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A couple months ago, I went to visit my nine year old cousin who, frankly, is an arrogant kid, who doesn't listen to any adult unless they have authority over her. I am not an adult, but I am used to kids showing me imediate respect because, to them, I look like an adult.

Anyway, one of the things that particularly got on my nerves about this girl was how she didn't think I knew any better about writing than she did, even though at the time I was working on my fourth novel, and she was only getting good grades on her fourth grade essays.

One of the things I tried to explain to her was that a paragraph did not have to be five sentences long. I tried to tell her that an essay doesn't have to be five paragraphs long, and the paragraphs can be of varrying length. I tried to explain to her that what determined the size was the content, not some stupid standard her teacher had set for her.

At the beginning of this year I went to creative writing, where, I have to admit, I wasn't particularly fond of my teacher. When I got to know her, she wasn't so bad, but she was extremely strict, and there were quite a few things I dissagreed with when it came to writing. For instance, she marked off points on one of my essays because there was a paragraph that was not at least five sentences long. I don't know what would have happened if I tried to explain to her that a paragraph doesn't have to be a certain length to get the point across, but I have a feeling she probably wouldn't have listened.

Another thing she said was that in professional work, writers never use the word 'I', or 'you'. I am particularly fond of editorials, and I find that generally, writers do use both 'I' and 'you'. I also think it's better to use 'I', because it makes the reader feel less like you are forcing the opinion on them. For instance, compare the two:

"I think children are annoying."

And

"Children are annoying."

There is a subtle difference, but the first is definately better to say. In my teen living class, my teacher says it's always better to say, 'I think', or 'I feel' before you say what you say, that way people can't argue with what you say. For instance:

"I feel sad when you insult me."

instead of

"You are always tring to make me sad, and insulting me."

They can argue, "I'm not trying to make you sad!" to the second one, but to the first they can't.

I know that teachers set paragraph standards for their students, because it's a lot easier than teaching them what a paragraph is actually for. It's easier to just hope they'll pick it up somewhere along their life.


As I'm getting older, and joining highschool, I find myself dissagreeing with teachers more and more often. It's probably just because I'm being more critical, but nonetheless, I want to say just a few things to beginning writers:

*Don't let a teacher tell you what size the paragraph is supposed to be. Any intelligent writer/reader understands that any paragraph can get the job done. For instance, today I made a long rant about why I write fantasy. I said a whole long thing that really could have gotten stuck up into one sentence:

"I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write."

Bot the large rant, and this sentence, both told you the same thing. The only difference was that the size was larger in the other. A paragraph works the same way.

*Don't let a teacher tell you that an essay has to be five paragraphs long. Today, colleges will probably not accept a student if the submission is five paragraphs, simply because there is a chance the student doesn't really know how to write.

*Unless the person who is publishing/grading your work says you cannot use the word 'I', use it when you feel it is appropriate.

*Don't let a teacher/editor/publisher tell you that the genre you write isn't worth anything. That person is obviously very closed minded, and most likely only thinks this way becuase they have a need to feel superior over popular trends.

Basically, don't let other people tell you what to write. That's the beauty of it, the author gets to create it, and shape it how they want to. If other people don't like it, it's no different than someone disliking your hair color, really. I don't know why writers, of all people, have to put their fellow writers down. It doesn't make a lot of sense. You would think writers would understand. But they don't.

If your teacher says something you dissagree with, argue with it by putting it in your writing. If it will hurt your grade, though, follow the standards. But, be sure to not let them restrict you when you do your free writing.
There is a difference between a story and an essay. Naturally, there is also a difference in the way they are written. Saying 'I think this' or 'I think that' isn't really necessary because the whole essay is your opinion. Because it is your opinion you put in details and reasons for why you think that way. Like your sentence: "I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write." Did you ever try to write other genres or are all of your ideas fantasy? The five sentences are your opinion and your reasoning.

Codger

Ironically (and amazingly), I had quite good teachers for writing throughout my school days. Of course, creative writing in high school was a joke (we spent two weeks on prose, and most of the remainder of the semester on haiku), so I wasn't subjected to most of this nonsense.

Your point about some teachers being strict about paragraph length is double-edged, though. If that's the requirements they expect, then yes, they're going to mark you down for not meeting them (unless they understand that you've written a complete paragraph and couldn't have reasonably added another sentence to it), but if they mark you down without paragraph length being a requirement, then yes, take it up with them. Most teachers will listen, and if they've seen that you know what you're doing, will probably change the grade given if you can pose a convincing argument. Curmudgeonly teachers are rather rare (at least in my experience), so it's always worth a try.
TillyMT
*Don't let a teacher tell you that an essay has to be five paragraphs long. Today, colleges will probably not accept a student if the submission is five paragraphs, simply because there is a chance the student doesn't really know how to write.


