An Open Letter to Gaia.

[WhipWhip]

The user count has never been over 200,000 at one time.

The highest it has been was due to bots.

Just facts.

Anyway, I think that what users want from sites changes, and that could be in part why Gaia has less overall users. The site itself has changed.

It's been 10 years and many of the initial users have grown and moved on, so the site adapts but eventually there will be other more interesting places and people go to those instead.

But Gaia still has a pretty active community for a forum site.

[Andromeda Phoenix]

I always cringe when someone makes these kinds of threads. They're always run out of site feedback.

I can't say that Gaia was ever that popular that people were talking about it. No one spoke about it when I was in high school and I found gaia through an ad in 2k7. sweatdrop

I do however remember the forums moving so much faster than they used to, and it wasn't 'cause of bots. Not in the forums I went to. There were actual users. I will say that even with the bots, Gaia's methods of making money did drive a lot of their userbase away. Then there's the multiple times they ******** with zOMG (soulbinding rings, taking the away the ability to solo without spending tons of cash on powerups [boss instances for example], the "events leading up to Gaia shelving zOMG indefinitely" stuff). There's alchemy. There love of "flash" and "spam the forums until your mouse or fingers break" events. Etc etc.

But I will say this, I can take the CS spam, I can take the alchemy crap and Gaia's fetish with rare items. I'm used to doing without. I can take Gaia constantly abandoning every new feature they ever come up with, and rarely updating the older features (and when they decided to do so, it takes forever). I can take Gaia firing tons of it's staff and being told it wasn't even done 'cause they were short on funds.

However, I'd so leave if Gaia started shoving it's plot in my face. I dislike every single NPC on Gaia. None of them are believable. The majority of them have no backstory, or anything to make them human, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they're all so popular is because fangirls and boys like shoving them into the strangest relationships I've ever seen because "OMG they look cute together" and "two males or females, male(s) and female(s), (or human and creature in some cases) can't be friends unless they're in a relationship". Even the staff do it. *shudder* And when they update their plot or even the character's appearances, whatever was left of the character's personality before that update is slowly whittled away. No...just no. emotion_puke
(If they were to hire a writer who could actually write characters and plot however... emotion_kirakira )

I will however, gladly take more staff to user interaction. And a little more Gaia thinking ahead before they act. And more nice fun forum events along the lines of Halloween 2k7 or the summer event with the camps. And staff paying a little more attention to the older Gaia Games. And a well needed balancing out to how gold is granted out throughout said older games. And if I don't sound too greedy at this point...how about a nice Alchemy update that makes alchemy based on the amount of work you actually put into it instead of "Make Case -> hope you get formula you want" and/or "Make Cache -> hope you get bag that has component you need -> hope that your attempts to make the item when you have the all components actually succeeds". But, that's just me. sweatdrop

[Sakura Latte]

420blaqswag

Sakura Parfait

420blaqswag

gaia is sinking fast and ima bout to jump ship
i hate the cash shop sht
i hate the events
i hate most of the mods (lookin at u reapersun)
i hate the community
i even hate waffles

um reapersun is an artist

ya and i hate her
what up

Why? If you don't like her art, I can understand, but what is it about her as a person that you don't like?

[One Winged Asuka]

Andromeda Phoenix

However, I'd so leave if Gaia started shoving it's plot in my face. I dislike every single NPC on Gaia. None of them are believable. The majority of them have no backstory, or anything to make them human, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they're all so popular is because fangirls and boys like shoving them into the strangest relationships I've ever seen because "OMG they look cute together" and "two males or females, male(s) and female(s), (or human and creature in some cases) can't be friends unless they're in a relationship". Even the staff do it. *shudder* And when they update their plot or even the character's appearances, whatever was left of the character's personality before that update is slowly whittled away. No...just no. emotion_puke
(If they were to hire a writer who could actually write characters and plot however... emotion_kirakira )

Gaia's NPCs are what makes it a world. If you "dislike every single NPC", then you're just here for the forum, and the shopping. You aren't the majority, by a longshot. Most people play a game or join a community because the story intrigues them and they relate to the characters. That's what I'm driving at here- Our characters ARE shallow and unrealistic, I want that to change via a continued storyline and more character fleshing/interaction/something/anything.

