."

Sephiroth
"Long ago, disaster struck this planet."

(He looks up and walks to another spot, facing the wall.)

Sephiroth
"Your ancestors escaped... They survived because they hid."
"The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your
ancestors continued to increase."

(He looks at Cloud.)

Sephiroth
"Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports."

Cloud
"What does that have to do with you?"

Sephiroth
"Don't you get it?"

(He stands next to Cloud, not facing him, but facing down the hallway.)

Sephiroth
"An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of
2000 years ago."
"The Jenova Project."

(He holds his face.)

Sephiroth
"The Jenova Project wanted to produce people with the powers of
the Ancients..... no, the Cetra."

(He looks up and straightens.)

Sephiroth
"...I am the one that was produced."

(Cloud turns to face him. Sephiroth does not turn.)

Cloud
"Pr... produced!?"

(The camera is now looking at Cloud and Sephiroth from down the narrow
hallway.)

Sephiroth
"Yes."
"Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius
scientist, produced me."

(Sephiroth walks down the hallway, then stops and stands motionless at
the end.)

Cloud
"How... how did he...?"

He runs after Sephiroth, then stops.)

Cloud
"Se... Sephiroth?"

Sephiroth
"Out of my way. I'm going to see my mother."


Nowhere there did Sephiroth mention the Homo Sapiens killing the Planet.

Further, Sephiroth's intentions (or those of the being in his form, anyway) entirely change after the Nibelheim incident. In the game's present, JENOVA/Sephiroth's intention is to wound the Planet, absorb its Spirit Energy, and become a God-like being, not save the Planet. In fact, by absorbing the energy it would have used to heal itself from Meteor's wound, the Planet would have died.


RaynePerrin
If you have him in your party when you go to fight Hojo he is shocked by Hojo calling himself Sephiroth's father. Vincent knew Hojo was never the father, not by a long shot.


........

Vincent shows less shock than anyone else at that point. All he says is this: "....!" That's all. Being that the others actually show more surprise, by the logic you're employing here, they all must be his father.

And in the event that you don't pay attention to the beginning of this Post, I'm going to quote what I said there:

Squall of SeeD
As for Vincent being Sephiroth's father, we know, of course, that Vincent was in love with Lucrecia, however, it is not suggested that those feelings were reciprocated, or that there was even a sexual relationship between them at all. From what we are shown in Vincent's flashback, that Lucrecia loved Hojo is clear -- such as when she rejects Vincent's proposal and is seen kissing Hojo a moment later -- and Vincent resigns himself to that fact, saying "If she is happy then... I don't mind," but we're never given any indication either by Lucrecia's actions then or her words in the present that she loved Vincent. In fact, when seeing her in the present, she makes no indication that she feels any such affection toward Vincent, her concern being solely for Sephiroth.

It should also be noted that this flashback first becomes available on Disc 2, after gaining control of the Shin-Ra Submarine. In effect, Hojo's revelation that he is Sephiroth's Father at the end of Disc 2 qualifies as what is considered in story-telling to be a "last minute revelation." It's the last and most definitivie bit of evidence regarding the Male paternity of Sephiroth. Another aspect of story-telling is that the only possibility that has any evidence to suggest toward it is the one that is fact, especially when there is nothing to contest it within the story itself.

That being the case, with there being the evidence of Lucrecia rejecting Vincent for Hojo, showing no affection toward Vincent when seeing him again in the present after 30 years, and with Hojo's last minute declaration -- which is further made "last minute" by the fact that journeying into the Northern Crater for the final showdown with JENOVA/Sephiroth is made available immediately after the showdown with Shin-Ra, the last battle of which takes place against Hojo -- Hojo has to be accepted as Sephiroth's Father until more evidence from the source material (the game FFVII, the film FFVII: Advent Children, the prequel FFVII: Before Crisis, or Vincent's game Dirge of Cerberus) can be brought forth to suggest otherwise, because at this time, there is no actual evidence in support of Vincent being the Father of Sephiroth, and only unsupported assumption can draw conclusions in that regard.


Wishful thinking does not make facts. No matter how much one may wish it to be the case, it isn't. One has to alter the story that was given to us, adding things in and regarding information that is never contested in any way as false, in order to arrive at that conclusion. Essentially, one has to ignore what's actually in the game and make up new stuff.


