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Note: Please read the entire first post before commenting. I know the title of the topic may be misleading, as I am not stating that the Mary Sue concept itself is sexist (I do have my theories on that, but that's not what we're discussing here and now), but I honestly couldn't think of a better way to word it that would still seem interesting.

Note Number Two: This is not a defense of Mary Sues. If you'll read this post carefully, that will become very clear. So there is no need to post and tell me why Mary Sues suck. I already know.

Note Number Three: I am using the term "Mary Sue" as a catch-all phrase for any female character that supposedly fits the idea of a character that is "too perfect" (or "too this" or "too that" wink . Other terms include "Author Darling" or "Wish Fulfillment Character" or any number of other labels. I use "Mary Sue" simply because it is the most widely recognized and understood for the points I'm trying to make.


While reading some of the comments on Original Stories posted here on Gaia, as well as discussions here in the Writers forum, I've started to notice something disturbing. There are some definite sexist ideals in the practice of labeling a character as a Mary Sue, and I wonder how many other people have realized it.

First of all, I want to make it perfectly clear that I understand what a Mary Sue is, where the term originated, and what the general concept is when applied to original fiction. I am aware that it is a fanfiction term, but it is often used to describe characters in original fiction, which is what I'm focusing on. Yes, I could use the term "author darling", but Mary Sue is much easier to recognize and understand, so that's the term I use. I also realize that plenty of characters showing up in the Original Stories forum are indeed Mary Sues and deserve to be called such. I am in no way trying to say that Mary Sues do not exist, or that everyone who points out a Mary Sue is sexist or wrong.

That being said, I want to bring attention to the fact that many female protagonists are being wrongfully labeled as Mary Sues for reasons that, in my opinion, constitute sexist views. The saddest part is that these views are generally coming from female commenters.

Here are some of the reasons I've seen for calling a character a Mary Sue, and why I believe they can be sexist in nature:

Note: Please keep in mind that I know these traits CAN APPLY TO ACTUAL MARY SUES. My only issue with these traits is that some people are taking them too far.

1.) "She's too strong/powerful!"
This is the reason that comes up the most often. While I agree that a female main character who is the strongest/most powerful character in the story with little effort and no sort of training to speak of is very much a genuine Mary Sue, I also feel that people are taking this idea too far. I've seen several cases where a main female character is simply strong. Not the strongest. Not super-powered. Not invincible. Just strong. And yet, because she displays a level of strength, she is called a Mary Sue. It has reached the point where any female character who can defend herself at all is labeled a Sue. Sometimes a strong female character is even shown with a stronger male character, and even though the male is clearly more powerful, the female is called "too strong".

2.) "She's too smart/she knows too much!"
Yes, having a main female character who is a genius in all subjects is a big no no (unless you have a great explanation for it or it pertains to the plot in an interesting way), but I see nothing wrong with having a relatively clever main character. And yet, I've seen many intelligent characters called a Sue and criticized for being "too smart".

3.) "She's not squeamish!"
I got this one many, many times for my own story. My character was called a Sue because she wasn't squeamish about blood and gore. People actually told me "Make her more squeamish!" No one told me to make any of the male characters squeamish. Do female characters really have to vomit upon seeing gore or pass out at the sight of blood to be realistic?

4.) "She's too brave!"
Completely fearless characters are annoying, I know. But what's wrong with a little courage? I think it's sad that some female characters are criticized simply for standing up for themselves and facing danger head-on, especially in fantasy or action-oriented stories. Courage in the face of danger is what these stories are all about. The fact that your protagonist is a girl shouldn't change that.

Those are the main ones I keep hearing, but if you know of more and would like to share, please let me know.

The point of this post is to make people see some of the sexist undertones of these reasons, and to encourage everyone to think about WHY they think a character is a Mary Sue. Is it for one of the reasons listed above? If so, maybe you should give it a little more thought.

Again, I want to state that I am NOT attacking everyone who points out a Mary Sue. I've done it myself in the past. There are plenty of "real" Mary Sues out there, and they need to be called out for the author's own benefit (in my opinion, most authors who create Mary Sues do not realize it). But every now and then, there appears a character who is NOT a Mary Sue, but is unjustly labeled as such simply because she is a strong, capable female.

And before someone brings up Gary Stus and the fact that they are labeled for many of the same reasons, I'd like to point out that the reasons in and of themselves are not the problem. It's the degree to which they are taken that is the problem. For example, an uber-powerful god-like main character is going to be annoying, whether they be male or female. But it seems to me that the level of acceptable strength/power is vastly different between male and female main characters. The same can be said for intelligence and bravery. I know everyone doesn't do this, but a lot of people will be much more forgiving of a brave, smart male protagonist than they will of a similar female protagonist.

