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Darkslider
Gadianton
Theopneustos
Gadianton
Please show me in the bible where Christ teaches of hatred towards others beliefs. If you disagree thats perfectly ok. But Christ teaches to love one another as I have loved you


So then, if this is the case, then why was Jesus the Christ against the Pharisees and their teachings? I need not show love for what I see as false.


You miss the point. He still had love for them as well as all of Gods children. He possesed charity ehich is the pure love of Christ and never faileth.


For some reason I can't ever remember Theo claiming to be Christ. *Goes back and reads every post of Theo's that can be found*

Nope. I cannot find a single place where Theo claims to be Christ nor any incarnation of Christ.

Bad monkey. Now you have to give up your fruit juice in order to look at other monkey's asses. (This is now scientifically proven. Monkeys will "pay" to look at pictures of female monkey's asses. Read Popular Science. . . you can learn more from it than the Book of Mormon.)


very good maybe I should give to you a cookie. yes he never said that good observation there.
"For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done"
I think ill stick with reading memnoch the devil thank you more much educating than learning about monkeys
Theopneustos
Gadianton
You miss the point. He still had love for them as well as all of Gods children. He possesed charity ehich is the pure love of Christ and never faileth.


Yeah, right. And that's why He called them "a brood of vipers." He also said they belong to their "father" the devil.


"Just be yourself is all that you can do.:"
Gadianton
"Just be yourself is all that you can do.:"


Yeah, okay. I'm out. Later. biggrin
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another , as I have loved you."
Gadianton
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another , as I have loved you."

Don't forget this gem they could subscribe to as well.

Luke 9: 49-50

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Theopneustos
The thing is, I didn't question anything, except for the fact why the Trinity was even brought up. Polytheist.

Isn't it obvious, the Trinity is several times more heretical than the LDS Godhead. Tritheist. I did miss any scriptures that say that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one essence or share the same divine substance. I have a hard time understanding exactly what your definition of the trinity is. Following the scriptures the creed writers followed and talked about, it appears practically identical with my understanding of God as a LDS. "Monotheism" I think is perhaps a little weak in light of the scholarly research of Margeret Barker and others that shows exactly how they were monotheists and yet polytheists in another sense.

You seem to overlook the many scriptures that are clearly subordinational in character. Are you a subordinationist? Do you believe Christ is, in some way, subject to the Father, and the Holy Ghost to the Father and Son, or that the Father is greater than the Son? If not, do you believe that subordinationism is flawed, and why? What do you do with the scriptures that are clearly subordinationist in nature?

If you believe in the creeds and thus reject subordinationism, and use complex explanations as to how one can be three, without being three but only one. The Jews and Muslims don't buy it and view Trinitarians as polytheist.

The following Biblical scholars:

Jeffrey H. Tigay
Bernard M. Levinson
Adele Berlin
Marc Zvi Brettler
Michael Fishbane
Patrick D. Miller

These scholars are LDS and are some of the world's most renowned Old Testament authorities. Yet they all agree with the general polytheistic view permeating throughout the Bible that I have demonstrated in this thread.

In fact, there is not a Biblical scholar in the world who would not accept the fact that both Biblical and ancient Israel believed in a multiplicity of divine beings who governed the universe. What you have not yet realized is that in debating with a Latter-day Saints, there is no way that you can "win" this discussion. On the issue of Gods, the Bible is really quite consistent with my own theological views.

Theopneustos
You're sillier than I thought, not to mention, less respect for you. After being here all this time, I would have thought you knew that I am not even a Protestant.

Now you're being silly, what are you then? You are Trinitarian yet not Catholic, thus does not your church's origins begin with a "protest"ant to Catholic authority, a Reformer who has reformed the church from what they saw out of the bible in comparison to Catholic differences, which I would include non-denominational churches who share protestant beliefs. Explain exactly how you are not a Protestant.

Theopneustos
even after explaining it to you before.

Did you really? Are you objecting to the obvious polytheism of a Trinitarian model? Pretending that the turning of God in to three persons can ever be monotheistic is the ultimate in "twisting and turning". The only true monotheists are Jews and Muslims. The minute you throw in the Son you are no longer a monotheist and all of your twisting and turning is not going to turn a belief in God and a Son into monotheism.
chainmailleman
Oh I have yet to be proven wrong on anything.

