FAQs About Mormonism - Discussion

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre

Darkslider

Pyropyre, there are several fundamental problems with you assertations in the above post.

1. You completely ignore Joseph Smith and his statements about the Church being "The Only True Church Upon The Face of The Earth!"

2. You include a quote from Brigham Young (which I might add, you have taken out of contex. . . remember the fuss you pulled when I used an elipsis in a quote, Bad TBM).

3. You completely ignored other statements by Brigham Young about the Church being the only truth in the universe and if you don't believe it, you will be damned for eternity.

4. Yes, that quote from B. H. Roberts does at first glance seem to support your statement, but then one has to look at things in complete CONTEXT!
a. B. H. Roberts was not a high ranking member of the Church leadership, he was a member of the 70's. As such, what he says cannot be taken as scripture.
b. B. H. Roberts did not believe the Book of Mormon to be completely true, apparently for a significant portion of his time in the 70's.
c. Given the above statement, one might just wonder why you are holding up this "doubting Thomas" to back your stance.

To be perfectly frank with you, I find you to be quite despicible for quoting B. H. Roberts. If you want to go into that statement further. . . I would love to.

Concerning B. H. Roberts, my buddies at the FAIR boards were just having this discussion and they say B. H. Roberts didn't lose his testimony. Why I'd quote "doubting Thomas", is because it came out of The Seventy's course in Theology, first year. And there are many quotes by Apostles that more or less said the same thing he did.

Apostle Orson F. Whitney: "/After quoting several verses from Alma 29.1-9 continues: These verses/ tell one that Providence is over all, and that he holds the nations in the hollow of his hand; that he is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work..../God/ is using men as his instruments. Nor is he limited in the choice of instruments to his own people....Outside the pale of their /prophetic, priesthood/ activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use. Such men as Confucius, Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates and Plato. ...They were servants of the Lord in a lesser sense, and were sent to those pagan or heathen nations to give them the measure of truth that a wise Providence had allotted to them." Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report 91 (April 1921): 32-3.

And Apostle George Q. Cannon, said simular things.

If you think that Brigham Young quote was taken out of context then I have many others. He rejected out of hand the idea that his church monopolized good intentions or righteousness. At times, he praised the virtues of Jews, Protestants, and Catholics.

Have I gotten this Brigham quote out of context too? "With your mind's eye look at the millions of them in all nations who are doing according to the best knowledge they possess. What! the Roman Catholics? Yes and then every one of her daughters down to the latest Protestant Church that has been orgainzed. They are all doing just as well as they can, and living according to the best light they have...What will be their state hereafter? Every faithful Methodist that has lived up to and faithfully fulfilled the requirements of his religion, according to the best light he had, doing good to all and evil to none, injuring no person upon the earth, honouring his God as far as he knew, will have as great a heaven as he ever anticipated in the flesh, and far greater. Every Presbyterian, every Quaker, and every Baptist, and every Roman Catholic member - every reformer, of whatever class or grade, that lives according to the best light they have, and never have an opportunity of receiving a greater light than the one in their possession, will have and enjoy all they live for."

So why did Brigham convert to Mormonism then? Because Brigham felt that Mormonism embraced all truth, both in heaven and on earth, and that the truth belonged to the eternal Gospel of the Son Jesus Christ for whom we are to worship, love, and exemplify.

And yet, your only seen purpose for posting here is to decry me and my kind (read Kiritsu, Keene, Chainmailman, ect.) when all we are saying is the exact same ******** thing.

Yeah, the Church does contain some truth. It has the potential to hold all truth. . . but the organization (not the heirarchy. . .the actual group) is not true.

[Kristy89]

Gadianton

Houshou

A True Church is a Church being lead by Christ. - I agree.
Melchizedek Priesthood being the "One True Priesthood". - Yes and No. From my understanding, The Aaronic (I've never heard mention of the Levitical, but not going to count it out.)

The Levitical order were those who were of the tribe of Levi, they along with those descendants of Aaron, had duties to maintain and to preform ordinances done in the temple. Among other duties they also collected a 'tithe' from the people. This priesthood has also handed down from one generation to another even until the time of Jesus. To make note: Christ refers to one in the parable relating to the good Samaratian. How one fell among the thieves and how a Levite passed him by as well as a priest went by and passed by the man. Both of which held temple duties. I hope that sheds dome light on the subject. Note to also show the contrast between the 2 groups of people the Samaritans were hated by the Jews and like wise. Those who duties it was to help those less fortunate, while a Samaritain shows that love and takes care of this poor fellow.