If you didn't want to see it, you wouldn't have to read the roleplays, or visit the threads where they'd be posting (they wouldn't be user-driven threads anyway). It would be easily avoided, and it wouldn't affect your gameplay any more than the current storyline does. You'd only see them during holidays and events, like you already do now.

Also, you're bitter about fandoms. Don't drag that reasoning into this because it's not reasoning, it's called 'bias'. The whole idea I'm driving at is for our NPCs to have actual story and writing behind them instead of the bounce-from-pointless-arc-to-arc thing they do right now, where there's never any reasonable conclusion and the closest thing we have to a main character is a mutant grunny.

[One Winged Asuka]

VVhip

The user count has never been over 200,000 at one time.

The highest it has been was due to bots.

Just facts.

Anyway, I think that what users want from sites changes, and that could be in part why Gaia has less overall users. The site itself has changed.

It's been 10 years and many of the initial users have grown and moved on, so the site adapts but eventually there will be other more interesting places and people go to those instead.

But Gaia still has a pretty active community for a forum site.

Do you know why we had so many bots at one time? Do you know why gold was being farmed to begin with? Because there was an off-site market for it. People were buying gold with real money because they actually cared about getting stuff on this website.

We had botters making gold to sell for real money, and they kept coming back because they were making a profit. They were making a profit because there was a demand for it. Because we had a lot of new users coming in that wanted gold.

Because we had new users. NEW USERS. LOTS OF THEM. Why did all that disappear? Because the new users left. They weren't interested. They didn't stick around. Gaia couldn't keep their interest.

That's why the botters left. Not because Gaia's security measures were all so advanced, it's because the crowd moved on. It wasn't profitable anymore. The crowd moving on was not the same as the botters being exiled. You all want to lump the two together, but the fact of the matter is, Gaia was big at one time, and now it isn't.

And not for nothing, their corporate structure was built up to match that community size. And I can't be the only one to think that their recent downsizing in the art department was a recognition that their community shrunk.

I'm not making this stuff up, guys.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT GAIA IS GOING UNDER, SO PLEASE STRIKE THAT FROM YOUR BRAINS RIGHT NOW.

But I am saying that it could go in that direction if they don't get some fresh interest for the site.

And I'm saying that a fresh go on the storyline could be just what the site needs.

And I don't care how many downvotes I get, because I care too much about Gaia to be quiet, regardless of how many users disagree with me, because if anyone at Gaia HQ sees this and takes it into consideration, I know that I'll have done all I could to help.

And that's all I want to do here. I want to help.

[Kain-Senpai]

You know... I wouldn't mind a couple of events similar to Halloween 2K5 and 2K6 (was this the Zurg one? I loved that one because it really got the users together and generated a lot of user-based content, like GiB.)

Gaia needs something to bring the community together. I'm not talking about simple events like the past dragon mini event, but something that can really bring the community together. Like... who shot Ian, and why? The Dark Elf one tried that, but failed miserably when users were out-right threatening anyone who had a Dark Elf avatar. That brought out some really nasty issues that I'd like to not see again. >:

Perhaps a reboot to the site? Similar to FF14. Perhaps the God Kuro has unleashed will eventually bring destruction to the land of Gaia, ushering in a new era? Users would still keep all of their items and such, but it would give them the chance to go and "restart" Gaia from the beginning, with fresh ideas and such. NPCs could still be around, but reincarnated? Or, Gaia could plead to the community to sway the decision of Gaia's future (like voting for Timmy's end and all).

I dunno... it's late. My head is stuffed to the max with snot and I can't breath. Maybe I'm suffering from a lack of oxygen and much needed sleep. >:

[getmeoffthishellsite]

I would love if Gaia worked more with its story and characters. If there's anything that people love, it's waiting to see what will happen next in a story. When I joined Gaia in 2008 I was really amazed with Gaia's towns and some of the NPCs, so maybe doing more with that could bring back a little of that excitement.