Having read and helped evaluate some disturbingly large number of college admissions essays in my time, I can say with confidence that this is patent bullshit (pardon my French). The five-paragraph essay is a perfectly good form; it demonstrates a basic familiarity with composition and provides enough space to demonstrate both a writer's competence with language and his ability to form and support a coherent argument. Given the topics selected for college admissions essays, four paragraphs is rarely enough to buttress the main point, and more than six will likely be weakly constructed, given space restrictions. Adhering to the word-count demonstrates a basic ability to follow instructions, which is also pretty handy.

Your example of "I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write." is a fine summary, but it's a piss-poor essay. Nobody cares that it's all you seem to be able to write; that's a personal limitation. If you can highlight and support some points about (for example) fantasy's aesthetic, personal, and cultural values, then someone might start to believe that you aren't wasting your time. Coincidentally, that suggestion falls neatly into a five-paragraph essay. You could certainly divide each of the three topics into sub-topics, making a seven- or nine- paragraph essay, or expand them into entire chapters, writing a dissertation, but a five-paragraph essay is short, sweet, and reasonably comprehensive, perfect for a short essay.

Overall, you show a surprising amount of development for someone your age, but be careful making assertions like this when you clearly (and admittedly) don't have experience in the matter to back it up.
Basics first. Everything else developes later.
I agree with Adrian Mailenna.
Trying to get a kid who is just learning to deviate from what the teacher has explicitely layed out is a bit out of line on your part.
I'd like to take issue with a number of statements you make here. I'll preface my remarks with the statement that currently I'm in grad school in philosophy (a writing-heavy major if ever there was one), and to make a living I work on websites. One of the sites I work on is for the Dean's office at my school, and that's the office that oversees admissions, so I hear a lot about what readers are looking for in admissions essays. During the crazy period when writing submissions get read, the watercooler talk is all complaints about how people don't know how to write. Most of your 'tips' would get a writer taken less seriously, though, not more. Somewhere along the way, you seem to have conflated how academic papers should be written with how short stories should be written. Your cousin is writing academically, not fiction (and your teachers are teaching you academic style). To go point by point:


TillyMT
Another thing she said was that in professional work, writers never use the word 'I', or 'you'. I am particularly fond of editorials, and I find that generally, writers do use both 'I' and 'you'. I also think it's better to use 'I', because it makes the reader feel less like you are forcing the opinion on them.


When she said 'professional', she meant 'academic'. Your professors won't care two pence for what you think. That's not their job, and they don't want your opinions. In academic writing it's considered unprofessional to use personal pronouns. Your teacher wasn't being arbitrary, she was just telling you the standard that will follow you though university-level work and into any professional career that involves technical or academic writing.

The point of avoiding personal pronouns isn't to 'force your opinion on the reader'. If you can support your statements with facts and persuasive reasoning, there whould be no reason to invoke personal opinion. In academic or technical writing, opinions are the stuff that doesn't have enough well-reasoned argumentation behind it to stand on its own. The point of academic writing is to present a point convincingly, back yourself up with facts, then invite disagreement so that you can better understand by talking with people about your ideas.

Intriguingly, if you read most respected editorial columnists (check out the NY Times or WSJ), they'll avoid the personal pronoun when making arguments. It may appear in their columns, but when making arguments they adopt the academic model of assertion-facts-conclusion.

Quote:
I know that teachers set paragraph standards for their students, because it's a lot easier than teaching them what a paragraph is actually for. It's easier to just hope they'll pick it up somewhere along their life.


In my experience, teachers set paragraph limits for their students because most students won't reinforce their argumentation properly if they don't understand how much reinforcement is necessary. It's not really about 'learning what a paragraph is for' so much as learning what level of factual or argumentative support is appropriate for a certain level of discourse (five sentences is supposed a clue to people writing papers that they should have at least three facts to back themselves up. I'll bet your teachers never discounted points for writing longer than five sentences per paragraph!).

Quote:
*Don't let a teacher tell you what size the paragraph is supposed to be. Any intelligent writer/reader understands that any paragraph can get the job done. For instance, today I made a long rant about why I write fantasy. I said a whole long thing that really could have gotten stuck up into one sentence:

"I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write."

Bot the large rant, and this sentence, both told you the same thing. The only difference was that the size was larger in the other. A paragraph works the same way.