Well put. blaugh

[Ganseki Senpai]

Speaking of PB's are they really needed or is it just nice to have some personal scripture around. I havent had mine, and neather has my dad, he's 43 and on the high councel, I'm 18 and a good mormon, so it's not like we arent worthy or anything, just wondering if scripturally speeking it should get done. My dads exuse is, he's lived his life so he doesn't need to know anything about it anymore. wink

[Houshou]

Ganseki Senpai

Speaking of PB's are they really needed or is it just nice to have some personal scripture around. I havent had mine, and neather has my dad, he's 43 and on the high councel, I'm 18 and a good mormon, so it's not like we arent worthy or anything, just wondering if scripturally speeking it should get done. My dads exuse is, he's lived his life so he doesn't need to know anything about it anymore. wink

yes, but when you join the military, they can't take religious books and things from you. So I got my PB as that extra thing to read when, /big/ when, I got time to myself in BMT. and that happened for about 2 hours a week...the same 2 hours I was at church. Which I spent sleeping blaugh

[Houshou]

Gadianton

Houshou

A True Church is a Church being lead by Christ. - I agree.
Melchizedek Priesthood being the "One True Priesthood". - Yes and No. From my understanding, The Aaronic (I've never heard mention of the Levitical, but not going to count it out.)

The Levitical order were those who were of the tribe of Levi, they along with those descendants of Aaron, had duties to maintain and to preform ordinances done in the temple. Among other duties they also collected a 'tithe' from the people. This priesthood has also handed down from one generation to another even until the time of Jesus. To make note: Christ refers to one in the parable relating to the good Samaratian. How one fell among the thieves and how a Levite passed him by as well as a priest went by and passed by the man. Both of which held temple duties. I hope that sheds dome light on the subject. Note to also show the contrast between the 2 groups of people the Samaritans were hated by the Jews and like wise. Those who duties it was to help those less fortunate, while a Samaritain shows that love and takes care of this poor fellow.

thank you for clearing that. I knew that the Tribe of Levi was special in some sort of way. Isn't like, they can be Bishops without being ordained?

[Houshou]

Boxy

Houshou

I remember that, now. and speaking of other positions.
Where did the LDS Leaders find it that talks about the Quorum of the 70's?
Did they come up with that calling, or is it actually written? The back of my mind is telling me Deut. somewhere... sweatdrop but that's just a feeling.

Ex. 24: 1 (Ex. 24: 9) seventy of the elders of Israel.
Num. 11: 16 Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel.
Ezek. 8: 11 seventy men of the ancients of the house of Israel.
Luke 10: 1 Lord appointed other seventy.
Luke 10: 17 the seventy returned again with joy.

http://scriptures.lds.org/

Num. I was close on one of them.

[Nephina]

Houshou

thank you for clearing that. I knew that the Tribe of Levi was special in some sort of way. Isn't like, they can be Bishops without being ordained?

This much I do know that if you are a direct leteral decendant of Aaron then yes you can be called as bishop. No you still get ordained. One can act as bishop, if required, without any councelors (sp)
When i used to live in CA there was a stake president who for a time only had 1 councelor.

[Houshou]

Gadianton

Houshou

thank you for clearing that. I knew that the Tribe of Levi was special in some sort of way. Isn't like, they can be Bishops without being ordained?

This much I do know that if you are a direct leteral decendant of Aaron then yes you can be called as bishop. No you still get ordained. One can act as bishop, if required, without any councelors (sp)
When i used to live in CA there was a stake president who for a time only had 1 councelor.

ok, but honestly...I thought it was something a bit more special. oh well.

[Pyropyre]

Houshou

We are taught that the gospel consists of "truth" and that the truths of the world bear witness to the truth of the gospel. It is my testimony that this is true. What is the "truth"? We have glimpses of the truth. Do we have a fullness of the "Truth"? The usage of "a fullness" means we are "full of" or "filled with" truth, we don't have all truth;

Hugh B. Brown, of the First Presidency, wrote: "Let us not think because we feel and know that we have the truth that we have all the truth for there is truth yet to be revealed. Let not our knowledge that we have the truth stifle our search for more truth. Let us build into our characters the kind of faith that will accept the truth when it comes and by its coming perhaps modify some of our ideas about the truth" (The Abundant Life, SLC, Bookcraft 1965: 221).

We won't have all truth until Christ comes again. Until then we just stumble along in our own arrogant ways and hope we discover humility in mean time. Latter-day Saints believe that truth is to be found throughout the earth among men and women in all walks of life, among philosophers, and among people of differing religious persuasions.

We do claim that through the establishment of the Church, we are the "only true church", in the sense that we possess the divine authority to act for God. This authority differentiates the Church from the others. Other systems and organizations may possess other types of authority, but the authority associated with Christ's church, the priesthood, resides only in this one. For example, Paul rebaptized certain Ephesians who had been previously baptized by an unauthorized person (Acts 19:1-6). It is the only true church as its the only church that has the Priesthood of God, and therefore the only organization that can perform baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other ordinations.

Do we believe that there is no truth in other denominations? Heavens, no! There are very good teachings, and very good people in other denominations! The only thing that Joseph Smith condemned in other churches was that which was that which is man-made in them. In a letter he wrote while in Liberty Jail he acknowledged the sincerity of those of other churches:

For there are yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it. (D&C 123:12).

Latter-day Saints have marked a narrow path; Protestants endorses a broad one. There is but "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) and thus one true Church. The point of unity, is not in endorsing an immense doctrinal and denominational diversity.

"...there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided?" 1 Cor. 1: 12 (11-13). The answer is no. Though they might all be Christians, these people were divided and contended with each other, thats not how I think its suppose to work.

