You can get banned for wasting someone's time now?

[Skags]

Over 2 months ago I opened up an impromptu dice contest in the chatterbox on my account "Skagz." The original prize was only going to be 100million gold, but I later added 250million gold and an Angelic Halo to the pot. There was no limitation on entries and it was completely free to play, the possible prizes were my own items. The contest was open for over a week and reached over 2000 pages, but after that time I found the item I had been questing (and didn't expect to find so soon), and closed the thread seeing as the prize was no longer available to players. Almost immediately Gaia banned me for closing the thread.

Quote:

Gaia's arguments against me:
1) I scammed the participants because a) by closing the thread I wasted their time, b) they are also trying to claim I never intended on giving out the prizes because I had a buying/selling thread in the wanted/exchange forums.
2) they say that, since I didn't state an end date, the thread was supposed to stay open because someone would have eventually won.

My rebuttals:
1) No one rolled any of the winning numbers, therefore I did not deprive anyone of a prize by closing the thread.

2) For art contests and bump contests this rule makes complete sense, because there is a guaranteed way to win, and putting more time/effort into those contests directly correlates with whether or not you will win. But a dice contest is completely random, rolling once or 100 times does not make a person’s odds any better, there’s no guarantee a person would have won whether I left it open for 1 month, 1 year or even 10 years, that’s just the nature of what “random” means! AND with a dice contest you immediately know as soon as you post whether you have won or not, so no one should have been under the disillusion that they were a winner just because they had a bunch of losing posts. Siskataya's contests illustrated this fact pretty well: even though there were individuals who posted hundreds of times, the angelic halo winner ended up being a user who had only posted in the thread 4 times.

3) According to the ticket, if I had included an end date for the contest I could have closed it without being banned. But I was banned for closing the thread because it scammed people out of time. The logic in their argument here is flat out inconsistent.... I can get banned for wasting peoples time, but it's perfectly okay to waste people's time if there's a date included...

4) I could not find a single statement ANYWHERE on the site (TOS, rules and guidelines, Stickies) stating that closing a contest that doesn't have a winner is against the rules. In fact, the only similar rule I could find was in the lotto forum, where it states you can close a lottery contest as long as you refund contestants their entry fee. Even though my contest was not a lottery, that stickied rule still sets a precedence which they clearly contradicted when choosing to ban me.

5) The prizes were available while the contest was open. Once again, the lotto forum sticky states that you must close a thread if the prize is no longer available. Following this precedence, I closed the thread as soon as the prizes were no longer available.
Keep in mind, the thread prize was: 1 angelic halo, 100 million gold, and 250million gold.
I had 2 angelic halos, and over 700million gold. But because I had a selling thread for a halo, and a buying thread in the wanted forum (a common practice for making profit), they claimed I never intended to give out the prize.

6) Rather than issuing a warning and giving me a chance to reopen the contest, they banned me. The person I had traded all my gold/items to even offered to trade back with me so I could reopen the thread, but Gaia dragged the ticket out so long the player has since quit gaia/donated everything to friends.

7) No one reported me for changing the terms of the contest to add an angelic halo as a prize, but when I changed the terms to remove it they mass reported me - it's a clear example of a double standard.



Essentially, their argument against me breaks down to this: I will remain banned for scamming, because I scammed people out of TIME.
Going by that logic every person who has ever lost a contest has also been "scammed", because they weren't rewarded for their time. Or similarly, it’s pretty common in the exchange for people to close threads without accepting any offers, or backing out of trades they already agreed on. If we apply the same “logic” gaia is using to ban me, all of those people could be banned too.


They refuse to even re-consider the decision despite the mountain of logic stacked against their claims against me, and the arguments they're holding against me are not only inconsistent, but directly contradict actual rules stickied on the site.
I feel like I'm being personally targeted because I have seen many dice and rng contests close without winners, without any repercussions to the host, but because of the size of my prizes people became enraged that they didn't get a free halo and out of greed and spite reported me. Most people agree my banning was unfair, and I don't understand how Gaia can uphold it despite the mountain of evidence supporting that my actions were within site terms...


edit1: Proof I had the prizes I was offering.

http://prntscr.com/1wbkv8

[Frozen Mist]

I support you.

