Calm, Rationalized, Debate on Religion

[Tlara]

Tommy Trojan

The Bible made no valid prophicies, just like Nostradamus, what was said is to vague to be directly applied to anything accurately.

Keep reading we are discussing the intracacies(sp) of one now.

[Natas Ferret]

Tlara

Divine inspiration

That automatically disqualifies your source. They're working on a pure assumption that the older writings were somehow not inspired by the other deities?
That's utter bullshit. Your source is merely trying to brush off the older writings, without actually investigating them.

[Tlara]

Natas Ferret

Tlara

Divine inspiration

That automatically disqualifies your source. They're working on a pure assumption that the older writings were somehow not inspired by the other deities?
That's utter bullshit. Your source is merely trying to brush off the older writings, without actually investigating them.

encyclopedia britannica

Notice how they describe "Book of Kings" from Sumeria, among others.

[Pseudo-Onkelos]

Tlara

So working on the serpent in Eden as being a Babylonish or other nations god does noy fit as they didnt exist yet.

The serpent was a common motif in ancient Near Eastern thought. For example, we do have the Babylonian tale of Gilgamesh, the serpent, and the Plant of Rejuvenation. While bathing in a pond, a serpent took away the Plant of Rejuvenation from Gilgamesh. In Egyptian myth, there is Ra, the god of the sun, and Apep, who would battle with Ra. Apep is represented as a serpent. Now, this doesn't mean that there is any plagiarism involved. Again, it was a common motif.

As for the serpent being Satan, I must point out that in rabbinical interpretation regarding chapter three, the serpent is Samael, the "chief of satans." You can find this in the Pseudo-Jonathan Targum, an Aramaic paraphrase of the Old Testament. I must also note that in Jewish theology, Satan is not perceived the same way as Christians understand. So, citing from the Book of Job proves nothing, except that there is theological bias. In the Book of Job, Satan should be translated "the Adversary." The article is present.

Now that this is out of the way, I am going to continue writing up my story.

[Natas Ferret]

Tlara

encyclopedia britannica

Notice how they describe "Book of Kings" from Sumeria, among others.

I would like to, but I do not have an account with the Encyclopedia Britannica.

[Tommy Trojan]

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

It was not Satan. The old testament gives hints that satan was still part of gods divine court of angels at the point of Jobs accusation. So he had not been sentenced yet.

The scientific view discussess that it was the god of one of the older rreligions in the area(i.e. The Sumerian god 'Enlil' or the Babylonian god 'Tiamat').

Ummm if we are talking about the garden of eden, those other gods didnt even exist yet. And Satan tricking Jehovah? hmmm atheists do stretch things abit. Where is your evidence?

8 And Jehovah went on to say to Satan: “Have you set your heart upon my servant Job, that there is no one like him in the earth, a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad?” 9 At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have not you yourself put up a hedge about him and about his house and about everything that he has all around? The work of his hands you have blessed, and his livestock itself has spread abroad in the earth. 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.” 12 Accordingly Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only against him himself do not thrust out your hand!” So Satan went out away from the person of Jehovah.

"Other Gods existing"? I thought Jehova's witness were monotheistic.

Believe it or not, there are religions older then Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and just about every other major religion today(Sumerian and Babylonian for example). Their Gods were around before the Bible was even thought up. By the way, those Gods Enlil and Tiamat were frequently portrayed as snakes(kinda like the one that genesis has).

As for 8 and 9 I apologize, I was reading from an unreliable source... But is it not still trickery for Jehova allowing Satan to administer his(Satan's) tests.

Yes Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE God. People (any human) make gods of many things. Some believe animals(various kinds) are gods. Some believe stars are gods. We even make gods of sports stars, actors(actresses), polititians, scientists, religious leaders, any figure whom you choose to fashion your life after.

The Bible has the start of life in Genesis, (no not addressing evolution/creation debate). So working on the serpent in Eden as being a Babylonish or other nations god does noy fit as they didnt exist yet.

Thats just it though, Sumeria and Babylon cultures are far older than Christianity(or it's many branches). Their "Gods" were created before Jehova was even thought of. How this relates to Genesis is that Moses(author of Genesis supposedly) used the Gods of other religions in the surrounding tribes to make them appear decietful. This is the REAL snake of the Bible.

Case in point, think of the Bible in not a literal sense. Adam and Eve are the first people and plucked from the Tree of Wisdom displays that they not only thought that they were the first people... but that they were, what we call today, hunter-gatherers. People who live off of natural untamed and uncontrolled resource(i.e. fruits growing from trees...). They were surrounded by 4 rivers, the Tigris, Euphrates, Pishon, and the Gihon. Two of these rivers exist in present day Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Kuwait. The other two are "dead" rivers underneath the present day Persian Gulf. The small enlet into the Persian Gulf has high ridges underneath it, which were mountains during the Garden of Eden. Erosion from water broke through the mountains and filled in. If you look back at the ancient tribes here, most of them were snake worshipers.

[Tommy Trojan]

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

The Bible made no valid prophicies, just like Nostradamus, what was said is to vague to be directly applied to anything accurately.

Keep reading we are discussing the intracacies(sp) of one now.

Ok, prophicies and predictions are the same. Granted that spelling is different, they mean the same thing.

