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I'm not sure if I should ask about this here but....Why does everyone believe that adding a gold-sink is going to lower the prices of items in the MP? I mean,just because the so-called "value" (Which sounds pretty subjective to me) of gold increases,why would anyone do something like,say, sell an item that used to be worth 500k for 50k? Wouldn't they just continue to sell their item at the same price,and feel that much "richer" because the gold they have is now of a higher "value"? (And if someone were to do this,take a screen shot because I have the sneaking suspicion that it'll be the Gaian-equivalent of Haley's Comet: You'll be lucky to see in your lifetime.) More importantly,how can an item and gold sink like alchemy help anyone? You can all point out that the CS items used will be re-released through other RIGs,and that components are being slowly released but let's face it: Now that alchemy is around,someone is either going to keep those components,use them,or sell them for a ridiculous price,and they will still be out of the average Gaian's reach.Like many users have said before,using game/zOMG/DC commons along with releasing special alchemy conponents long before this feature was even released would've saved quite a bit of time,and would've avoided what I can only describe as a customer-relations nightmare. The fact that the only formula that I've seen that can,and has been completed by anyone who so chooses the do so is the Pie Hard event formula isn't a good thing. Gaia should not have created what could've been a grand system that can only be used by a small percentage of the user-base.

I'd also appreciate it if the people responsible for alchemy would step up and explain their decisions.The only reason that things have gotten this bad is because no one is talking to us.And I would like to note that I appreciate everything the Gaia Staff has done for it's users during my two-years of experience here,but this is something I can't condone.I know that you,the staff, all care about us,so why aren't you trying to help us when we need you? At the moment,I don't feel that the staff is doing enough....And I hate feeling like that.....


It's a law and principle of Economics, if you consistently take more gold or "currency" out of a system then you are putting in, deflation will occur. Because of the decrease in the supply of gold, smaller amounts of gold become more valuable. So an item that use to consistently be worth 700k, is now worth 400k. It's not that the item itself has diminished, just that your gold is being valued more, it requires less to purchase more items without vast amount of shinies.


Ah,thank you for that.It's been bothering me for a while,so it's good to understand what everyone's been going on about now... sweatdrop

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cookie_pirate_sora506
My final question before I give up on this system entirely: Why wasn't this new feature Beta-Tested?

I mean it's an awesome new system, that I've said time and again would be really fun, so why didn't you want to make SURE it was perfect before hand. You have an extremely loyal, albeit not necessarily "hardcore," userbase that absolutely loves to give you feedback (hey, I'm still pissed. Give me a break). A small group of rag-tag users would probably voiced issues with the use of Cash Items, the use of Cash Items in bulk and what that might do to the MP, short term (and long term). Even if you weren't going to heed our advise, as what you seem to be doing right now, you could at least prepare for our questions and not have to wait a week before answering them.

When will you learn Gaia, you're not good a surprising us? You always show up to our doorstep with a bouquet of white roses, although we tell you time and again that we're deadly allergic and to give us lilies instead.

It's deadly obvious that you're not going to change your mind about using Cash Items, or my big pet-peeve, Cash items in bulk. You don't seem to care that even low levels of Alchemy are inaccessible to a large part of your userbase. I believe you have the terms "hard"and "unbelievably expensive" confused, but I suppose that's up for debate. The only win that can possibly conceive from this mess is that you might finally get what "Communicate what your users" means.

It means, before your roll out something HUGE. Something that could conceivably change everything and effect every user, Rich or Poor, Old or New. Before you make that announcement, ask the people it's going to effect the most first.

Thanks for your time.



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Seriously Gaia, why didn't you utilise SCAS for this? You have trustworthy beta testers ready and waiting for anything you want to gauge opinions on.

ElectricTerra's Senpai

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Tiger_Fire
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Tiger_Fire
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I have another question.

Why did the Alchemy team decide to include a fail aspect in the feature? Considering the layout and effort required for the vast majority of formulae, and current difficulty in using the feature at all, isn't it terribly unfair that a user might lose a considerable amount of gold as well?
I would request that you scrap that at least. There isn't any point to it except as a rather cruel way of sinking gold.
I don't see it as cruel as all. In fact, I think it would be highly unfair for there not to be a fail aspect. If you want something, then you should be willing to work for it. Gold is a casualty. I mean, I understand where you're coming from, and there is certainly a concern when you lose a lot of gold, but if you get an item without any risk, where's the difficulty in it? Yes, the items are difficult to gain now but, if Alchemy works out the way it is supposed to, the components should level out to more obtainable levels. Then, the gold you lose in a fail is a necessary evil and not another way to irritate.