This is the most ridiculous decision I have ever seen come out of gaia.

Like you said, the claims they're making against you directly contradict actual rules, and it doesn't make sense to say its your fault they rolled losing posts...

I've seen people close contests like this before too and get out fine, you're the first person I've seen get banned for it. confused

I seriously hope someone will review your case and give you a 2nd chance, because it seems like they're holding out over sheer stubbornness more than anything else... And that's just not right, when most people agree you don't deserve to be banned.

[kaleidedope]

And about those of us who have wasted all of our time?
Weeks, months, sometimes YEARS people have wasted trying
to obtain quest items only to never be able to achieve that because
of Gaia's incessant need to rerelease gold generators that ruin the
economy and make it impossible for people to obtain items via
gold in the Market Place. What about all that time wasted?

[Myrielle]

I saw that. I think you did things so abruptly that people got incenses and confused. I didn't really understand your motives holding that contest in the first place. With prizes that high, I think there should have been clearer rules and clearer deadlines? It did give the sensation that you just pulled out suddenly when you were able to buy that silver medal. That left ongoing participants with the feeling that it had been a scam all this time and reported it accordingly. People picked up a certain malice in the sudden turn of events and there was no apology nor clear explanation, just some cutesy stuff about closing it. With a contest appearing as big as that one, I wouldn't be surprised if people did feel that those accusations were not baseless. It did seem like a legitimate argument against you at that time.

I would say that Gaia got you by the short hairs on that one. What I didn't like was the absolute finality of their punishment. I would have preferred a temp ban? But then, putting the factor of magnitude could definitely shifted things against you. A contest for 1k would probably be a blip compared to defcon 4 for 100M and a Halo. Sort of how punishment is different for petty larceny and grand larceny. Yes, there are holes in the arguments on both sides. How did you know nobody reported you for this and that? I don't think we have access to the report system? Did the staff mention it during the course of your discussion?

Ultimately, Time is money on Gaia apparently. People wouldn't be so mad with all these direct to CS sales if old questers didn't spend so much time and effort raising funds and only to have the worth and effort negated due to those rereleases. It does mean something to people and it does play into their motivation to do anything on the site.

In the end, I would still favor clemency for your case. You are a first time offender are you not? I guess I do not know you all that well.

[sodium]

A contest with large, valuable prizes with no end date does seem a bit sketchy to me. Did you note anywhere in the thread that it was possible that you would close the contest without a winner?

Contests have to be very clearly written out. It's very easy to feel cheated when a contest changes midway or ends without warning.

[Tenkohime]

I honestly don't recall this being against the rules. AFAIK it's tacky, but permissible. IDGI.

[.~[Misty.Muffin]~.]

You had such a huge prize then closed it suddenly without any kind of notice. Sounds pretty damn sketchy to me. It's one thing if there's an understandable clear disclaimer saying you might close after "_____ weeks" if no one wins, but from what I recall, there was no disclaimer. You just closed it all of a sudden without warning.

I think maybe a perma ban might have been a bit harsh, but I don't necessarily disagree with it.

[Your_NewLunarDoll]

If I'd been involved in this situation I would have reported you for trolling. Time is money. From what I see from responses by those who were aware of it when it happened, you're telling the story very sympathetic to your end. It's been a long time since I've hosted a contest, but you better believe there's a covenant between yourself and the participants that you will not actively be trying to trade/otherwise get rid of the items/gold allocated to the contest. Objectively, this looks bad.

[Leothalis v3]

Soup Dumpling

If I'd been involved in this situation I would have reported you for trolling. Time is money. From what I see from responses by those who were aware of it when it happened, you're telling the story very sympathetic to your end. It's been a long time since I've hosted a contest, but you better believe there's a covenant between yourself and the participants that you will not actively be trying to trade/otherwise get rid of the items/gold allocated to the contest. Objectively, this looks bad.

But it wasn't trolling in the least bit, so wouldn't you be filing a false report?

