I saw the film EXPELLED today and it was interesting ...

Select poll option that suits you most closely:

I am with Ben Stein who is a genius.	12.7%	[ 40 ]
I am with Dawkins who is brilliant!	28.3%	[ 89 ]
Darwinism is a foggy working hypothesis.	6.4%	[ 20 ]
There is no academic freedom anymore.	14.6%	[ 46 ]
I evolved from a cluster of cells that emerged from a pokey-ball.	37.9%	[ 119 ]
Total Votes:			[ 314 ]

[Siouxicide]

It sounds utterly ridiculous. I haven't seen it, but I've heard that it's not even much of an argument for creationism - it's just about the "scientists" that have been shunned for backing creationism as a science, when it ISN'T a science, and shouldn't have any place in the scientific world. So why should I care about these people?

[Emperor Fluffzorz]

RyokoOfTheClouds

logic is not science.

Neither is baseless religiously-inspired idealism and hope. Neither is a personal attack on scientists everywhere. But both seem to describe ID and Expelled quite nicely.

[Shokushu]

mrsculedhel

I can tell by the debate I am receiving that you are nt berating me. May I point out however, that when I first joined Gaia simply based on my signature, containing of St. Brigid many many people made assumptions about me and disliked me before they even found out what I think. The assumption, as you can see by Oni no Tenshi's post is that I am "blind."

Someone posted that "Logic is not science." The defintion of science has become the definition of hypothesis and falsifiable testing. Has science always meant this? We make our hypotheses from logic and then we test for empirical evidence, is this not so?

Our debate is taking two forms: 1. Does ID state that it rejects naturalistic explanations and the "god of the gaps?" and 2. Do evolutionists have metaphysical "givens?"

Thank you for your thoughtful posts and continued discussion with me.

Well, Mr Ogre-Angel is probably just being impatient but to be honest I'm too lazy to go look at what he exact;y he has said.

I'm not sure what that person meant but the statement is technically correct in the same way that mutation is not evolution- evolution is more than that (the simple definition is that it is also natural selection.)

1. The Kansas school board had to modify their definition of science away from seeking natural explanations before they tried to put ID into classrooms so I'm going to say that yes, it rejects that kind of explanation and goes for a "the god of gaps" approach.
2. Evolutionists? If there really is such a group you can practically refer to it doesn't really matter what they think. Science does not have metaphysical givens and if these so called evolutionists do then they've only started with a frame of science and gone building on it with unrelated ideas.

Theories say what happens under certain conditions and the way those conditions got there is the concern of some other theory. The expansion of knowledge begins at the present and with the most easily observed and then expands in every direction. The far future and distant past are more difficult to observe and you need to establish additional tools and methods of using them before you can even begin to look.

Think about crime scene investigation. Would it make sense to be concerned with the evolution of a circulatory system (and then the origin of DNA and the origin of organic molecules and then the origin of atoms and then the origin of energy,) before you started using blood at the scene for DNA testing? No, you only need to know that you can identify people with it and how to use the gel to do it.

If you question is instead what to believe about the way everything came to be and you were looking to science to explain it you'd need the theory that talks about the earliest set of conditions that any theory talks about and then you'd have to leave blanks for the origin of those conditions or fill them in with metaphysics. The problem with this is that once science establishes a theory that goes back another step it may take a lot of effort to fix your metaphysics to work with it.
Science is a work in progress and always will be. If you can't handle not knowing about the ultimate cause of things you're better off taking the Bible literally and putting your fingers in your ears while you close your eyes.

[tytyperry]

Can you explain more? I'm not sure I understand this.

[neverwisefool]

I love how christians just take whatever's fed to them, rather than doing any real analysis or research. if they had they'd see that the film was a total sham, and all the ideas, interviews and claims are misappropriated, manipulated and patently false.

[mrsculedhel]

frickinmuck

I love how christians just take whatever's fed to them, rather than doing any real analysis or research. if they had they'd see that the film was a total sham, and all the ideas, interviews and claims are misappropriated, manipulated and patently false.

I like your avi look, very cool, but this post is a form of trolling. I am not reporting it because I would like to borrow it as an example of what I have been mentioning before.

I am a Christian and I do not "just take whatever is fed" to me rather than doing research. I am researching this film, particularly at the moment I am analyzing the possible motive of Ben Stein in making this film.

Here is the problem as I see it: People in general have a limit to what they can pursue regarding knowledge. They prioritize their interests based on the perception of need to know and what excits their minds. We are an entertainment based culture at present. People work long hours and are busy spending their paychecks on entertainment. After highschool and college unfortunately there are numberless persons who simply stop reading.

Run an random survery of people who are not among your friends. It makes a good ice breaker when getting acquainted ... ask "what are you reading?" Find out how much people read and what they are reading. It is appalling. No offense, to the friends of Gaia whose parents and partners don't read.

I don't mean that they cease to be able to read, they simply do not read anything more difficult than the newspaper. They are not keeping up with much more than the best sellers list, and even this fewer and fewer people are reading for lack of time and interest.

Therefore, people are specializing. Evangelicals who have accepted the belief in the divine are going to read the books of other evangelicals, when they have the time. