FAQs About Mormonism - Discussion

[Speck-Cipher]

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Pleas state where in D&C.

[Boxy]

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Quote:

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; (D&C 27:10-11)

(dates August 1830)

Quote:

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. (D&C 107:53-54)

(dated March 28, 1835)

Quote:

And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! (D&C 128:21)

(dated September 6, 1842)

Those are the only direct references which include both Adam and Michael in the current edition of Doctrine & Covenants. Linguistically, however, "Adam" meaning "man" and Michael meaning "like God" or "made in the image of God" seem to make sense as a complete title.

Also, the renaming of various prophets and patriarchs in various times could possibly indicate a complete title:

Jesus Christ = "God will help" "anointed" = God will help the anointed

Jacob Israel = "held by the heel", "prince of God" = a prince held by the heel, mortal subservience to God Almighty, etc.

Abram Abraham = "exalted father" "father of a multitude" = exalted father of a multitude, patriarch, etc.

Simon Peter = "he who hears" "rock" = he who hears the rock, he who listens to revelation (see Matthew 16:17-18 )

Adam Michael = "earth, created by God" "who is like God" = he who is created by God in the image of God

Noah Gabriel = "comfort, wanderer" "God is my strength" = though I may wander, God is my strength

It makes sense, at least to everyone's favorite teh Boxy 3nodding

[Speck-Cipher]

block-head

Darkslider

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good point I said defending for lack of a better term though sorry for that little bit of confusion. But one of the points you make about it was made by god so it's perfect and cannot decay I don't believe to be correct. Since everything is created by god and everything does decay. Also light was made before the sun which is very interesting since it does not explain where the light is from, just that it is there. So this would be very interesting if you think about it, what if light decayed and died before the sun?

Quit ******** me. It hurts.

lol sorry I just find this kind of thing very interesting... probably because I can't get an answer for it and want one xd

What is written is not always what is nor is what was planed happens, but your statment is correct. It is eazy for us to make light but nun of us here that I know of has ever made a sun. Light can also come from decay, or radiation, but the light will not die before the sun but the sun may chose to refuse its light.

[Boxy]

On the issue of light:

John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

Genesis 1:1-5 "IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Genesis 1:14-19 "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day."

Theologically, light comes before the sun. One should not literalize a metaphor for the sake of argument. It's both bad science and bad religion gonk

On a scientific note, matter is neither created or destroyed, produced or corrupted. It merely changes state. Nothing "rots" but is simply redistributed. Entropy is a completely different concept altogether.

Dictionary.com

entropy:
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

[Speck-Cipher]

block-head

Darkslider

block-head

Well seeing as you like this topic and I would like to know about it, can you help me with the question of how can the Holt ghost be used as evidence of the truth?

Certainly. But it will have to be tomorrow.

yeah I saw that this is really good for me, I find apologetics very interesting and I love to learn things.

The holy ghost can be a personal witness, and on occasion he may alter your Physiology. Besides that, he can witness to others as well, if they are ready to receive him. If they are not ready to receve him then he will not be. "blessed are the humble...' 'blessed are the pece makers...' 'blessed are the meek' 'for they shall inherit the earth."

[Darkslider]

Boxy

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Quote:

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; (D&C 27:10-11)

(dates August 1830)

Quote:

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. (D&C 107:53-54)

(dated March 28, 1835)

Quote:

And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! (D&C 128:21)

(dated September 6, 1842)

Those are the only direct references which include both Adam and Michael in the current edition of Doctrine & Covenants. Linguistically, however, "Adam" meaning "man" and Michael meaning "like God" or "made in the image of God" seem to make sense as a complete title.

Also, the renaming of various prophets and patriarchs in various times could possibly indicate a complete title:

Jesus Christ = "God will help" "anointed" = God will help the anointed

Jacob Israel = "held by the heel", "prince of God" = a prince held by the heel, mortal subservience to God Almighty, etc.

