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Fashionable Gekko

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"The 'Villain' is Bad!"
a quick rant and discussion thread.

~*~


"You do not need a villain- get it through your head."





I’ve seen this far too often, and it has finally gotten on my nerves to the point I must rant. Several authors out there believe that in order to have a good story, especially a fantasy story, you need a villain. Or at the least, I’ve seen them ask things like “Is this a good villain?” or “I need a villain! Helpz!”

Really, you must just stop calling them that. I shall say this much, for a successful story, what you really need is not a villain, but a well-made antagonist. Yes, big word, but bare with me for a while.

An antagonist is synonymous for “rival, adversary, opponent, enemy,” etcetera, etcetera. Don’t get me wrong, they can be villainous. But my point is: for a large variety of stories, you do not see an actual villain, but an antagonist. Villain is synonymous to “criminal, rogue, baddie, scoundrel, bad character”. Now ask yourself this:

Do you want your protagonist to have an adversary or a baddie?

Villain is too small of a range. Frankly a villain makes me think of Captain Hook from Disney’s Peter Pan. While Antagonist makes me think more of Silas or Bishop Aringarosa from The Da Vinci Code. Villains are relatively just baddies who want to do bad things. While an antagonist is a person who has opposing view points or actions to your protagonist.

I shall use a quick example from one of my writings. I have a character who is basically a person economically involved, concerned with his own welfare and the welfare of his close friends, an entrepreneur, but also incredible strict man with an alcohol problem. Protagonist? Nope, he’s my antagonist. If I labeled him as a villain, I’d be lying to myself. He is not a criminal, nor is he rogue. He is simply divergent to my main character.

I prefer to see a character who is simply against your character, with their own points of view, but definitely NOT entirely evil unless they justify their ‘sins and evils’.


My point to this entire rant: You do not need a baddie, a criminal, or a scoundrel, a villain to oppose your character. You need a person who will be opposing your protagonist. They can be described as being a villainous person, they can be a kleptomaniac, but they are not a villain unless you want them to be.

This is simply my viewpoint on the subject, if you wish to object me, do be courteous, do not insult me as a person, but you can disagree kindly and courteously, and support your own theory on the Villain VS antagonist. Nor am I saying all villains are badly constructed things, but I’d like to see people get more involved with their characters and create someone with ambitions, differences, and overall- interesting.

Please, please, share any views you may have, any stories, thoughts, ideas, I'd love to hear anything you have to say.


Peace,
Star~Trail.


Also: No quoting the first post. Thank you. :3
Awesome.

I've only used the occasional 'villain' antagonist in my novels, and whenever I do they always feel like an afterthought in respect to the rest of it. I just don't find them interesting. Fun to read, maybe, but never to write. If he doesn't have a complicated motivation and fully developed personality, I don't want anything to do with him.
I can only say that I agree whole-heartedly. 3nodding
Mmm.
Personally, I don't mind villians. Sometimes there really are people out there doing things for personal gain or spite or what-have-you.
The problem is not in that there are too many villians, methinks, but in that there are too many bad villians.

Also, I like antagonists who, in different circumstances, could have been protagonists. Can't think of any examples but my own at the moment, and I'm not even sure if he could be labeled as 'protagonist' even under different circumstances. confused Eh.
I agree. But I would like to discourage people from accidentally making their antagonist more likeable than their protagonist. I, personally, am sick and tired of reading books and finding myself sympathizing more with the antagonist than the protagonist.

At first I thought I was just a weird, antagonizing reader but the more I discuss with other readers I find many people are attracted to the antagonistic characters because they're more interesting, compelling, and better written.

And while interesting, compelling, and well-written antagonists are ALWAYS a good thing I just want to make sure people try to make their protagonists just as interesting, compelling, and well-written.
I agree to that completely.

I don't believe I've ever used the word 'villain' in my story, much less 'bad guy' or something of equal meaning. It's a bit... annoying when you think of it. Not every story needs an antagonist to make it great, really, but I know for certain that having a 'villain', in many cases would be utterly unessesary. Antagonists can be expanded much more as a character if you really think about it. Saying 'villain' basically crams the character into some ridiculous mold in which said character must be 'bad' and/or 'evil'. As you've used as an example, the antagonist doesn't have to nesessarily be evil, now does he? Your villain is concerned for the welfare of others, an alcoholic, yet not nesessarily 'bad' or 'evil'. He's is then capable of expanding as a character.