[Skags]

The size of the prize really shouldn’t make a difference though, because at the end of the day it was my items and gold I was giving away. So even though the amount was larger, that wasn’t at any additional expense to the participants.
I wouldn't compare it to petty larceny vs grand larceny, because since the items were mine to begin with it was essentially a charity that I chose to close, there was no larceny regardless of the size of the prize.

The decision to open the thread was just as spontaneous as my decision to close it, if I knew what I know now I would've been far more thorough adding timelines and such, but I hadn't seen a silver medal sale in ages, I had no idea of knowing that I would find a seller so abruptly. And like I mentioned, the halo wasn't even originally part of the prize, I just added that in nonchalantly well after the thread had been up and running.
There's no way I could have even guessed that they would ban me for choosing to cancel donating my own items, so I didn't realize I even needed to be thorough in setting guidelines.
I understand now that closing the thread left a bad taste with some of the participants since they chose to report me, but nothing I did was against the rules, not even close....

For reference, here is the lottery sticky I've been referring to.
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/lotto-money-games/lotto-money-games-rules-and-guidelines-update-9-29-06/t.13889867_3/#3

Quote:

Refunding is required if the contest closes

Notice it says if the contest closes. It does not say you cannot close a contest.

Quote:

Must have [item] in order to create [item] lottery

Which I did.

Quote:

Grounds for banning also include:

Scamming. We reward our users with Gold and hard to find rares, but we have no tolerance for people who try to take other users' assets with get-rich-quick schemes or promises of rare items. Running any kind of scam - including but not limited to lottery scams or trade scams.

No assets were taken, thereby they are breaking their own definition of a scam by accusing me of scamming people simply over lost time.

[Your_NewLunarDoll]

Leothalis v3

Soup Dumpling

If I'd been involved in this situation I would have reported you for trolling. Time is money. From what I see from responses by those who were aware of it when it happened, you're telling the story very sympathetic to your end. It's been a long time since I've hosted a contest, but you better believe there's a covenant between yourself and the participants that you will not actively be trying to trade/otherwise get rid of the items/gold allocated to the contest. Objectively, this looks bad.

But it wasn't trolling in the least bit, so wouldn't you be filing a false report?

It isn't? A user tells me that I have a chance to win an item, and doesn't up front say that the item may suddenly become unavailable, I put time in, and then quite suddenly the contest is over? Sounds like somebody trying to have a laugh out of somebody. Sounds like that item/gold was never available in the first place.

If the user was always trying to use the items/gold offered to further his quest, were those items/gold ever available for the contest?

Back when I was a CBer, if you had an avi contest or something and then don't follow through with the prizes, you got collared.

edit: after a trip to the CB wilds... the word I'm looking for is scam. You offer items/gold for doing a certain action, and you don't follow through? Scam. The CB rules go into specifics about a few instances, but the rules seem outdated. Yeah. OP should have been more comprehensive about saying under what conditions the contest would end. What it verges on for me is that the items/gold allocated were also being allocated for something else at the same time. It's damning. Objectively you can easily judge OP had no intention of using those items/gold for the contest.

[Frozen Mist]

Soup Dumpling

If I'd been involved in this situation I would have reported you for trolling. Time is money. From what I see from responses by those who were aware of it when it happened, you're telling the story very sympathetic to your end. It's been a long time since I've hosted a contest, but you better believe there's a covenant between yourself and the participants that you will not actively be trying to trade/otherwise get rid of the items/gold allocated to the contest. Objectively, this looks bad.

imo it looks bad on the participants, not the contest owner.
Since everything was coming out of his own pocket for all intensive purposes this was essentially a charitable giveaway. Sooooooooooooooooooooooo many people have backed out on trades with me, even friends who said they were gonna donate something to me then changed their minds, but no way in hell does that give me or anyone else the right to report them!! I spent time and effort working out deals with that person, I turned down other sellers thinking I had a done deal, stuff inflated while I was waiting on them... So yeah, I lost a lot of time and effort when they backed out. But that's not a scam, not at all, because at the end of the day it's their item and they have the ultimate decision in what happens to it. Does it piss me off? sometimes yeah. Sometimes it crushes my hopes. But that doesn't make it any more of a scam. If those people can't be banned for scamming, Skagz shouldn't be banned for scamming either.