Notice that all what I had said earlier was reinforced by the first few replies. Anyone with half a brain can see that.

Reinforced? Then how come Eteponge proved you wrong. You applauded him, but it seems you didn't read anything he said. For instance he rejected to:

chainmailleman
The fact that you have the ability to become a god goes against all teachings of christianity.

Eteponge completely kicked your butt for that remark. I don't understand how you claim you listen to people.
Pyropyre
Isn't it obvious, the Trinity is several times more heretical than the LDS Godhead.


No, not really.

Pyropyre
Tritheist.


Me: What is a Trinitarian heresy?
Alex Trebec: You are correct.
Me: Religion and Philosophy for 400 please?

Pyropyre
I did miss any scriptures that say that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one essence or share the same divine substance.


I'm sorry.

Pyropyre
I have a hard time understanding exactly what your definition of the trinity is.


Or, that you just don't understand the Trinity to begin with.

Pyropyre
Following the scriptures the creed writers followed and talked about, it appears practically identical with my understanding of God as a LDS.


I wonder what those creeds would be. Surely not the Apostle's, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds! rolleyes

Pyropyre
"Monotheism" I think is perhaps a little weak in light of the scholarly research of Margeret Barker and others that shows exactly how they were monotheists and yet polytheists in another sense.


Wow, I wonder where you're getting your source at, plagiarizer.

Pyropyre
You seem to overlook the many scriptures that are clearly subordinational in character.


And you seem to look at so few.

Pyropyre
Are you a subordinationist?


No.

Pyropyre
Do you believe Christ is, in some way, subject to the Father, and the Holy Ghost to the Father and Son, or that the Father is greater than the Son?


No.

Pyropyre
If not, do you believe that subordinationism is flawed, and why?


I don't know. Why don't you answer me that question.

Pyropyre
What do you do with the scriptures that are clearly subordinationist in nature?


I compare them with other verses, of course. If one says that the Father is greater, yet in the other part, it tells that Christ is equal to the Father, then there must be some serious investigation on my part.

Pyropyre
If you believe in the creeds and thus reject subordinationism, and use complex explanations as to how one can be three, without being three but only one.


Three in hypostases, one in substantia.

Pyropyre
The Jews and Muslims don't buy it and view Trinitarians as polytheist.


That's a bit of an overgeneralization on your part. But I digress, I really don't care what they don't buy. They don't even believe that Jesus was the Christ, do they?

Pyropyre
The following Biblical scholars:

Jeffrey H. Tigay
Bernard M. Levinson
Adele Berlin
Marc Zvi Brettler
Michael Fishbane
Patrick D. Miller


Wow. I'm amazed.

Pyropyre
These scholars are LDS and are some of the world's most renowned Old Testament authorities. Yet they all agree with the general polytheistic view permeating throughout the Bible that I have demonstrated in this thread.


So you follow them. That's nice.

Pyropyre
In fact, there is not a Biblical scholar in the world who would not accept the fact that both Biblical and ancient Israel believed in a multiplicity of divine beings who governed the universe.


That's nice.

Pyropyre
What you have not yet realized is that in debating with a Latter-day Saints, there is no way that you can "win" this discussion.


What? I was trying to win in this discussion? "What you have not yet realized is that" I was never debating to begin with. Instead, I simply asked why the Trinity was even brought up. You're the one who started stirring up a debate. I was never in one to begin with. rolleyes

Pyropyre
On the issue of Gods, the Bible is really quite consistent with my own theological views.


So, what? Do you want a cookie for that?

Pyropyre
Now you're being silly, what are you then?


Non-denominational. I find nothing silly in that.

Pyropyre
You are Trinitarian yet not Catholic, thus does not your church's origins begin with a "protest"ant to Catholic authority, a Reformer who has reformed the church from what they saw out of the bible in comparison to Catholic differences, which I would include non-denominational churches who share protestant beliefs. Explain exactly how you are not a Protestant.