I'm not going to reiterate what Adrian said here, because he's spot on.

Quote:
*Don't let a teacher tell you that an essay has to be five paragraphs long. Today, colleges will probably not accept a student if the submission is five paragraphs, simply because there is a chance the student doesn't really know how to write.


Actually, the admissions office I work in loves to see a well-written 5-paragraph essay. The format is standard because it's conducive to well-explained theses, and if you can use that framework like it's supposed to be used to make a persuasive point, there are few better arguments for the fact that you are a good writer. Longer stuff tends to be rambling and not well-constructed, shorter stuff tends to be vague.

Quote:
*Unless the person who is publishing/grading your work says you cannot use the word 'I', use it when you feel it is appropriate.


I already explained the academic establishment's point of view on this above. In short, unless the person you're writing for explicitly tells you that you can use personal pronouns, it's better to avoid them.

A lot of the things you're saying might be true for creative writing, but you're talking to a younger writer who's not learning to write short stories, but academic essays. The rules are different. Whereas creative writing assignments (and creative writing classes) have relaxed rules, graded papers are a different species, and have definite rules which should be observed for more than just semantic reasons. Don't complain when a younger writer is learning the basics of solid essays, and don't undermine the teachers who are trying to prepare her for the expectations that she'll face later in her academic career.
I would argue that "children are annoying" is better than "I think children are annoying."

By dropping the "I think", you strengthen the sentence, give it some backbone, some determination to stand for what it believes in.
I wont get so literate as the others have, some of your points are reasonable, but some are off.

Meaning, that when writing an essay, your making a point, you need to write facts and stick to the point so it is clear and precise. Short storys on the other hand are more creative, something brought from your imagination.

If you were to make an arguement about say....why is it good for children to get out more and play instead of sitting in side on the computer all day. Now you would then write several or more facts about why children need to get out and run instead of sitting around and being lazy. While writing a story you would have to create a character, a plot line and a setting, then flesh out your character(s) the place and put som feeling to it. Essays and storys just dont go together unless they are build to specificaly help eatch other, and in most cases you will find a short, simple story with a few problems then you have to make an arguement on what is wrong and why, thus you have your essay.

(yeah, my grammar and all thats not the best...any one giving free lessons? PM me, I would like to improve my writing.)
Adrian Mailenna
TillyMT
*Don't let a teacher tell you that an essay has to be five paragraphs long. Today, colleges will probably not accept a student if the submission is five paragraphs, simply because there is a chance the student doesn't really know how to write.


Having read and helped evaluate some disturbingly large number of college admissions essays in my time, I can say with confidence that this is patent bullshit (pardon my French). The five-paragraph essay is a perfectly good form; it demonstrates a basic familiarity with composition and provides enough space to demonstrate both a writer's competence with language and his ability to form and support a coherent argument. Given the topics selected for college admissions essays, four paragraphs is rarely enough to buttress the main point, and more than six will likely be weakly constructed, given space restrictions. Adhering to the word-count demonstrates a basic ability to follow instructions, which is also pretty handy.
Ironically enough, this 'college not accepting five paragraph essays' was something that my English teacher (the same one I'm complaining about, here) told to the class. I'm glad to find out it isn't the case, becuase to tell you the truth I thought it was a little stupid. I'm not saying you should avoid writing five paragraph essays at all costs, I'm saying you shouldn't limmit yourself to them. And really, you shouldn't. There's no right or wrong way to write. That's how I feel, anyway.

Quote:
Your example of "I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write." is a fine summary, but it's a piss-poor essay. Nobody cares that it's all you seem to be able to write; that's a personal limitation. If you can highlight and support some points about (for example) fantasy's aesthetic, personal, and cultural values, then someone might start to believe that you aren't wasting your time. Coincidentally, that suggestion falls neatly into a five-paragraph essay. You could certainly divide each of the three topics into sub-topics, making a seven- or nine- paragraph essay, or expand them into entire chapters, writing a dissertation, but a five-paragraph essay is short, sweet, and reasonably comprehensive, perfect for a short essay.
When I gave that example, I was simply showing how things to not have to be long to make sense. I wasn't saying people should take their essays and make them one sentence long, I was simply saying if your paragraph does not need to be longer than a sentence, don't make it longer.

Quote:
Overall, you show a surprising amount of development for someone your age, but be careful making assertions like this when you clearly (and admittedly) don't have experience in the matter to back it up.