Abram Abraham = "exalted father" "father of a multitude" = exalted father of a multitude, patriarch, etc.

Simon Peter = "he who hears" "rock" = he who hears the rock, he who listens to revelation (see Matthew 16:17-18 )

Adam Michael = "earth, created by God" "who is like God" = he who is created by God in the image of God

Noah Gabriel = "comfort, wanderer" "God is my strength" = though I may wander, God is my strength

It makes sense, at least to everyone's favorite teh Boxy 3nodding

But, that throws another problem into the mix. If Michael became Adam, and Adam returned to being Michael the Archangel. . . exlpain to me how Joseph Smith saw Adam and Michael standing side by side.

"The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God,...I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin..." (Joseph Smith's Diary, January 21, 1836, p. 136; original in LDS historical department).

[Eteponge]

Speck-Cipher

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Pleas state where in D&C.

I do not know. I've seen it quoted before though. If I come across it I'll make sure to post the verse number.

EDIT: Nevermind. Didn't bother to read the postings after your message before I responded.

[Darkslider]

Speck-Cipher

block-head

Darkslider

block-head

Well seeing as you like this topic and I would like to know about it, can you help me with the question of how can the Holt ghost be used as evidence of the truth?

Certainly. But it will have to be tomorrow.

yeah I saw that this is really good for me, I find apologetics very interesting and I love to learn things.

The holy ghost can be a personal witness, and on occasion he may alter your Physiology. Besides that, he can witness to others as well, if they are ready to receive him. If they are not ready to receve him then he will not be. "blessed are the humble...' 'blessed are the pece makers...' 'blessed are the meek' 'for they shall inherit the earth."

Quit spouting rubbish.

The Holy Ghost cannot be used as evidence of truth for the simple fact is that people around the world from all different religious beliefs (even Satanists) have the same feelings confirming the truth of their beliefs to them. That so many people from so many different religions (many of which are directly contradicting to Mormonism) feel the "Holy Ghost" means that you cannot take those feelings and use them as evidence of truth, nor proof of anything.

As for the physiological changes. . . it is all in the eye of the person who is making the claim. For example, the mormon missionaries came over last night and reiterated to me that since the night I answered the door drunk, they could see a "glow" about me, that my countenence was shinging. How the ******** they figured this out is beyond me. They say it is because of the "change of spirit" that I had. Funny thing is, I haven't had a change os spirit. I flat out lied to them about receiving answers to my prayers. I don't pray. . . I don't believe in God. But, since I told them I had. . . in their mind they have placed that change on me. It isn't really there, otherwise other people would see it as well. My fiance tells the missionaries that she sees it, but afterwards she compliments me on being such a good actor.

End conclusion: The Holy Ghost and the feelings that Mormons claim he gives cannot under any circumstances be taken as evidence of truth or proof of anything.

[Speck-Cipher]

Darkslider

Boxy

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Quote:

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; (D&C 27:10-11)

(dates August 1830)

Quote:

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. (D&C 107:53-54)

(dated March 28, 1835)

Quote:

And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! (D&C 128:21)

(dated September 6, 1842)

Those are the only direct references which include both Adam and Michael in the current edition of Doctrine & Covenants. Linguistically, however, "Adam" meaning "man" and Michael meaning "like God" or "made in the image of God" seem to make sense as a complete title.

Also, the renaming of various prophets and patriarchs in various times could possibly indicate a complete title:

Jesus Christ = "God will help" "anointed" = God will help the anointed

Jacob Israel = "held by the heel", "prince of God" = a prince held by the heel, mortal subservience to God Almighty, etc.

Abram Abraham = "exalted father" "father of a multitude" = exalted father of a multitude, patriarch, etc.

