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Hello everyone,

There's been a lot of concerns from many Gaians regarding the 2% listing fee in the new Gaia Marketplace. It's been a huge debate for all of us on whether we should have it or not, and we're still open to discuss about this issue.

Before we start, I would like to introduce you to Sagger-AT3. He is a staff member who is assigned with the task of helping control the constantly rising prices of items in the marketplace. He has a lot of share on the real reasons and advantages to having a listing fee, and I hope that you can get a chance to listen to what he has to say before we start our discussion.

This thread will also host as a thread to keep everyone updated on the issue. Discussions will happen on other threads in the same forum.

-Lanzer
Hi everyone,

My name is Sagger-AT3, and I've spent the past couple of months studying the Gaia economy closely.

I've spent the past four years pursuing a Ph.D. in economics, so you can say I am both a Gaian and an economist.

So in fact, I'm the first official Gaian economist.

I'll post several small seperate posts about the 2% listing fee issue. I'll start with the big picture, and then address specific concerns that we raised in the Site Feedback forum.
The Big Picture (Macroeconomic effects)

The new marketplace has more information available to all users. More information is better.
The new marketplace allows you to sell more items at a time. More trade is a good thing.

But,

More trade through the marketplace lowers the number of items sold back to the stores. Selling items back to the store is the only way gold leaves the economy (yes, it sounds weird - selling an item back to the store and getting gold actually gets gold out of the system, but when you look at the economy as a whole, this is how it works). So in order to keep "inflation" at the same rate it was before, we have to remove some gold out of the system. A 2% listing fee does exactly that - it's supposed to take out the same amount of gold that the new marketplace design will prevent from flowing out of the system. And it hits the source of the problem - if the marketplace is changing the flow of gold out of the economy, the marketplace is the right place to correct it.


The following post will explain why more information is good, and list some other functions of the fee. After that, we will use the rest of the thread to answer specific concerns the community has raised.
More Information is Better!

In the old marketplace design, critical pieces of information were missing. As a buyer, you were able to see what sellers are currently selling their items for, but you did not know what other buyers were actually paying for it. As a seller, you saw other listings, but again, you did not know if items were still in the vend because they were overpriced, or because it's a slow time of day, slow day of the week, etc. So both sellers and buyers benefit from more information in the marketplace, since both buyers and seller will now be able to see what other users are paying for an item. As a buyer, you don't want to pay too much, and as a seller, you don't want to be paid too little.

As for community members making a living buying and selling items in the marketplace - they now have better knowledge of what's going on, and can now sell more items at a time. Another more subtle point is that with more transparency in the marketplace, there will be more buyers and more sellers around, and more opportunities for "professional vendors" to trade. A listing fee will eat some of that increased potential profit, but as a whole, "professional vendors" are not really worse off.

Two more points before we turn to answering specific concerns and reservations that were expressed in the SF forum:
1. The listing fee will prevent price manipulation, maintaining the integrity of the added information.
2. Better information for the Gaia community will also assist in our continuing battle against bots.


That's it!
We now turn to actually answering questions.
A reminder: in order to keep this announcement easy to read, it is locked. We are having lots of threads in the Site Feedback forum, and in the beta testers' guild to discuss these issues.
The following points has been raised by many Gaians:


AvalonWitch

1. Sellers Will Increase Their Prices - AND WILL NOT EVENTUALLY LOWER THEM.
I've been Vending since before I can remember. And the market has always been the same. Once prices inflate, they never deflate a huge amount no matter what the gold sink. They inflate, they deflate slightly, then they inflate back up - higher than the original inflation.

Vendors are in it to make profit, they will simply add 2% to their prices before selling them.
BEFORE YOU SAY: "Well they'll lose MORE if they add 2% to their prices"
THINK: That's 2% they never would have seen anyway - they won't miss it, they still make their target profit. Which leads me to my second point


The idea that prices will rise by 2% (or even more) has one flaw: if sellers can raise their prices by 2%, they can do it today, and do not need the listing fee as a justification.

Furthermore, let’s entertain the idea that sellers in the marketplace only want to get a certain price for their items, and this is the reasons prices now are lower than what they could be. The 2% fee will "force" them into raising prices by a bit more than 2%, just to stay where they were. Even then, any industrious marketplace participant can today buy the item for the price that satisfies current sellers, and still sell it for 2% more. If it could happen, it would have already happened before the fee was introduced .


So will buyers bear the full implications of the listing fee?
No.
If that were true, all sellers now would get 2% less for their items. For 2% less, not all sellers will be willing to sell their items. With fewer items up for sale, the price will increase a little. It will not increase by 2%, and the previous paragraphs explained why. So actually, sellers and buyers will be sharing the costs of the listing fee.

A more technical explanations: draw a supply curve and a demand curve. Their intersection is the market price. Now draw a new supply curve, adjusted with tax. The new intersection between demand and supply, which is the new market price, did not change by the full 2%. This is because demand is not perfectly inelastic, and neither is supply.

GrateGuy

...
I clear out, as well as a lot of Vendors. Large items will no longer be vended on the marketplace, but instead bought and sold on the exchange. The actual amount of transactions on the Marketplace will drop considerably.
...