And, Alchemy is trying to fix the inflation by sinking gold. It needs to be done. I, personally, would prefer to a random fail than something else.

(Side note: I greatly apologize if anyone thinks I'm posting too many times here. I hadn't realized it was that many; I simply want to help and offer my opinions. I'll lay off a bit.)

I think there are far more reasonable ways to use Alchemy to sink gold. The inclusion of multiples of gold shop items will do that. In fact, it would be perfectly acceptable to me to have to buy say, 50 gold shop items a 10k each as part of the formula for a high end item. I know I can do it, I know the items are obtainable. That's 500k sunk right there. I don't see the necessity for a fail element when the gold shop items are there to use in ingredients. I don't see the need to lose our gold when we can simply have the feature use it, if you see what I mean.

I know what you mean; I touched on the topic of using gold shop items for the formulas a few pages back. But what you used as an example --50 shop items @ 10k each and then you automatically get the high-end item? There's no real work to it; no balance. I can do that right now half a dozen times, sell a few times, and do it over a dozen more times. In my mind, that doesn't make it a "high-end item".

The method would sink gold but I think we both know that people would adopt the "Been there, done that" attitude fairly fast and abandon ship. New formulas will come out, they'll be done, and then abandon ship. Repeat. The developers jobs are to keep people interested on a more constant basis; let's face it, solely using the shop items aren't going to do it. It'd be too easy and then next thing you know, the market is flooded with those items and then Alchemy just becomes a waste. The formula items will essentially become gold shop items that you need to go to a different menu for.

Besides, Alchemy is a way to re-release CS items, among other things. CS items originally bought with real cash. No one is going to stand by and allow someone to get a CS item with only a little work and a bunch of gold shop items. No way. There needs to be a balance; some luck, some rarity. That includes fails, IMHO. Sacrificing gold a few (possible) failings puts everything on that much more equal ground.



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The work comes from 1: having to amass the gold to drop 500k on gold shop items in the first place and 2: having to collect the other components that come from DC, DD, ZOMG, etc. Those components aren't available in the gold shops and they're somewhat difficult to come by.

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Recite Your Sins


All I have to say about Carbon is: Don't worry about it. There is absolutely no way at this point that he hasn't gotten a real life response from his superiors, that is affecting his job. Not to mention, after that post, his reputation is kind of diminished to the public eye, cause any perspective you look at it from, he was still being rather snide and sarcastic to the point of offense. But don't let one rude Dev spoil this feature for you, now that we know changes are imminent, this feature could bring on a whole new level if implemented correctly.



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вυт ∂ση'т ℓσσк ∂σωη вє¢αυѕє, ι ∂ση'т кησω, ƒαℓℓιηg ιѕ ƒαтαℓ ƒяσм тнιѕ нєιgнт


It's just sort of like a throw your hands in the air and go "******** it" thing. Last straw, if you will. All summer the devs have just sort of proven that they don't know what it's like to be an average Gaian, and they'll be damned if they have to try and understand it. First the OM, and now this. I'm sure there's so much more, because I KNOW I've gotten into a few serious discussions about how Gaia doesn't seem to listen to user feedback all that much anymore... I don't know.

I mean, really, what in the hell made Carbon think that users would take that journal calmly? I honestly stopped reading when I found out that I wasn't a dedicated enough of a user to use the feature.

Well, on the bright side, my expectations for Alchemy are so low that they've gone through the Earths' core and into China. So, it can only go up from here (lol). I'm just really hesitant to be excited for the feature again. Because I was SO pumped when the comic was coming out and then... WOOSH death of excitement. (Though I must say, I'm so glad I got to use my angry!Shizuo gifs like I did. That was so fun being the one annoying person posting the same thing in so many threads. Hahahah, like, almost every post ended in that gif. So, thanks for that, Gaia!)

It's a personal sort of hesitance now. I'm like this in RL too, so it's not just Gaia. Even if they promise me a billion times that the whole system is going to be changed, I'm not going to believe it until it's done. Like, I don't want to be let down again, if that makes any sense at all...?
sweatdrop



ι кησω тнαт ι ѕнσυℓ∂ нανє ηєνєя нєℓ∂ уσυ υρ тнιѕ нιgн, тнιѕ нιgн
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Well, I wouldn't be surprised if he was asked to take a personal "leave" for a while, or if they ask another Dev to step in his place. He has some rather superficial ideals that I don't any gaian will take lightly. I have yet to come across the over 100 pages I have read in several other Alchemy related assistance forums, ONE person that appreciated and in fact was not INSULTED by his journal.

Comparatively, based on his rather shameful definition of a "hardcore user" there are 03's that will not be getting back wings.

I feel you, I also do not plan on using this feature till there are definite tangible changes.



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No, I'd not be surprised. I know for a fact that his journal has cost Gaia some money. I know that a lot of users said that they'd had it and canceled AC because of this whole mess. IDK though.

I mean, really. I log in every freaking day, participate in every event, and I (used) to buy GC when I could. I might not be their idea user, but I'd classify myself as "hardcore"-- AT LEAST dedicated-- since I've been here for 5 or so years. I just stopped reading and bitched him out then and there. If that's your attitude on users, why don't you take a walk out that door and try being a normal user, yeah? IDK IDK. *sigh*

I don't even know. I want to try it if it ever becomes doable. I wouldn't mind pumping gold when I have it in, and I'd love some incintive to play some of Gaia's flash games again. I mean, I have nearly 6000 tokens. Dude. Put some sort of components in Prize and Joy. DUH.




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Romantic Girl

Carbonphyber Rockz - I have no idea why you guys are so upset with HIM (mad resolved face)

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cookie_pirate_sora506
My final question before I give up on this system entirely: Why wasn't this new feature Beta-Tested?

I mean it's an awesome new system, that I've said time and again would be really fun, so why didn't you want to make SURE it was perfect before hand. You have an extremely loyal, albeit not necessarily "hardcore," userbase that absolutely loves to give you feedback (hey, I'm still pissed. Give me a break). A small group of rag-tag users would probably voiced issues with the use of Cash Items, the use of Cash Items in bulk and what that might do to the MP, short term (and long term). Even if you weren't going to heed our advise, as what you seem to be doing right now, you could at least prepare for our questions and not have to wait a week before answering them.

When will you learn Gaia, you're not good a surprising us? You always show up to our doorstep with a bouquet of white roses, although we tell you time and again that we're deadly allergic and to give us lilies instead.

It's deadly obvious that you're not going to change your mind about using Cash Items, or my big pet-peeve, Cash items in bulk. You don't seem to care that even low levels of Alchemy are inaccessible to a large part of your userbase. I believe you have the terms "hard"and "unbelievably expensive" confused, but I suppose that's up for debate. The only win that can possibly conceive from this mess is that you might finally get what "Communicate what your users" means.

It means, before your roll out something HUGE. Something that could conceivably change everything and effect every user, Rich or Poor, Old or New. Before you make that announcement, ask the people it's going to effect the most first.

Thanks for your time.



User Image

Seriously Gaia, why didn't you utilise SCAS for this? You have trustworthy beta testers ready and waiting for anything you want to gauge opinions on.




....What could SCAS even test? The entire issue with Alchemy is drop rates and rare item completion. The technical side of alchemy (the combining items and formulas on a large scale to make items) works perfectly. And SCAS only tests technical and gameplay stuff.


You can't "test" the effects on the marketplace with a group 50 users.



This isn't an issue with "testing", it's an issue with the artists in charge undervaluing the rarity of the components, and overvaluing the resulting items.

SCAS doesn't give opinions, they test loads and glitches.

ElectricTerra's Senpai

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cookie_pirate_sora506
My final question before I give up on this system entirely: Why wasn't this new feature Beta-Tested?

I mean it's an awesome new system, that I've said time and again would be really fun, so why didn't you want to make SURE it was perfect before hand. You have an extremely loyal, albeit not necessarily "hardcore," userbase that absolutely loves to give you feedback (hey, I'm still pissed. Give me a break). A small group of rag-tag users would probably voiced issues with the use of Cash Items, the use of Cash Items in bulk and what that might do to the MP, short term (and long term). Even if you weren't going to heed our advise, as what you seem to be doing right now, you could at least prepare for our questions and not have to wait a week before answering them.