Thank you. It was pretty stupid to put something in that I didn't have any evidence of being true!
icyhotpixie
There is a difference between a story and an essay. Naturally, there is also a difference in the way they are written. Saying 'I think this' or 'I think that' isn't really necessary because the whole essay is your opinion. Because it is your opinion you put in details and reasons for why you think that way. Like your sentence: "I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write." Did you ever try to write other genres or are all of your ideas fantasy? The five sentences are your opinion and your reasoning.
I don't agree. In most cases, you're probably right. Especially when someone is writing an editorial, or critiquing someone's work. However...

This is a pretend paragraph of an essay. Read it carefully:

"Rats are intelligent creatures, and although they are not as smart as whales, or dolphins, they require a lot of recreation and attention to live happy lives. They are cute, affectionate, easy to take care of, and can offer as much companionship as a dog or cat."

Now, how are you supposed to separate the facts from the opinions in that? Perhaps you could say it is all opinion, but rats really are social animals. They definately need companionship to live happy lives. In fact, ones that are lonely often die a lot sooner, and a prone to more diseases because of high stress levels. Yet, I also said they are 'cute' which is really up to the person who is looking at them.

Maybe it isn't necessary, but on a subject that is a little closer to home, and could possibly offend someone, it seems like a good idea to not propose anything that isn't a fact as if it were one.

As for the "I write fantasy becuase it's the only thing I seem to be able to write." quote, I was not summerizing an entire essay, I was using it as an example of how something can be shortened down, and doesn't have to be long to make sense. I can answer all of your questions without it taking five sentences, though.

"I write fantasy because when I try writing stories of different genres, I never get any ideas, and even when I do, I get bored of them way too soon."

See, one paragraph, still one sentence. I could even make that two, or three. But it doesn't need to be five.
greywolf0876
I wont get so literate as the others have, some of your points are reasonable, but some are off.

Meaning, that when writing an essay, your making a point, you need to write facts and stick to the point so it is clear and precise. Short storys on the other hand are more creative, something brought from your imagination.

If you were to make an arguement about say....why is it good for children to get out more and play instead of sitting in side on the computer all day. Now you would then write several or more facts about why children need to get out and run instead of sitting around and being lazy. While writing a story you would have to create a character, a plot line and a setting, then flesh out your character(s) the place and put som feeling to it. Essays and storys just dont go together unless they are build to specificaly help eatch other, and in most cases you will find a short, simple story with a few problems then you have to make an arguement on what is wrong and why, thus you have your essay.

(yeah, my grammar and all thats not the best...any one giving free lessons? PM me, I would like to improve my writing.)
I don't think I follow you. I just skimmed (skimmed, I repete) and didn't find anywhere that I said essays and short stories were the same things. But, even if I did, I don't see why it really matters. Sure, the content is different, and so is the format to an extent, but generally the fact that a paragraph doesn't HAVE to be five sentences long goes for both.
Axioma
I would argue that "children are annoying" is better than "I think children are annoying."

By dropping the "I think", you strengthen the sentence, give it some backbone, some determination to stand for what it believes in.

That's true. But backbone and determination also offend more people, and they'll be less open minded to read any other supporting details you have. When people are less offended, in my experience, they seem to pay more attention to what you're actually saying rather than getting hung up on stupid details.
[Alphabravo]
I'd like to take issue with a number of statements you make here. I'll preface my remarks with the statement that currently I'm in grad school in philosophy (a writing-heavy major if ever there was one), and to make a living I work on websites. One of the sites I work on is for the Dean's office at my school, and that's the office that oversees admissions, so I hear a lot about what readers are looking for in admissions essays. During the crazy period when writing submissions get read, the watercooler talk is all complaints about how people don't know how to write. Most of your 'tips' would get a writer taken less seriously, though, not more. Somewhere along the way, you seem to have conflated how academic papers should be written with how short stories should be written. Your cousin is writing academically, not fiction (and your teachers are teaching you academic style). To go point by point:


TillyMT
Another thing she said was that in professional work, writers never use the word 'I', or 'you'. I am particularly fond of editorials, and I find that generally, writers do use both 'I' and 'you'. I also think it's better to use 'I', because it makes the reader feel less like you are forcing the opinion on them.


When she said 'professional', she meant 'academic'. Your professors won't care two pence for what you think. That's not their job, and they don't want your opinions. In academic writing it's considered unprofessional to use personal pronouns. Your teacher wasn't being arbitrary, she was just telling you the standard that will follow you though university-level work and into any professional career that involves technical or academic writing.

The point of avoiding personal pronouns isn't to 'force your opinion on the reader'. If you can support your statements with facts and persuasive reasoning, there whould be no reason to invoke personal opinion. In academic or technical writing, opinions are the stuff that doesn't have enough well-reasoned argumentation behind it to stand on its own. The point of academic writing is to present a point convincingly, back yourself up with facts, then invite disagreement so that you can better understand by talking with people about your ideas.