[skitzufrenia]

ok so i am a chaos magician and i get ppl telling me i am going against gods will and i am evil and a satanist for one i do not worship satan nor any other type of evil and never will second i am sorta a catholic buddhist chaos magician so basically i dont care what the church says but i will respect it completely and i believe in evolution so yeah

[Tlara]

Natas Ferret

Tlara

encyclopedia britannica

Notice how they describe "Book of Kings" from Sumeria, among others.

I would like to, but I do not have an account with the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Its supposed to be available even if you arent a member...here is one point that should raise questions:

The Sumerian King List begins: “When kingship was lowered from heaven, kingship was (first) in Eridu. (In) Eridu, A-lulim (became) king and ruled 28,800 years. Alalgar ruled 36,000 years. Two kings (thus) ruled it for 64,800 years. . . . (In) Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-Anna ruled 43,200 years; En-men-gal-Anna ruled 28,800 years; the god Dumu-zi, a shepherd, ruled 36,000 years. Three kings (thus) ruled it for 108,000 years.”—Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 265

I dont know about you, but this is real hokey to me....

[Tlara]

Tommy Trojan

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

The Bible made no valid prophicies, just like Nostradamus, what was said is to vague to be directly applied to anything accurately.

Keep reading we are discussing the intracacies(sp) of one now.

Ok, prophicies and predictions are the same. Granted that spelling is different, they mean the same thing.

Prophecy
An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come.

Now, i have never read Nostradamus so I dont know the answer to this question:
Did Nostradamus claim his predictions came from God?

[Tommy Trojan]

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

Tlara

Tommy Trojan

The Bible made no valid prophicies, just like Nostradamus, what was said is to vague to be directly applied to anything accurately.

Keep reading we are discussing the intracacies(sp) of one now.

Ok, prophicies and predictions are the same. Granted that spelling is different, they mean the same thing.

Prophecy
An inspired message; a revelation of divine will and purpose or the proclamation thereof. Prophecy may be an inspired moral teaching, an expression of a divine command or judgment, or a declaration of something to come.

Now, i have never read Nostradamus so I dont know the answer to this question:
Did Nostradamus claim his predictions came from God?

I apologize, but the dictionary says they are the same.

Prediction:
n.
The act of predicting.
Something foretold or predicted; a prophecy.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Prophecy:
n.


An inspired utterance of a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will.
A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.
Such an inspired message or prediction transmitted orally or in writing.
The vocation or condition of a prophet.
A prediction.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

[Tlara]

Ok, back to the account of the snake in the Garden of Eden. If the Bible account in Genesis is indeed taken as the beginning of all life, (plants, animals, human), the belief that there were other "gods" around is false. As the Babylonians, Egyptains, Sumerians, Greek, Roman......werent even around yet. Now I know that this isnt your point. Your point is that it was WRITTEN after these others were around. While it is theorized that Sumerians were the first to master writing(i saw this in Encyclopidia Britannica) there is also proof that the Jews(hebrews, followers of YHWH) were already around, and writing. That evidence I will have to give to you upon returning home.
(John Calvin)
As for people of the area worshiping snakes, that shows what? They would still be AFTER Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden of Eden.

[jaden kendam]

Tlara

(John Calvin)
As for people of the area worshiping snakes, that shows what? They would still be AFTER Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden of Eden.

It means that snakes or serpents were not uncommon in the mythos of other religions.

It would also indicate that maybe the tale of the Garden of Eden was actually a conglomerate of other religions' ideals. Which would mean they were before Adam and Eve.

If I am wrong in that point Calvin, feel free to correct me or Tlara.

[Natas Ferret]

Tlara

The Sumerian King List begins: “When kingship was lowered from heaven, kingship was (first) in Eridu. (In) Eridu, A-lulim (became) king and ruled 28,800 years. Alalgar ruled 36,000 years. Two kings (thus) ruled it for 64,800 years. . . . (In) Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-Anna ruled 43,200 years; En-men-gal-Anna ruled 28,800 years; the god Dumu-zi, a shepherd, ruled 36,000 years. Three kings (thus) ruled it for 108,000 years.”—Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 265

I dont know about you, but this is real hokey to me....

How is that hokey? Because the translation says "years" and you're going to assume its equal to a Gregorian Calendar year?
Or hokey because it would mean that their kingdoms far predate your god's, and that just can't be true?

[Tlara]

Natas Ferret

Tlara

The Sumerian King List begins: “When kingship was lowered from heaven, kingship was (first) in Eridu. (In) Eridu, A-lulim (became) king and ruled 28,800 years. Alalgar ruled 36,000 years. Two kings (thus) ruled it for 64,800 years. . . . (In) Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-Anna ruled 43,200 years; En-men-gal-Anna ruled 28,800 years; the god Dumu-zi, a shepherd, ruled 36,000 years. Three kings (thus) ruled it for 108,000 years.”—Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 265

I dont know about you, but this is real hokey to me....

How is that hokey? Because the translation says "years" and you're going to assume its equal to a Gregorian Calendar year?
Or hokey because it would mean that their kingdoms far predate your god's, and that just can't be true?

why do i bother answering you...must be a personality flaw..yup I better work on this. HELLO? hmmm lets see kings ruled for ohhhhh lets seeeeee..108,000 years?? if thats not a stretching the truth to try to show how great their rulers are I dont know what is.