When will you learn Gaia, you're not good a surprising us? You always show up to our doorstep with a bouquet of white roses, although we tell you time and again that we're deadly allergic and to give us lilies instead.

It's deadly obvious that you're not going to change your mind about using Cash Items, or my big pet-peeve, Cash items in bulk. You don't seem to care that even low levels of Alchemy are inaccessible to a large part of your userbase. I believe you have the terms "hard"and "unbelievably expensive" confused, but I suppose that's up for debate. The only win that can possibly conceive from this mess is that you might finally get what "Communicate what your users" means.

It means, before your roll out something HUGE. Something that could conceivably change everything and effect every user, Rich or Poor, Old or New. Before you make that announcement, ask the people it's going to effect the most first.

Thanks for your time.



User Image

Seriously Gaia, why didn't you utilise SCAS for this? You have trustworthy beta testers ready and waiting for anything you want to gauge opinions on.




....What could SCAS even test? The entire issue with Alchemy is drop rates and rare item completion. The technical side of alchemy (the combining items and formulas on a large scale to make items) works perfectly. And SCAS only tests technical and gameplay stuff.


You can't "test" the effects on the marketplace with a group 50 users.



This isn't an issue with "testing", it's an issue with the artists in charge undervaluing the rarity of the components, and overvaluing the resulting items.

SCAS doesn't give opinions, they test loads and glitches.



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SCAS most certainly does give opinions. We're always asked for our feedback in addition to any bugs we find in testing. We aren't there just to find glitches and gameplay snags.

Besides, even if there was no precedent for asking opinions of SCASers, who's to say they couldn't set one? How the ******** could it have been anything but GOOD to present this idea to a select group of Gaians who can provide an accurate idea as to what kind of reception this would get when released? They could have discussed this feature with us at length, presented the major recipes and asked what was good and what needed to be changed. That would have been an excellent use of such a resource.

Romantic Girl

The Undead Suitor


....What could SCAS even test? The entire issue with Alchemy is drop rates and rare item completion. The technical side of alchemy (the combining items and formulas on a large scale to make items) works perfectly. And SCAS only tests technical and gameplay stuff.


You can't "test" the effects on the marketplace with a group 50 users.



This isn't an issue with "testing", it's an issue with the artists in charge undervaluing the rarity of the components, and overvaluing the resulting items.

SCAS doesn't give opinions, they test loads and glitches.


1. Reality here, is that this is NOT the only option of use on Gaia.

2. Artists design items - once they are designed, they move on to something else to design.

3. Developers are the ones who Code the Project. Devs are higher then Artists I believe - because coding takes a high degree of education. Not that Artists don't need the Higher Education, because they do; but in the real world. a Programmer makes more money then an Artist. At least that is what I'm told.

Also, Coding can be in the 100's of thousands up to millions of lines of code and it is very hard to find one little error as small as a semi-colon not being where it should be, left out, or put where it shouldn't be to LOADS of other issues with coding. My dream and college credits were in business and to become a Programmer - but family came first and will always come first.

Just wanted to clarify.

Informer

Brillie_0
Carbonphyber Rockz - I have no idea why you guys are so upset with HIM (mad resolved face)


Because of the many things he assumed without knowing the complete details, and well, more will be explained in the pm.

Romantic Girl

Recite Your Sins
Brillie_0
Carbonphyber Rockz - I have no idea why you guys are so upset with HIM (mad resolved face)


Because of the many things he assumed without knowing the complete details, and well, more will be explained in the pm.


Okay - I understand you know something I probably don't. However, with my business background, I do not believe a job position would be jeopardized with one mistake. If that happened, everyone would be fired. He's helped Gaia in so many ways, since I can remember his name, that I just don't understand yet how his job would or could be in jeopardy - and this thread is really not the place to discuss this - but I assume it is about the Alchemy project.

I read his journal about the Alchemy Project, I read his Dev Alert before that, and I didn't see anything wrong with it.


EDIT: You and I both are glowing and I grabbed your Tank!!