Though I am non-denominational, I am not a Protestant. If I were a Protestant, I would not be without a denomination. To say that I am a Protestant is to say that I am with denomination, though the word "non-denominational" does not mean such thing. I am not restricted by any, nor am a associated by any religious denomination.

Pyropyre
Did you really?


Yeah, I actually did.

Pyropyre
Are you objecting to the obvious polytheism of a Trinitarian model?


Again, you don't understand the Trinity. Heck, even Boxy has a better understanding than you. No wonder he's more respected than you.

Pyropyre
Pretending that the turning of God in to three persons can ever be monotheistic is the ultimate in "twisting and turning". The only true monotheists are Jews and Muslims.


Wow, I wonder if they'll get salvation instead. Oops, more overgeneralization coming from you. I have a friend here who is a Messianic Jew, yet he believes in the Trinity. I guess you should call him a polytheist.

Pyropyre
The minute you throw in the Son you are no longer a monotheist and all of your twisting and turning is not going to turn a belief in God and a Son into monotheism.


"The minute you" speak of the Trinity, you really have no clue what you're talking about. Now, again, I didn't come in here to debate, but rather, I asked why the Trinity was even mentioned, when nobody was referring to it until after Boxy did. Yet, nobody was talking about it, until Boxy said something about it. Polytheist. I hope you're not offended by that, seeing that you actually confessed being one now.
My ears are burning sweatdrop
Theopneutos
"The minute you" understand the Trinity, you really have no clue what you're talking about. Now, again, I didn't come in here to debate, but rather, I asked why the Trinity was even mentioned, when nobody was referring to it until after Boxy did. Yet, nobody was talking about it, until Boxy said something about it. Polytheist. I hope you're not offended by that, seeing that you actually confessed being one now.
Okay, okay. Boxy's quick and dirty explanation of the Trinity:

-God the Father (Elohim), Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost all have the same divine potential and authority (one Substance).
-They are still distinctly separate entities, having different bodily forms (three Persons).
-Being "three persons" and having "one substance" in effect forms them into one Godhead: they act as one authority, function in the same capacities on different levels, and for all intents and purposes are "one God".

Thus, the Trinity isn't a terribly difficult concept to grasp from a Mormon perspective. The trouble comes when a huge batch of various generic brands of Trinity Lite(R) start hitting the fan, it gets rather messy sweatdrop Personally, I completely avoid the terminology altogether when explaining to someone, as the more esoteric commentaries are simply gibberish to someone who doesn't understand the intricacies of it.

Other than that, Mormon objections to Trinitarianism are just pot-shots at Sabellianism, which most denominations abhor altogether.

It should also be noted, however, that Mormons consider that all humanity is likewise made of the "same substance", and has the same potential. The degree to which it is expressed in the individual, however, is the difference between "gods" and men. Any exalted being within the Mormon theological structure is capable of administering the Gospel to his or her spirit-children, and for all intents and purposes it would be the same Gospel had it been administered by Elohim himself.

I suppose, then, that both Trinitarianism and Mormonism are forms of "close-knit monolatrist polytheism", where the various "gods" must adhere strictly to Elohim, and that all glory must be given to him. I don't have any more problem with that than I have with the various Christian worshippings of angels. They are the same, in my perspective.
Heres my thoughts on the trinity
If they are all supposed to be 3 in one, thats my view on the trinity. So that means they all share the same qualities charateristics (sp?) and so forth. My feelings is this if Christ has a body as tangable as mans as he says in Luke"For a spirit can not have flesh and bones as ye see me have."
1. How does that correlate where it says that God is a spirit
2. What about the Holy Ghost, The comforter,the 'Spirit', etc.
How can the trinity exsist if one has a body while the others do not.
Without getting into further discussion, Gadianton, I will send you a PM with my explanation. wink
Gadianton
1. How does that correlate where it says that God is a spirit
2. What about the Holy Ghost, The comforter,the 'Spirit', etc.
How can the trinity exsist if one has a body while the others do not.
I suppose that the "Three" numerology breaks down into a "high-middle-low" terminology, or a "celestial-terrestrial-telestial" construction, which while fairly consistent within subordination, it makes absolutely no sense under equalism.