Intriguingly, if you read most respected editorial columnists (check out the NY Times or WSJ), they'll avoid the personal pronoun when making arguments. It may appear in their columns, but when making arguments they adopt the academic model of assertion-facts-conclusion.

Quote:
I know that teachers set paragraph standards for their students, because it's a lot easier than teaching them what a paragraph is actually for. It's easier to just hope they'll pick it up somewhere along their life.


In my experience, teachers set paragraph limits for their students because most students won't reinforce their argumentation properly if they don't understand how much reinforcement is necessary. It's not really about 'learning what a paragraph is for' so much as learning what level of factual or argumentative support is appropriate for a certain level of discourse (five sentences is supposed a clue to people writing papers that they should have at least three facts to back themselves up. I'll bet your teachers never discounted points for writing longer than five sentences per paragraph!).

Quote:
*Don't let a teacher tell you what size the paragraph is supposed to be. Any intelligent writer/reader understands that any paragraph can get the job done. For instance, today I made a long rant about why I write fantasy. I said a whole long thing that really could have gotten stuck up into one sentence:

"I write fantasy because it's all I seem to be able to write."

Bot the large rant, and this sentence, both told you the same thing. The only difference was that the size was larger in the other. A paragraph works the same way.


I'm not going to reiterate what Adrian said here, because he's spot on.

Quote:
*Don't let a teacher tell you that an essay has to be five paragraphs long. Today, colleges will probably not accept a student if the submission is five paragraphs, simply because there is a chance the student doesn't really know how to write.


Actually, the admissions office I work in loves to see a well-written 5-paragraph essay. The format is standard because it's conducive to well-explained theses, and if you can use that framework like it's supposed to be used to make a persuasive point, there are few better arguments for the fact that you are a good writer. Longer stuff tends to be rambling and not well-constructed, shorter stuff tends to be vague.

Quote:
*Unless the person who is publishing/grading your work says you cannot use the word 'I', use it when you feel it is appropriate.


I already explained the academic establishment's point of view on this above. In short, unless the person you're writing for explicitly tells you that you can use personal pronouns, it's better to avoid them.

A lot of the things you're saying might be true for creative writing, but you're talking to a younger writer who's not learning to write short stories, but academic essays. The rules are different. Whereas creative writing assignments (and creative writing classes) have relaxed rules, graded papers are a different species, and have definite rules which should be observed for more than just semantic reasons. Don't complain when a younger writer is learning the basics of solid essays, and don't undermine the teachers who are trying to prepare her for the expectations that she'll face later in her academic career.

*Sigh* The problem with this back up thing, with sentences, is most children don't follow it the way it's supposed to be. Rather than making new paragraphs when the topic of the first ends, they start it as soon as they reach the end of the fifth sentence, even if they're still talking about the same thing.

Another thing is when you're going a little further off on the same topic, but the begining of a new paragraph is necessary, so you make one, and you get in trouble becuase you started it before you had at least five sentences, even though the paragraph begining seems to be where it should be.

If the teacher wanted to teach me something, in that case, it would be better for her to explain why a new paragraph wasn't necessary, rather than tell me I didn't have enough sentences in the one before.

And no, she never did get mad about having more than five sentences.

I understand there are differences between academic and personal writing. This is why I said that you should avoid doing things that teachers are going to mark you off for.

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up from the angle I did, but I still believe my point is vallid. A paragraph does not HAVE to be at least five sentences to be well written. And I don't think anyone can argue with me about that, because not a single person who has posted here has replied to me in a five paragraph, each paragraph five sentences long format.
After having read the original post and subsequent arguments, I THINK the point Tilly was trying to make seems to have been missed.

It's all well and good to have a basic structure/standard to start with, but it cannot be the end-all-be-all of essay creation. Below is a five sentence paragraph. At least, its five sentences grouped together AS a paragraph, but five sentences written in proximity without a line break does not a paragraph make!

I like hotdogs with mustard and ketchup and relish. My mother goes shopping with my Aunt Petunia on Saturday. My dog tries to eat my hotdogs when I'm not looking. My dog tries to eat my Aunt Petunia when she's not looking. My mother bakes cookies on Sunday.

Now, I could hook five of those paragraphs together and have an award winning essay right? Ok, maybe not. The point is that content is more important than construction. I think Tilly's suggestion that teachers should focus more on content is not out-of-line at all. I'd rather read something that makes sense.

eek

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