[Andromeda Phoenix]

One Winged Asuka

Andromeda Phoenix

However, I'd so leave if Gaia started shoving it's plot in my face. I dislike every single NPC on Gaia. None of them are believable. The majority of them have no backstory, or anything to make them human, and I'm pretty sure the only reason they're all so popular is because fangirls and boys like shoving them into the strangest relationships I've ever seen because "OMG they look cute together" and "two males or females, male(s) and female(s), (or human and creature in some cases) can't be friends unless they're in a relationship". Even the staff do it. *shudder* And when they update their plot or even the character's appearances, whatever was left of the character's personality before that update is slowly whittled away. No...just no. emotion_puke
(If they were to hire a writer who could actually write characters and plot however... emotion_kirakira )

Gaia's NPCs are what makes it a world. If you "dislike every single NPC", then you're just here for the forum, and the shopping. You aren't the majority, by a longshot. Most people play a game or join a community because the story intrigues them and they relate to the characters. That's what I'm driving at here- Our characters ARE shallow and unrealistic, I want that to change via a continued storyline and more character fleshing/interaction/something/anything.

If you didn't want to see it, you wouldn't have to read the roleplays, or visit the threads where they'd be posting (they wouldn't be user-driven threads anyway). It would be easily avoided, and it wouldn't affect your gameplay any more than the current storyline does. You'd only see them during holidays and events, like you already do now.

Also, you're bitter about fandoms. Don't drag that reasoning into this because it's not reasoning, it's called 'bias'. The whole idea I'm driving at is for our NPCs to have actual story and writing behind them instead of the bounce-from-pointless-arc-to-arc thing they do right now, where there's never any reasonable conclusion and the closest thing we have to a main character is a mutant grunny.

Actually I'm not here for Gaia's "world", "NPCs", "forum", or "shopping". Don't assume you know me. Also, you can't assume that the "Majority" of people are here for Gaia's plot when there's more talk about how items are released than anything concerning Gaia "getting back to it's roots". All you have to do is look at the number of likes in your thread, the multitude of topics in both the GCD and Site Feedback. Very few are concerned with "plot and characters". Usually it's mentioned offhandedly. Most of the talk, especially in the GCD is pairing/fandom crap/ridiculousness. I'm not surprised, since considering Gaia's plot and characters there's not much to work with besides such.

Not sure where your attitude came from, especially when I did say, "that I'd be willing to put up with the plot being thrown in our faces if staff could actually write believable characters with equally good plot." I bolded it for you in my original quote, in case you missed it.

[panoptes]

Kain-Senpai

You know... I wouldn't mind a couple of events similar to Halloween 2K5 and 2K6 (was this the Zurg one? I loved that one because it really got the users together and generated a lot of user-based content, like GiB.)

Gaia needs something to bring the community together. I'm not talking about simple events like the past dragon mini event, but something that can really bring the community together. Like... who shot Ian, and why? The Dark Elf one tried that, but failed miserably when users were out-right threatening anyone who had a Dark Elf avatar. That brought out some really nasty issues that I'd like to not see again. >:

Perhaps a reboot to the site? Similar to FF14. Perhaps the God Kuro has unleashed will eventually bring destruction to the land of Gaia, ushering in a new era? Users would still keep all of their items and such, but it would give them the chance to go and "restart" Gaia from the beginning, with fresh ideas and such. NPCs could still be around, but reincarnated? Or, Gaia could plead to the community to sway the decision of Gaia's future (like voting for Timmy's end and all).

I dunno... it's late. My head is stuffed to the max with snot and I can't breath. Maybe I'm suffering from a lack of oxygen and much needed sleep. >:

eek would a reboot take down all the games and stuff?
deplete all the gold?
send rigel and mintaka back where they came from never to return?

[WhipWhip]

One Winged Asuka

VVhip

The user count has never been over 200,000 at one time.

The highest it has been was due to bots.

Just facts.

Anyway, I think that what users want from sites changes, and that could be in part why Gaia has less overall users. The site itself has changed.

It's been 10 years and many of the initial users have grown and moved on, so the site adapts but eventually there will be other more interesting places and people go to those instead.

But Gaia still has a pretty active community for a forum site.

Do you know why we had so many bots at one time? Do you know why gold was being farmed to begin with? Because there was an off-site market for it. People were buying gold with real money because they actually cared about getting stuff on this website.

We had botters making gold to sell for real money, and they kept coming back because they were making a profit. They were making a profit because there was a demand for it. Because we had a lot of new users coming in that wanted gold.