-God the Father is a quickened spirit (his body is a temporal frame rather than the means of his existance).
-Jesus Christ has an exalted body (his body is the framework of his existence currently, and at the time of his presentation of the children of God will he become a "quickened spirit" wink .
-The Holy Ghost is a pre-carnate spirit (he has yet to receive a body).

It seems to make a comparison to a "pre-existence, mortality, exaltation" cycle, as well as a "low-priesthood" (Aaronic priesthood ordination by John the Baptist), "baptism" (Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized each other), "high-priesthood" (Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery ordained each other to the Aaronic priesthood).
Boxy
Gadianton
1. How does that correlate where it says that God is a spirit
2. What about the Holy Ghost, The comforter,the 'Spirit', etc.
How can the trinity exsist if one has a body while the others do not.
I suppose that the "Three" numerology breaks down into a "high-middle-low" terminology, or a "celestial-terrestrial-telestial" construction, which while fairly consistent within subordination, it makes absolutely no sense under equalism.

-God the Father is a quickened spirit (his body is a temporal frame rather than the means of his existance).
-Jesus Christ has an exalted body (his body is the framework of his existence currently, and at the time of his presentation of the children of God will he become a "quickened spirit" wink .
-The Holy Ghost is a pre-carnate spirit (he has yet to receive a body).

It seems to make a comparison to a "pre-existence, mortality, exaltation" cycle, as well as a "low-priesthood" (Aaronic priesthood ordination by John the Baptist), "baptism" (Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized each other), "high-priesthood" (Joseph Smith and Olivery Cowdery ordained each other to the Aaronic priesthood).


This does not take into account the Mormon doctrine of God having a body, though. According to LDS teachings both God and Jesus have bodies. The only member of the "godhead" that doesn't. . . is the Holy Ghost, and even he will get on right before the end.

I like where you are going with this. . .but it still needs some fleshing out.
Boxy
Gadianton
1. How does that correlate where it says that God is a spirit
2. What about the Holy Ghost, The comforter,the 'Spirit', etc.
How can the trinity exsist if one has a body while the others do not.
I suppose that the "Three" numerology breaks down into a "high-middle-low" terminology, or a "celestial-terrestrial-telestial" construction, which while fairly consistent within subordination, it makes absolutely no sense under equalism.


This makes a lot of sense. Since there are indeed 3 heavens that puts into perpective the different roles of the three within the respects of the kingdoms. Say within the highest heaven one can enjoy the prescence of all three. Within the middle only Christ and the holy Ghost, and within the third one can enjoy the prescence of the Holy Ghost. Since no unclean person can be in the prescence of God only the pure will be able to endure the three without suffering under the conscience of his own guilt under a perfect and holy God.
Thanks Boxy
Semira_Fallen
JosephSmith
Hey guys! This thread is looking good. I just wanted to thank you all for defending me. You good mormons are going to the highest heaven for sure! well, probably for sure. maybe. if you let me marry your wife. 3nodding

So, I'm working on a sequel to the Book of Mormon. it's going to be great! I've been using the old hat and peepstone method again. best way to go! I am translating it from this roll of toilet paper I found. God told me that it had reformed reformed reformed egyptian on it and it needs to be translated for the restoration of the one true church in these latter days. It tells the history of the people who lived under the sea in amazing atlantis-type civilizations. they were able to breath underwater with the power of the priesthood and worshiped god mightily until it came to pass that they were cursed with the mark of Cain and many wars and contentions began. Look for it in bookstores soon! It might be a while though...it is 1000 sheet toilet paper after all!

Any ladies in here interested in becoming my next plural wife? I'm taking applications. but please, no fat chicks.


>_< Yeah, that joke is in extremely bad taste. Polygamy stopped being sanctioned by the Church in the 1890's.


WHAT? YOU HAVE STOPPED PRACTICING THAT ONE THING THAT IS THE KEYSTONE OF YOUR PATH TO HEAVEN? AND YOU CALL YOURSELVES MORMON?

JOE, I THINK YOU AND I SHOULD GET TOGETHER AND TEACH THESE UPSTARTS A FEW THINGS ABOUT FOLLOWING A GODDAMN PROPHET!

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