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Brillie_0
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....What could SCAS even test? The entire issue with Alchemy is drop rates and rare item completion. The technical side of alchemy (the combining items and formulas on a large scale to make items) works perfectly. And SCAS only tests technical and gameplay stuff.


You can't "test" the effects on the marketplace with a group 50 users.



This isn't an issue with "testing", it's an issue with the artists in charge undervaluing the rarity of the components, and overvaluing the resulting items.

SCAS doesn't give opinions, they test loads and glitches.



1. Reality here, is that this is NOT the only option of use on Gaia.

2. Artists design items - once they are designed, they move on to something else to design.

3. Developers are the ones who Code the Project. Devs are higher then Artists I believe - because coding takes a high degree of education. Not that Artists don't need the Higher Education, because they do; but in the real world. a Programmer makes more money then an Artist. At least that is what I'm told.

Also, Coding can be in the 100's of thousands up to millions of lines of code and it is very hard to find one little error as small as a semi-colon not being where it should be, left out, or put where it shouldn't be to LOADS of other issues with coding. My dream and college credits were in business and to become a Programmer - but family came first and will always come first.

Just wanted to clarify.

Actually, I've heard a few times that the Artists were the ones mainly in charge of this project. Like, they came up with the ideas and how it would all work and presumably what components go into what items.

So, if they really did make up the crazy formulas that didn't take MP costs and supply and demand and such into account, then they're more to blame than the Devs.

Just sayin'.

Caring Vet

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Brillie_0
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Brillie_0
Carbonphyber Rockz - I have no idea why you guys are so upset with HIM (mad resolved face)


Because of the many things he assumed without knowing the complete details, and well, more will be explained in the pm.


Okay - I understand you know something I probably don't. However, with my business background, I do not believe a job position would be jeopardized with one mistake. If that happened, everyone would be fired. He's helped Gaia in so many ways, since I can remember his name, that I just don't understand yet how his job would or could be in jeopardy - and this thread is really not the place to discuss this - but I assume it is about the Alchemy project.

I read his journal about the Alchemy Project, I read his Dev Alert before that, and I didn't see anything wrong with it.


EDIT: You and I both are glowing and I grabbed your Tank!!


That's because he edited the journal and took out the parts that users found offending. Since he changed his comments to "friends only" (due to a couple of users posting angry threats), you can't see the comments that contained quotes from the original entry anymore.

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Tiger_Fire
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Tiger_Fire
Antiq
I have another question.

Why did the Alchemy team decide to include a fail aspect in the feature? Considering the layout and effort required for the vast majority of formulae, and current difficulty in using the feature at all, isn't it terribly unfair that a user might lose a considerable amount of gold as well?
I would request that you scrap that at least. There isn't any point to it except as a rather cruel way of sinking gold.
I don't see it as cruel as all. In fact, I think it would be highly unfair for there not to be a fail aspect. If you want something, then you should be willing to work for it. Gold is a casualty. I mean, I understand where you're coming from, and there is certainly a concern when you lose a lot of gold, but if you get an item without any risk, where's the difficulty in it? Yes, the items are difficult to gain now but, if Alchemy works out the way it is supposed to, the components should level out to more obtainable levels. Then, the gold you lose in a fail is a necessary evil and not another way to irritate.

And, Alchemy is trying to fix the inflation by sinking gold. It needs to be done. I, personally, would prefer to a random fail than something else.

(Side note: I greatly apologize if anyone thinks I'm posting too many times here. I hadn't realized it was that many; I simply want to help and offer my opinions. I'll lay off a bit.)

I think there are far more reasonable ways to use Alchemy to sink gold. The inclusion of multiples of gold shop items will do that. In fact, it would be perfectly acceptable to me to have to buy say, 50 gold shop items a 10k each as part of the formula for a high end item. I know I can do it, I know the items are obtainable. That's 500k sunk right there. I don't see the necessity for a fail element when the gold shop items are there to use in ingredients. I don't see the need to lose our gold when we can simply have the feature use it, if you see what I mean.

I know what you mean; I touched on the topic of using gold shop items for the formulas a few pages back. But what you used as an example --50 shop items @ 10k each and then you automatically get the high-end item? There's no real work to it; no balance. I can do that right now half a dozen times, sell a few times, and do it over a dozen more times. In my mind, that doesn't make it a "high-end item".