Because we had new users. NEW USERS. LOTS OF THEM. Why did all that disappear? Because the new users left. They weren't interested. They didn't stick around. Gaia couldn't keep their interest.

That's why the botters left. Not because Gaia's security measures were all so advanced, it's because the crowd moved on. It wasn't profitable anymore. The crowd moving on was not the same as the botters being exiled. You all want to lump the two together, but the fact of the matter is, Gaia was big at one time, and now it isn't.

And not for nothing, their corporate structure was built up to match that community size. And I can't be the only one to think that their recent downsizing in the art department was a recognition that their community shrunk.

I'm not making this stuff up, guys.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT GAIA IS GOING UNDER, SO PLEASE STRIKE THAT FROM YOUR BRAINS RIGHT NOW.

But I am saying that it could go in that direction if they don't get some fresh interest for the site.

And I'm saying that a fresh go on the storyline could be just what the site needs.

And I don't care how many downvotes I get, because I care too much about Gaia to be quiet, regardless of how many users disagree with me, because if anyone at Gaia HQ sees this and takes it into consideration, I know that I'll have done all I could to help.

And that's all I want to do here. I want to help.

Why did you ask me if I knew about the bots if you were going to to tell me an answer as if I did not know? I was here. I remember it well.

I posted what I did because the truth of the matter is, is that there were never 200k people online at one time, ~including~ the bots. You've made up figures to support your argument, and I didn't want people who weren't around then reading this and getting incorrect information.

The total users online never hit 200k, even when there were bots. Even before they readjusted the figure a few years back.

If you have concrete proof that there were regularly 200k people online back then, please post it.

Do you have proof that your reason is the only reason why the botters and newer users left? I was online and using the site daily as I always have at that time and the bulk of the botters diminished heavily, immediately as Gaia implemented better security measures to prevent them.

You're "not making this stuff up", correct? Do you have figures to support your claims, with substantiated evidence along with it? I prefer not to call citation, but lately there's a lot of fear mongering going on and I really do not think it is helpful to jump to conclusions about what is happening without considering all possibilities.

I do agree that there are less users online as there once were, but I do not see it as solely for the reasons you outline. They could be a factor, and I do agree Gaia could make changes to gain more users. But the changes I would suggest would be unpopular. Minigames, more focus on community, less diversification and a focus on what they do well.

I still see many people making accounts, I still ~help~ many newer users in QA and WTG forums, and I do believe, after helping so many people, that their main issue with the site is that it is too big, tries to do too many things at once, and these newer users just can't get a grasp on what Gaia actually is about, so they leave.

This is direct from the horse's mouth. I'm in these forums daily and have been for years. People struggle to understand what Gaia is about and it confuses them. Sites like tumblr and facebook have an obvious purpose.

[Crack in my Cornflakes]

I've had an account since 2003, and I have spent the vast majority of that time lurking in this forum, Q&A, and Minishops. I was a helper in this forum for a long time, and then I was a mod, again for a while. Throughout all of that I liked to keep track of random information...I had my reasons for keeping track of how many people were online, but they're kind of unimportant to this thread. rofl

No, I didn't take screen shots (I am not a screenshot type of person), but I do remember thinking at one point in 2005: "Holy crap, there are more people on Gaia right now than live in the city of Portland" and looking it up to see if I was right. I was off by about 200k people, but that's why I remember how many people were online.

There was a point for at least a year when a new release or an event or something of that nature flooded this forum for three solid pages of repeat threads. I remember because I would ask Anlina (my mentor) "can I PLEASE BIN THEM" and she would laugh at me and tell me to wait a few days. Not bots.

There was a time when a new shop in the main Minishops forum got knocked to the third or four page within an hour, when you could bump a auction every four or five hours instead of twice a week. Not bots.

The community here *is* dwindling. That's not necessarily a bad thing. One of my favorite sites in the world only has 750 members, and that's just fine. It just means there needs to be some redirection in marketing and community involvement.

[Dlin]

I will admit to not reading much beyond the first page, so mea culpa if I missed anything important. That said, what I get from the OP is the idea that more story immersion would be a good thing.

I couldn't agree more. Srsly.