1. The largest items today are already bought and sold on the exchange.
2. The exchange is less comfortable to use; as a buyer, you need to wade through so many threads, and once you find the right one, you need to read through all the bumps to figure out if it's still available. As a seller, you need to keep bumping your thread, read through lots of posts, and keep the first post updated so potential buyers will still be able to buy. Both buyers and sellers waste a lot of time doing it.
3. The exchange has more uncertainty: When someone is putting up an item for sale, there is no guarantee they actually own the item. When a buyer bids, there is no guarantee they have the gold. Some buyers and some sellers waste a lot of time dealing with bogus sales.

So the net effect will be some people moving to the exchange (lower fee, more time wasted), but more people joining the marketplace (more information and a level playing field). In due time, some of those who moved to the exchange will realize that and come back.
karama

I kinda agree, for cheaper items its okay but for more expensive items its horrible
...


No system is perfect. Every fee brings its distortions. The listing fee is a compromise between several different factors, preventing the new marketplace design from increasing "inflation", and preventing marketplace abuse and price manipulation.

We feel this is making the marketplace a leveled playing field, with more information available to more users, benefiting both buyers and sellers of items at all price levels. Therefore, the fee is the same for all buyers and sellers. We would not want to give rich Gaians or not- so rich Gaians any relative advantage over the other. Hence, a single fee.
Kole_Locke

...
The MP is a way to make gold and it is a game as well.
...


True. With the new marketplace, users who play this game know more about what's going on: more users will play it, and existing users will play it more. So it would have been easier to earn some gold, had the listing fee not been introduced.
AvalonWitch


11. My Solution - Others Added As Necessary

I believe that the idea of an expirable vending license will be sufficient to decrease inflation. Maybe every three, or six months we have to pony up a portion of the original license (500g or 250g) to continue working the marketplace. Making it 1k is unrealistic as it will hurt infrequent sellers but the portion can easily be made up - and still decreases the gold in the economy.

AvalonWitch
Danpachi
I like your idea of a vending lisence that expires, perhaps it could be based on the number of sales a user makes rather than time. That way it effects exchangers in the way they want without hurting normal users as much.


I like that idea as well but my problem with it is that Vendors make several transactions a day. The number would have to be in the 200-400 range for it not to end up costing 250-500g every other day. You know?



Having a renewable vend licence is quite similar to having a listing fee.
In fact, the listing fee is a renewable vend licence that needs to be renewd after every transaction.

Having the fee based on number of vends instead of the amount transacted is making the not- so rich Gaians, who sell cheap items, pay more (in relative terms) than the richer Gaians.
The big picture - some additional notes:

Where does gold come from?
Gold and items flow into Gaia from many different sources: participating in the forums and arena, fishing, shaking trees, solving puzzles, collecting bugs, etc. The rate at which the gold and items flow into Gaia depends on what all Gaians do.

Where does all the gold go?
Gold flows out of Gaia permanently when someone changes their hairstyle, buys a guild, names their house, etc.
The rest of the gold circulates around Gaia, changing hands as Gaians buy items from each other.

When someone buys a store item, some gold is replaced with an item. When the item is "recycled" through the store, it is worth less gold. In this whole process, some gold leaves Gaia. If one Gaian sells an item to another Gaian, through the exchange or the marketplace, no gold nor items leave or enter Gaia. They just change hands.

What will happen because of the new marketplace?

The new marketplace has lots of new features. Some of them are intended to make participation less "risky" - when the price is presented to all participants, no one feels they have been taken advantage of. In the new marketplace, you see the price other users paid for items. So more Gaians will use the marketplace, and those who use it will use it more frequently.

Had this been the only change, it would have shifted the existing balance between the rate at which gold flows into Gaia and the rate of gold flowing out of Gaia. Had this been the only change, the long- term inflation, (which depends on the net rate of flow of gold into Gaia), would have increased.

This may be the place to mention that we have debated and are debating a lot about the rate of inflation. There are almost as many opinions about the "desired" rate of inflation as there are people who debate it. This is why we wish to keep things as close as possible to what they are now.

The new listing / transaction fee is intended to keep the existing net rate of flow of gold and items into Gaia. Since less gold/ items are leaving Gaia through the stores, a bit more needs to leave Gaia through the marketplace.

There will be a small "bump" in prices with the introduction of the new fee, but in the long(er) run, it will settle back on the same rate it is now, since the net flows are going to be the same. And we will be following, and possibly adjusting, to make sure it does.
Why do you keep using quotation marks when you say "Inflation"?

Not all prices rising are inflation.

Monthly collectibles, and event items, are in fixed quantity. And as more Gaians join, demand for these items is rising. Since prices in some sense represent value, we expect prices of old collectibles to rise. This is not "inflation", this is "real price increases". This is a good thing. Your inventory's true value increases over time, since more people want whatever you have.

In contrast to real price increases, inflation is when prices increases due to excess amount of currency flowing into an economy, faster than the rate in which goods and services are created. It is highly debatable whether this is good thing.

The new marketplace and the listing/ transaction fee, we are trying to balance the influence of the MP on the second type of price changes. It will have no influence on the first type of price increases.

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