Plus he didn't exactly back out on a winner. People had over a whole week to win, and didn't. If I buy a lottery ticket and its losing numbers I can't go back to the store and demand a refund just because I lost and the lottery is over. My original lottery ticket was a losing number, and no amount of time money effort or additional tickets would change that.

The fact that people would report (and ban) him for using his own items on himself, after giving people a real chance at winning them, is so completely ludicrous to me. The fact that he at least closed the thread once the prizes were gone says to me that he was serious about honoring the contest. If someone was really looking to scam the users/waste peoples time they would just let the players keep rolling even after the prize was gone, without updating them.

[Leothalis v3]

Soup Dumpling

Leothalis v3

Soup Dumpling

If I'd been involved in this situation I would have reported you for trolling. Time is money. From what I see from responses by those who were aware of it when it happened, you're telling the story very sympathetic to your end. It's been a long time since I've hosted a contest, but you better believe there's a covenant between yourself and the participants that you will not actively be trying to trade/otherwise get rid of the items/gold allocated to the contest. Objectively, this looks bad.

But it wasn't trolling in the least bit, so wouldn't you be filing a false report?

It isn't? A user tells me that I have a chance to win an item, and doesn't up front say that the item may suddenly become unavailable, I put time in, and then quite suddenly the contest is over? Sounds like somebody trying to have a laugh out of somebody. Sounds like that item/gold was never available in the first place.

If the user was always trying to use the items/gold offered to further his quest, were those items/gold ever available for the contest?

Back when I was a CBer, if you had an avi contest or something and then don't follow through with the prizes, you got collared.

edit: after a trip to the CB wilds... the word I'm looking for is scam. You offer items/gold for doing a certain action, and you don't follow through? Scam. The CB rules go into specifics about a few instances, but the rules seem outdated. Yeah. OP should have been more comprehensive about saying under what conditions the contest would end. What it verges on for me is that the items/gold allocated were also being allocated for something else at the same time. It's damning. Objectively you can easily judge OP had no intention of using those items/gold for the contest.

There are better ways to get a laugh out of people that doesn't involve contests.

No, I'm sure OP had every intention to pay out once the number was won had the item he was seeking not appear. Seeing as what he wanted was not by any means something you commonly stumble upon on either the marketplace or the GE, the contest had the capacity to last for so long and yet nobody would of won in the end had it been given say...a week or so. Would the outcome be the same if he closed after a week? A month?

It's not fair to go straight for a ban.

[whimsei]

im totally on your side
it just sounds like the people who participated in the contest were butthurt about you closing it rolleyes

[Frozen Mist]

Soup Dumpling

What it verges on for me is that the items/gold allocated were also being allocated for something else at the same time. It's damning. Objectively you can easily judge OP had no intention of using those items/gold for the contest.

That's not true though.
He only needed 1 halo and 250million gold for the contest.
He had 2 halos and therefore could have easily sold the 2nd and still had 1 left over for the contest.
He had something around 800million gold, and never dropped below 500mil the entire time the thread was up.

I can vouch for him too since I was giving him advice on the medal, -his- offer would have left enough for the contest prizes. The problem is the seller wasn't willing to haggle, AND the seller originally turned his offer down before skagz had even opened the contest.He did close the thread as soon as the prizes were gone so from what I can see up until the thread was closed people had a very real chance to win the prize. He had no way of knowing someone would actually sell a silver medal to him though, especially since his offer had already been turned down, I've been on this site for years and this was the first time a silver medal has even surfaced in something like 5 years. I can't blame him for taking the opportunity to buy it, because it was probably the last chance he'd get for years, if not ever.
Plus the medal seller was even willing to trade back if someone had won.
If he wasn't serious about giving the prize, why would he even discuss that with the seller?

You (and gaia) have tried to say his actions show he had no intention of giving away the prize, but every example had a failsafe for guaranteeing the prize was available if someone happened to win, until the thread was closed - which at that point shouldn't require a prize since it's obviously closed.