[Houshou]

Pyropyre

We do claim that through the establishment of the Church, we are the "only true church", in the sense that we possess the divine authority to act for God. This authority differentiates the Church from the others. Other systems and organizations may possess other types of authority, but the authority associated with Christ's church, the priesthood, resides only in this one. For example, Paul rebaptized certain Ephesians who had been previously baptized by an unauthorized person (Acts 19:1-6). It is the only true church as its the only church that has the Priesthood of God, and therefore the only organization that can perform baptisms, confirmations, marriages and other ordinations.

I never said that the Church didn't have the authority to act in Gods name. And you slightly feel, or acknowledge the same fact that I do. You're just clever about your words. So I brought them out for you. That little tid bit there says you agree with me when I say that God /has/ had, and probably still does have multiple prophets on this earth preaching his gospel. But you go on further to claim that only the LDS Church has the Priesthood. There my friend, we part ways. If it was restored through Joeseph Smith then all those people who broke off from the Church to form, in the very least, the RLDS Church who were given the Priesthood still had it. The only way they would lose it is by going against the word of the Lord. I really don't think the Lord would take away that gift for just setting up a new Church to worship him. That does not sound like the kind and merciful God /I/ know. With that, I believe we are NOT the only ones with the Priesthood. So, I say it is still a farce to claim that. And citing someone saying otherwise, is just them stating that the Church does not recognize these other church's having the priesthood. So that we can still claim that we are the only ones with it.

Pyropyre

Latter-day Saints have marked a narrow path; Protestants endorses a broad one. There is but "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) and thus one true Church. The point of unity, is not in endorsing an immense doctrinal and denominational diversity.

Yes, you are right. However, you are still making the assumption that the LDS Church is it. We claim it. others claim it. In all reality, /a/ True Church is any Church obeying and obiding by Christs Gospel. The one True Church will be fully established when Christ comes again.

Pyropyre

"...there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided?" 1 Cor. 1: 12 (11-13). The answer is no. Though they might all be Christians, these people were divided and contended with each other, thats not how I think its suppose to work.

By using that scripture you have just further backed my standing point that the LDS Church is NOT the only church. This claims that all churches that obey and obide by Christ's teachings all fall under "The Church of Christ." and thus no Church of Christ is seperate from the others, unless it is not of Christ.

[Pyropyre]

[Darkslider]

Pyropyre

Houshou

We are taught that the gospel consists of "truth" and that the truths of the world bear witness to the truth of the gospel. It is my testimony that this is true. What is the "truth"? We have glimpses of the truth. Do we have a fullness of the "Truth"? The usage of "a fullness" means we are "full of" or "filled with" truth, we don't have all truth;

Do you see the mental gymnastics evidenced in the first paragraph?

"We have the truth, the world's truth says so. It is truth. I don't know what truth is."

Jesus.

[Se Ga Takai]

[Houshou]

Pyro, How can you not understand this simple conception that there are only 2 churches on this earth. As described in (1) 1 Nephi 14:10. There is a Church of God and a Church of the Devil. That is all there is. The LDS Church can not be the only true church because of the fact that it later states in (2) verse 14 that all the servants of God are scattered throughout the entire earth! and while yes, the LDS Church is known almost everywhere. I honestly don't think it /is/ everywhere. this leaves a hole in that verse, unless more than one true church exists.

(3) Mosiah 5: 7-9

Quote:

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and havebecome his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.
9 And it shall cometo pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ.

Here in the very BoM is yet another set of scripts that openly says that all who take upon the name of and put their faith into Christ are all considered part of Christ's Church.

(4) Mosiah 25: 22-23

Quote:

22 And thus, notwithstanding there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God
23 and now there were seven churches in the land of zarahemla. And it came to pass that whosoever were desirous to take upon them the name of Christ, or of God, they did join the churches of God;

and another by the same Prophet! This time saying that all Churchs who preach repentance and faith in Christ are all one Church.

other verses to back up my point are.
(5) 1 Cor 1: 3-5
(6) Galations 3: 26-28
(7) 2 Nephi 25: 28-29

all of these back up my point that it is ludacris for the LDS Church to claim One and Only True Church. However, they can still be a True Churchso long as they preach what Christ taught and Faith and redemption through him. I am with Dark, or Keene, or who ever it was that said that the LDS Church is putting to much emphasis on the BoM rather than on Christ.
I've been taught that the BoM is the Key Stone to our religion. and that should it fail, the LDS Church would crumble to it's knees. As it is the one thing that really seperates the Mormons from everyone else out there.
That there is too much emphasis on a worldly item. Christ should be the Key Stone to every religion. NOT SOME BOOK!
Don't get me wrong, I like the BoM. It is a good book. But it is another testament of Christ. making reference to and stating the real thing are like apples and oranges. They can be called the same because they both grow on trees. But that is as close to the same as the get.

[Pyropyre]

Houshou, I'll get back to you, I'll need to go verify somethings, but I do have something to ask, isn't this the Invisible Church Theory? I think thats the where the one true church is made of invisible bonds between all believers. Or something like that?