Gaia, for me, is at it's best when the community is focused on and gleefully gossiping/speculating about the over all story events. The fact that many story lines have been allowed to languish neglected for ages is just sad, and ultimately destructive to the sense that community matters to staff. I know manga take ages to draw, and are a lot of hard work, but I think that work is worth while. It may not lead to direct sales like cash shop pixels, but it does keep your audience interested, invested and involved in the site. It works even better when the community is part of the story like the Zurg event all those ages ago.

I like the cash shop items, I support the idea that the monthly RIG as a fun thing, because the loads of new pixels I can play with on my avatar is always welcome, as are the small stories and art that go with those pixels. I understand the site needs money to run. But maybe, just maybe, we can be tossed a bone on a more regular basis and let the story telling aspect of Gaia get a higher priority than what, on this end of things, seems like an after thought, or just done to shut up loud complainers.

[One Winged Asuka]

VVhip

Why did you ask me if I knew about the bots if you were going to to tell me an answer as if I did not know? I was here. I remember it well.

I posted what I did because the truth of the matter is, is that there were never 200k people online at one time, ~including~ the bots. You've made up figures to support your argument, and I didn't want people who weren't around then reading this and getting incorrect information.

The total users online never hit 200k, even when there were bots. Even before they readjusted the figure a few years back.

If you have concrete proof that there were regularly 200k people online back then, please post it.

Do you have proof that your reason is the only reason why the botters and newer users left? I was online and using the site daily as I always have at that time and the bulk of the botters diminished heavily, immediately as Gaia implemented better security measures to prevent them.

You're "not making this stuff up", correct? Do you have figures to support your claims, with substantiated evidence along with it? I prefer not to call citation, but lately there's a lot of fear mongering going on and I really do not think it is helpful to jump to conclusions about what is happening without considering all possibilities.

I do agree that there are less users online as there once were, but I do not see it as solely for the reasons you outline. They could be a factor, and I do agree Gaia could make changes to gain more users. But the changes I would suggest would be unpopular. Minigames, more focus on community, less diversification and a focus on what they do well.

I still see many people making accounts, I still ~help~ many newer users in QA and WTG forums, and I do believe, after helping so many people, that their main issue with the site is that it is too big, tries to do too many things at once, and these newer users just can't get a grasp on what Gaia actually is about, so they leave.

This is direct from the horse's mouth. I'm in these forums daily and have been for years. People struggle to understand what Gaia is about and it confuses them. Sites like tumblr and facebook have an obvious purpose.

If you and I agree, why are we arguing? We want the same thing.

Why couldn't you just say that you agreed with my suggestion, instead of picking apart my statistics for no more reason than you could?

I know what I remember from those summers, 200k users online wasn't uncommon, especially during events. Why in the heck would I have screenshot it way back then, who would have thought it would even be important information now?

So what if even a quarter of those online users were bots? That's still 150k actual people on Gaia. That still doesn't negate Gaia's almost 500k likes on Facebook, which can be confirmed.

Gaia has become less popular, there are less users, you said it yourself, you agree.

So again, why are we arguing semantics? We're still talking about a 50% online user drop from 2010, even if we use the current (though inaccurate) "highest number of users online" count of 77k.

And no, I can't prove that my reason is the only reason, because I never asserted that claim. I made a suggestion based on an observation. Just because I bring forward a suggestion that may improve Gaia's situation doesn't mean I'm attempting to be Gaia's messiah. They have a lot of stuff to figure out on their own, but I'll be damned if I don't try and speak my mind, because I think I have a genuinely good idea here, that would be easily implemented with the tools that Gaia already has, wouldn't add excessive strain or workload, and would instantly please a large number of users.

My <3 count be damned, because so many people in this forum are so jaded to new ideas that they dislike anything new on principle, even when it's reasonable, well thought out, and ACTUALLY A GOOD IDEA.. You are proof of that, and you've ADMITTED THAT YOU AGREED WITH MY SUGGESTION. And you STILL have to fight me, just BECAUSE.