The method would sink gold but I think we both know that people would adopt the "Been there, done that" attitude fairly fast and abandon ship. New formulas will come out, they'll be done, and then abandon ship. Repeat. The developers jobs are to keep people interested on a more constant basis; let's face it, solely using the shop items aren't going to do it. It'd be too easy and then next thing you know, the market is flooded with those items and then Alchemy just becomes a waste. The formula items will essentially become gold shop items that you need to go to a different menu for.

Besides, Alchemy is a way to re-release CS items, among other things. CS items originally bought with real cash. No one is going to stand by and allow someone to get a CS item with only a little work and a bunch of gold shop items. No way. There needs to be a balance; some luck, some rarity. That includes fails, IMHO. Sacrificing gold a few (possible) failings puts everything on that much more equal ground.



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The work comes from 1: having to amass the gold to drop 500k on gold shop items in the first place and 2: having to collect the other components that come from DC, DD, ZOMG, etc. Those components aren't available in the gold shops and they're somewhat difficult to come by.

Bit of a misstep on my side. I didn't see the "as part of the formula for a high end item." I simply thought she meant just the 500k worth of gold shop items. Of course other components are hard to come by; isn't that the problem now?

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Brillie_0
The Undead Suitor


....What could SCAS even test? The entire issue with Alchemy is drop rates and rare item completion. The technical side of alchemy (the combining items and formulas on a large scale to make items) works perfectly. And SCAS only tests technical and gameplay stuff.


You can't "test" the effects on the marketplace with a group 50 users.



This isn't an issue with "testing", it's an issue with the artists in charge undervaluing the rarity of the components, and overvaluing the resulting items.

SCAS doesn't give opinions, they test loads and glitches.



1. Reality here, is that this is NOT the only option of use on Gaia.

2. Artists design items - once they are designed, they move on to something else to design.

3. Developers are the ones who Code the Project. Devs are higher then Artists I believe - because coding takes a high degree of education. Not that Artists don't need the Higher Education, because they do; but in the real world. a Programmer makes more money then an Artist. At least that is what I'm told.

Also, Coding can be in the 100's of thousands up to millions of lines of code and it is very hard to find one little error as small as a semi-colon not being where it should be, left out, or put where it shouldn't be to LOADS of other issues with coding. My dream and college credits were in business and to become a Programmer - but family came first and will always come first.

Just wanted to clarify.

Actually, I've heard a few times that the Artists were the ones mainly in charge of this project. Like, they came up with the ideas and how it would all work and presumably what components go into what items.

So, if they really did make up the crazy formulas that didn't take MP costs and supply and demand and such into account, then they're more to blame than the Devs.

Just sayin'.


But the developers do the coding - not the artists. If artists "came up with the idea", and decided on how to put the formulas together, then they are following instructions from someone else - going back to Developer Panagrammic's comment on Page 1 1st Post - Alchemy is a Gold Sink and that is its purpose to bring the MP inflation down - done very well I might say. I can't play it though - not right now - but maybe down the road.

This project isn't for everyone and they know that. It takes patience for those who can't afford it and the ones who can, well, they are having fun with it.

The developers will have to code the bugs / glitches and the ideas mentioned in this thread.

Romantic Girl

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Brillie_0
Recite Your Sins
Brillie_0
Carbonphyber Rockz - I have no idea why you guys are so upset with HIM (mad resolved face)


Because of the many things he assumed without knowing the complete details, and well, more will be explained in the pm.


Okay - I understand you know something I probably don't. However, with my business background, I do not believe a job position would be jeopardized with one mistake. If that happened, everyone would be fired. He's helped Gaia in so many ways, since I can remember his name, that I just don't understand yet how his job would or could be in jeopardy - and this thread is really not the place to discuss this - but I assume it is about the Alchemy project.

I read his journal about the Alchemy Project, I read his Dev Alert before that, and I didn't see anything wrong with it.


EDIT: You and I both are glowing and I grabbed your Tank!!


That's because he edited the journal and took out the parts that users found offending. Since he changed his comments to "friends only" (due to a couple of users posting angry threats), you can't see the comments that contained quotes from the original entry anymore.


Was the Site Feedback Sticky changed also - where the Dev Alerts come from?

EDITED: Can't find it in the Site Changes where the Dev Alerts Come From...
Sad Face...

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