RaynePerrin
What is the reason Vincent join your party? To Kill Hojo and Find Sephiroth.


Vincent never speaks of finding Sephiroth. The only indication actually given to us by the game as to why Vincent went with Cloud and the others was so that he would be able to see Hojo:

Quote:
Vincent
"Wait!"

(The party turns around as Vincent comes out from his room.)

Vincent
"If I go with you will I meet Hojo?"

(Cloud shrugs.)

Cloud
"Dunno. But we're after him and Sephiroth. So, I guess sooner or
later..."

(Vincent turns away from them)

Vincent
"Lucrecia..."

(He turns back)

Vincent
"All right. I've decided to go with you."



RaynePerrin
And Cloud and Zack were both made to be like Sephiroth after he was thrown in the mako. But Zack broke out and took Cloud with him. Cloud was in a coma then, till the time Zack got gunned down by Shinra Troops. Don't say that's not in the game because it is.


....What are you talking about? I didn't say that wasn't in the game. Christ, please read my Post. You're insulting me and everyone in this Thread, not only with the fact that you're trying to argue your wishful thinking as fact despite there being no support for it, but because you're ingoring what I read and accusing me of saying things I have not. I don't appreciate that. At all.


RaynePerrin
So before you go and say I'm wrong, know this. I own the damn game, I found that hidden event, and I use Vincent from the point I got him to the battle against The One Winged Angel.


If you got this "hidden event," you won't mind telling the rest of us how to get it, then, as no one else has ever seen it. Of course that's because it doesn't exist, but please humor us.


RaynePerrin
Sephrioth is an Anti-hero, Vincent is his real father and Jenova is a virus, end of story.


In FanFic Land maybe, but not in the reality of the game.


RaynePerrin
And you didn't use any facts that are given to you by using Vincent. Sorry but you were just schooled.


................

That's all I have to say in regard to that last ridiculus statement.




Spawn of Sephiroth
Hojo is sephiroths father it says it! he says it and sephiroth implies it! Vincent went to sleep(really put to sleep but) when he heard lucricia was going into a biological experiment the birth of sephiroth! Hojo takes out an egg from jenova makes all of lucreciaa's eggs sterile puts in jenova's has sex with lucrecia or artificially inceninates her with his sperm! Hojo is Sephiroth biological father Jenova is his biological mother and lucrecia merely the person who bears him in childbirth!!


Actually, Spawn, we can't even be sure that JENOVA is Female, or that it would have reproductive eggs. JENOVA isn't Sephiroth's biological mother, either, by the way. Hojo tells us what he and Professor Gast did: Lucrecia was pregnant with Hojo's child. They then injected JENOVA's Cells into Lucrecia's womb with the developing fetus that would become Sephiroth:

Quote:
Cloud
"Sephiroth is your son!?"

(Hojo resumes his work once more.)

Hojo
"Ha, ha, ha..."
"I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast's Jenova
Project."
"When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of
Jenova..."
"HA, HA, HA!!"



Please folks, I beg thee to pay attention to what is actually in the game, and to not try to argue your wishful thinking or unsupported speculation as fact.




RaynePerrin
Hojo did jack s*** to Lucrecia. She did it to herself to save Vincent from being killed by Hojo. She stabbed herself in her gut/womb with a needle full of Jenova cells to make Hojo stop. She even says it.


No, she doesn't. For God's sake, please pay attention to the game.

HERE IS A LINK TO THE GAME'S SCRIPT. YOU WILL NOT FIND THAT ANYWHERE IN THE SCRIPT.


RaynePerrin
And Hojo only counts the real Sephiroth as his kid all due to he was married to Lucrecia, but she cheated on him with Vincent. And it is in the game. The memories shown in the cave is not Lucrecia's, they are Vincent's. Sorry but you need to play the game before you think you know it all.


Nothing in the game ever suggests that there was a sexual relationship between Vincent and Lucrecia. We know he loved her. We're never shown that she cared for him in such a regard. Ever.

Squall of SeeD


Rayne_Perrin

PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:38 pm


BigHotz
We need proof


Play the game. it has everything i been saying.
Reply
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