I'd love to discuss this topic with anyone who is open to friendly conversation.

kind of like the way there's a vastly different level of strength/power found in most men and women in everyday life?













sorry. i'm really just busting your balls on that one. i find this thread interesting--despite the fact that sues and stus are a silly concept to begin with that does nothing but lead writers and readers to approach character from some silly set of vaguely presupposed standards instead of considering things at the level of an individual story--and congratulate you on really thinking about things.

LOL, Now I've heard everything rolleyes Mary-Sue isn't sexist shes just an annoying character type that alot of young writers put into their stories I don't see how shes sexist.
That is my view of the mary-sue shes just, not realistic is all and thats definatly not sexist lol, well I got my laugh of the morning. rofl

((I'm going to start this with a lesson on (my opinion of) Mary Sues. This is not aimed at anyone in particular. I'm not saying other people don't know what a Mary Sue is, but some people might not know my opinion of it.))

I think the real problem is that all of these set up red flags saying, "This character is a cardboard cut out. You could find her in every other story on the face of the planet! I didn't come up with an original character, I just took the ones that I saw from the manga I was reading."

Basically, these are all traits that are overused in a lot of stories. So, when you have one, a lot of people (who don't always understand that a Mary Sue is an unoriginal character) immediately assume that there's a list of stuff that, once checked off, equals Mary Sue.

But there isn't a list--at least, not a realistic one. For beginners it's a good idea to follow the 'list' because it will open their mind up to new ideas. But, once you get to a certain point in your writing, you could have a super strong female character who knows everything and isn't squeamish, and she still wouldn't be a Mary Sue.

As for the list, I have another trait to add:

Bitchy Females -- Whenever there's a bitchy female in a story, she's almost immediately considered a Mary Sue. It's not fair at all that you can have bitchy men and they're original. But, I think the true problem with bitchy females is not that they're bitchy, but that they're written badly. They're so generic!


Mary Sue, I think, is a term that can be applied to any character that has the same personality as a character from any kind of comic, action film, or fan fiction. In other words, it's hollow and empty. (And I mean, not exactly taken, but all the favorite parts are taken, like the deep angst, or the super powers, or just an attitude, but the writer doesn't bother to fill the rest of the character in.) (When the entire character is taken... well that's just plagerism. But a lot of times the writers who make Mary Sues aren't experienced enough to take a few concepts (like bitchyness) and create a well developed character.)


And, more than that, I think that word choice shows a great deal more about genericness than the character's traits. For instance:

The man rubbed his beard and chuckled heartily, "I can see where you'd get that impression."


Fred took a swig of beer and wiped the foam from his mangled gray beard with his sleeve. "I can see where you'd get that impression," he said, grinning.

Which one is less generic? Well, to me, the second one is. Why? Because men with beards laugh 'heartily' too much. The first one has that often-too-seen feeling of a jovial older man, probably fat, and some kind of story teller. Not only that, but you get the feeling that the man is laughing about more of an inside joke in the second one, than in the first one. The first it seems like he's laughing at something the very clever protagonist said.

Both of them show the same seen. One of them, though, shows deeper personality traits (the inner sense of humor that's hidden from every one else) while the other shows your typical scene (The Hero is talking to a jovial fat story teller).

Perhaps I'm getting far too into this. And, people are just going to argue with me anyway.

But that's what I think. I think that word choice is what gives a character personality. How they're described, what vibe they get off.


Oh well. That's what I think.

I'm going to have to agree with Spatterdash on this. thankfully I'm not the only one who sees the mary-sue as the first creation of characters of an amateur writer.
My first character was a Mary-Sue in a Star Wars fanfic with made up characters and I just simply adore the character, I don't see how anyone could say mary-sue is sexist thats just silly.

It's only sexist when it's being applied by somebody who's too ignorant of what a Mary Sue really is, I think.

xD My first story had a pretty sad Mary Sue. She wasn't all powerful or anything, she just had the personality of a rock.

The second story had a sexy, strong female character who also managed to be a damsel in distress. Kind of interesting, but she was still Sue-ish.

Thank god I've improved since then... *shudders*

Heh, a lot of my first characters were total Gary-Stus. The "tragic and misunderstood antihero with an angsty past" template got used quite a lot. Most of them were really thoroughly unsympathetic and nasty - one of them was a serial killer, for god's sake, and he was supposedly a good guy, which I think says rather too much about what was going on in my head when I was 13. I think a lot of young writers start out and produce awful characters, because they don't really know better. That's not to say we should go easy on those young amateurs who are silly enough to think everyone else will like their characters too, but we should understand that they're only young and they'll learn in time.
That serial killer character I mentioned got changed and changed over time, piece by piece, and now he's a halfway decent character. He's got very little in common with the original apart from red hair and a cigarette habit, but the evolutionary line is there. Even rotten characters are salvageable, though you may have to throw a lot away.