Simon Peter = "he who hears" "rock" = he who hears the rock, he who listens to revelation (see Matthew 16:17-18 )

Adam Michael = "earth, created by God" "who is like God" = he who is created by God in the image of God

Noah Gabriel = "comfort, wanderer" "God is my strength" = though I may wander, God is my strength

It makes sense, at least to everyone's favorite teh Boxy 3nodding

But, that throws another problem into the mix. If Michael became Adam, and Adam returned to being Michael the Archangel. . . exlpain to me how Joseph Smith saw Adam and Michael standing side by side.

"The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God,...I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin..." (Joseph Smith's Diary, January 21, 1836, p. 136; original in LDS historical department).

Yo, how many names are up there. My fathers name is Michael dose that mean he is adam? Or is it simpal logic that there are more that one person with a same name?

[Darkslider]

Speck-Cipher

Darkslider

Boxy

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Quote:

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; (D&C 27:10-11)

(dates August 1830)

Quote:

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. (D&C 107:53-54)

(dated March 28, 1835)

Quote:

And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! (D&C 128:21)

(dated September 6, 1842)

Those are the only direct references which include both Adam and Michael in the current edition of Doctrine & Covenants. Linguistically, however, "Adam" meaning "man" and Michael meaning "like God" or "made in the image of God" seem to make sense as a complete title.

Also, the renaming of various prophets and patriarchs in various times could possibly indicate a complete title:

Jesus Christ = "God will help" "anointed" = God will help the anointed

Jacob Israel = "held by the heel", "prince of God" = a prince held by the heel, mortal subservience to God Almighty, etc.

Abram Abraham = "exalted father" "father of a multitude" = exalted father of a multitude, patriarch, etc.

Simon Peter = "he who hears" "rock" = he who hears the rock, he who listens to revelation (see Matthew 16:17-18 )

Adam Michael = "earth, created by God" "who is like God" = he who is created by God in the image of God

Noah Gabriel = "comfort, wanderer" "God is my strength" = though I may wander, God is my strength

It makes sense, at least to everyone's favorite teh Boxy 3nodding

But, that throws another problem into the mix. If Michael became Adam, and Adam returned to being Michael the Archangel. . . exlpain to me how Joseph Smith saw Adam and Michael standing side by side.

"The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God,...I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin..." (Joseph Smith's Diary, January 21, 1836, p. 136; original in LDS historical department).

Yo, how many names are up there. My fathers name is Michael dose that mean he is adam? Or is it simpal logic that there are more that one person with a same name?

Yo, in the heavenly sense. . . Michael is Adam, Adam is Michael. Don't throw up s**t like "My dad is named Michael" because when he gets to heaven, it just won't be.

[Boxy]

Darkslider

But, that throws another problem into the mix. If Michael became Adam, and Adam returned to being Michael the Archangel. . . exlpain to me how Joseph Smith saw Adam and Michael standing side by side.

"The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God,...I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin..." (Joseph Smith's Diary, January 21, 1836, p. 136; original in LDS historical department).

My best explanation:

Michael only emerged as a name to describe an archangel in post-exilic Israelite writings. However, the name had been used previously in given names among early Mosaic followers (Numbers 13:13, 1 Chr. 6:40, Ezra 8: cool .

Adam on the other hand obviously referred to Adam in a mortal incarnation.

The problem, it seems, lies in what the "celestial Kingdom" in this refers to. Are all these entities within the Kingdom? Is it at the present time, or in the future, or in the past?

Given the lack of information of a complete quotation, I would assume that this particular reference is seeing many things at once: seeing the Celestial Kingdom; seeing a variety of scenes from the past, including Adam and Abraham; seeing into the hosts of heaven, including Adam exalted as Michael; seeing the present, including his family, including his brother, mother, and father.

Metaphorical writings, especially dreams and visions, seldom make sense, and taking a literal interpretation covers a "false" image over the entire experience, regardless of who's reading it.

Comparing the dates, I suppose, one could only assume that Joseph Smith understood that Michael is another name for Adam, given that this dream was recorded in 1836 and the earliest recorded date for an "Adam, or Michael" construction is in 1830.

However, that entirely depends on whether you consider D&C to be entirely accurate, which I believe is a point you've already made.