You make an interesting point and I like it. It makes a lot of sense. 3nodding

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I'm not going to lie, I love a good villain. I often find them very entertaining. But I definitely agree that not every great story needs a "villain."

I think a perfect example of this can be seen in the anime/manga Death Note. The protagonist of this story is Yagami Light, who uses a Shinigami's Death Note to kill of the criminals of the world. He truly believes that he's good; he's the one fighting off the bad guys. However, L is out to put a stop to this due to the questionable ethics of Light's meathods. L is an amazingly cunning and entertaining antagonist, but he does absolutely nothing that can be considered evil. He is just trying to catch somebody who he believes is a criminal.
Agreed. The only time I use the term "villian" is when I don't feel like typing out "antagonist" on my stupid keyboard where the keys always stick. crying

Fashionable Gekko

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Toyomo16
I'm not going to lie, I love a good villain. I often find them very entertaining. But I definitely agree that not every great story needs a "villain."

I think a perfect example of this can be seen in the anime/manga Death Note. The protagonist of this story is Yagami Light, who uses a Shinigami's Death Note to kill of the criminals of the world. He truly believes that he's good; he's the one fighting off the bad guys. However, L is out to put a stop to this due to the questionable ethics of Light's meathods. L is an amazingly cunning and entertaining antagonist, but he does absolutely nothing that can be considered evil. He is just trying to catch somebody who he believes is a criminal.


L is a good example, yes. He is the antagonist, but definitely not a villain. Death Note is interesting and different for this.

Of course, occasionally, there is that epic villain, often they act in such ways that people just fall in love with them. Those I don't mind, they still have ambitions that are a bit more complicated than the average. I'm also gonna say I adore Megatron from the Transformers series. But in this case, it's also a very direct 'good vs. evil' epitome. So I'm not saying a villain is bad, but it's often better to have an antagonist, depending upon the story used.
wat uve said is very true. There isn't always a call for villains in every story. But i also think that a well written, old fasioned, truly evil Villain can add major points to a story! Captain Hook from Peter Pan is a wonderfull example! Hes really evil for evil's saike and it Works!! But u r right that it doesn't always work..
I've always agreed with this view.

I could take Harry Potter for example. Voldemort is a classic villian- he's evil, discrimintive and kills without mercy. Many readers don't really feel any major hatred towards him because he's so evil its silly.
Then there's Umbrdge- she has a believiable cause, she does believe Harry is lying and she wants to put a stop to it. She has medieval ways of punishing people but she is not wholly evil. She is an antagonist and readers absoulutely despise her.

I'm trying to do this with my story. My antagonist works on the side of Order (as in, some of my protagonists are Disorder). He's a charming guy who is obsessed with charming girls. He's a bit reckless and hates some of the protagonists with an irrational hatred. He just hates things that don't make sense but is quite clever and likes to play mind games with them. He has his good qualaties though- when not clashing with some of the protagonists he is actually quite warm with people who think along the same line as him, just as long as they acknowledge him as alpha to them. Especially girls, he's a bit sexist but not in a mean way. Likes to look after them if he feels they need it and the only female he is ever horrid to is one whom is a form of Disorder.
He's quite straight forward thinking despite his cleverness, he sees in black and white compared to my protagonist- who gets lost in the confusion of the many shades of grey that exist.
    When I think of villain, I think of Disney villains and anime/manga villains, and cartoon villain. (Though, today's cartoons fail to do even that.) But i don't mind them. I suppose it depends on how someone writes it.

    However, I do agree with you. Antagonists are seen mainly in thrillers (if you could call a Dan Brown novel a thriller), whereas the villain appears in a Harry Potter.

    Thus, I will subscribe to this, show this to my friends, and tell them to write better ANTAGONISTS.
I agree.
The protagonist’s enemy doesn't have to be a cackling, orphanage burning, kitten stealing devil to be the story's antagonist.

I like how the line between good and evil can be blurred between the protagonist and antagonist.
On a similar note it makes me think of the comic V for Vendetta where the protagonist is a murderer and a terrorist but he's still seen as the "hero" of the story.
The only real antagonist I have in my novel right now is the ghost of my main character's father, whos trying to get back with the main character's mother even if hes dead.
I agree. There aren't enough people striving for world domination and human suffering for every fiction story written to have somebody in it like that. -_-

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