[Voat]

to all the number speculation(s) just check out these websites
https://www.quantcast.com/gaiaonline.com
http://www.worthofweb.com/website-value/gaiaonline.com
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/gaiaonline.com
http://www.viunk.com/domain/gaiaonline.com

Some numbers are vastly different from each other though.
although i don't think it takes a genius to figure out gaia's #'s are not as good as they were a couple of years ago. when i first returned to Gaia in 2009-2010 (post bot decimation), numbers as low as 12k Gaians Online were only numbers I'd see at night. In the daytime the numbers would hover around 40-50k. Nowadays Gaia is lucky to see 30k+ during the daytime. The promising thing though is that it looks like the numbers are going back up, at least according to quantcast...and maybe Alexa although it seems like a flat line. Although on both sites it seems like a definite yes that the numbers had dropped between 2012-2013. That's not to say gaia is on a 'death' road or anything 'cause they did stretch out their staff to make the Social group who have their own set of numbers. Just as long as people are still buying Gaia goods with $ that the site can pay their employees with I think things will be ok.

Unrelated:
http://www.crunchbase.com/company/gaia
I didn't know Time Warner invested in Gaia. Haha! It makes me like you a little bit more, Time Warner.

[Lord of the Vine]

One Winged Asuka

VVhip

Why did you ask me if I knew about the bots if you were going to to tell me an answer as if I did not know? I was here. I remember it well.

I posted what I did because the truth of the matter is, is that there were never 200k people online at one time, ~including~ the bots. You've made up figures to support your argument, and I didn't want people who weren't around then reading this and getting incorrect information.

The total users online never hit 200k, even when there were bots. Even before they readjusted the figure a few years back.

If you have concrete proof that there were regularly 200k people online back then, please post it.

Do you have proof that your reason is the only reason why the botters and newer users left? I was online and using the site daily as I always have at that time and the bulk of the botters diminished heavily, immediately as Gaia implemented better security measures to prevent them.

You're "not making this stuff up", correct? Do you have figures to support your claims, with substantiated evidence along with it? I prefer not to call citation, but lately there's a lot of fear mongering going on and I really do not think it is helpful to jump to conclusions about what is happening without considering all possibilities.

I do agree that there are less users online as there once were, but I do not see it as solely for the reasons you outline. They could be a factor, and I do agree Gaia could make changes to gain more users. But the changes I would suggest would be unpopular. Minigames, more focus on community, less diversification and a focus on what they do well.

I still see many people making accounts, I still ~help~ many newer users in QA and WTG forums, and I do believe, after helping so many people, that their main issue with the site is that it is too big, tries to do too many things at once, and these newer users just can't get a grasp on what Gaia actually is about, so they leave.

This is direct from the horse's mouth. I'm in these forums daily and have been for years. People struggle to understand what Gaia is about and it confuses them. Sites like tumblr and facebook have an obvious purpose.

If you and I agree, why are we arguing? We want the same thing.

Why couldn't you just say that you agreed with my suggestion, instead of picking apart my statistics for no more reason than you could?

I know what I remember from those summers, 200k users online wasn't uncommon, especially during events. Why in the heck would I have screenshot it way back then, who would have thought it would even be important information now?

So what if even a quarter of those online users were bots? That's still 150k actual people on Gaia. That still doesn't negate Gaia's almost 500k likes on Facebook, which can be confirmed.

Gaia has become less popular, there are less users, you said it yourself, you agree.

So again, why are we arguing semantics? We're still talking about a 50% online user drop from 2010, even if we use the current (though inaccurate) "highest number of users online" count of 77k.

And no, I can't prove that my reason is the only reason, because I never asserted that claim. I made a suggestion based on an observation. Just because I bring forward a suggestion that may improve Gaia's situation doesn't mean I'm attempting to be Gaia's messiah. They have a lot of stuff to figure out on their own, but I'll be damned if I don't try and speak my mind, because I think I have a genuinely good idea here, that would be easily implemented with the tools that Gaia already has, wouldn't add excessive strain or workload, and would instantly please a large number of users.

My <3 count be damned, because so many people in this forum are so jaded to new ideas that they dislike anything new on principle, even when it's reasonable, well thought out, and ACTUALLY A GOOD IDEA.. You are proof of that, and you've ADMITTED THAT YOU AGREED WITH MY SUGGESTION. And you STILL have to fight me, just BECAUSE.

Actually, its because you're falsifying statistics to fit your need.

Its a problem, but not nearly as large of a rift as you're making it out to be.

Until I see evidence of 200k in 2010, when the numbers really suggest 70k, then I will remain skeptical.