[Boxy]

Speck-Cipher

Yo, how many names are up there. My fathers name is Michael dose that mean he is adam? Or is it simpal logic that there are more that one person with a same name?

Adam was the first man and literally created in the image of God. If any deserve to be called "made in the image of God" in a physical sense, it is certainly Adam.

[Speck-Cipher]

Darkslider

Speck-Cipher

Darkslider

Boxy

Eteponge

As for Adam being Michael, that confuses me. I've read a verse in the D&C where it says, "Jesus, and Adam, and Michael", etc. Showing them seperate.

Quote:

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days; (D&C 27:10-11)

(dates August 1830)

Quote:

53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. (D&C 107:53-54)

(dated March 28, 1835)

Quote:

And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope! (D&C 128:21)

(dated September 6, 1842)

Those are the only direct references which include both Adam and Michael in the current edition of Doctrine & Covenants. Linguistically, however, "Adam" meaning "man" and Michael meaning "like God" or "made in the image of God" seem to make sense as a complete title.

Also, the renaming of various prophets and patriarchs in various times could possibly indicate a complete title:

Jesus Christ = "God will help" "anointed" = God will help the anointed

Jacob Israel = "held by the heel", "prince of God" = a prince held by the heel, mortal subservience to God Almighty, etc.

Abram Abraham = "exalted father" "father of a multitude" = exalted father of a multitude, patriarch, etc.

Simon Peter = "he who hears" "rock" = he who hears the rock, he who listens to revelation (see Matthew 16:17-18 )

Adam Michael = "earth, created by God" "who is like God" = he who is created by God in the image of God

Noah Gabriel = "comfort, wanderer" "God is my strength" = though I may wander, God is my strength

It makes sense, at least to everyone's favorite teh Boxy 3nodding

But, that throws another problem into the mix. If Michael became Adam, and Adam returned to being Michael the Archangel. . . exlpain to me how Joseph Smith saw Adam and Michael standing side by side.

"The heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the celestial Kingdom of God,...I saw father Adam, and Abraham and Michael and my father and mother, my brother Alvin..." (Joseph Smith's Diary, January 21, 1836, p. 136; original in LDS historical department).

Yo, how many names are up there. My fathers name is Michael dose that mean he is adam? Or is it simpal logic that there are more that one person with a same name?

Yo, in the heavenly sense. . . Michael is Adam, Adam is Michael. Don't throw up s**t like "My dad is named Michael" because when he gets to heaven, it just won't be.

But yours could, dose that men that you were there or some one els with the same name. My arguments simple logic. but there is the posibility that josiph counted twice but used the same name. Ink surprised

[Speck-Cipher]

Boxy

Speck-Cipher

Yo, how many names are up there. My fathers name is Michael dose that mean he is adam? Or is it simpal logic that there are more that one person with a same name?

Adam was the first man and literally created in the image of God. If any deserve to be called "made in the image of God" in a physical sense, it is certainly Adam.

ya know, I think you should learn hebrew and read there old testement, or at least read the hebrew coppy the catholics have. They have grate records.

[Boxy]

Speck-Cipher

But yours could, dose that men that you were there or some one els with the same name. My arguments simple logic. but there is the posibility that josiph counted twice but used the same name. Ink

Physically applicable "logic" has little to do with theological truth. Does it make sense that the light precedes the sun, or that a good root makes a good limb while tending olive groves? Nosiree. The entire point of Christianity is that it seems to work backwards on one level to go forwards on a higher level: "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Speck-Cipher

ya know, I think you should learn hebrew and read there old testement,

You mean the Torah? I would imagine that reading the New Testament would also be of help, considering that the early Christians were exclusively Jewish until 49 AD.

Speck-Cipher

or at least read the hebrew coppy the catholics have. They have grate records.

I'm sure they do. However, as a non-Catholic, I'd doubt that they'd let me into their archives.

Sucks to be me.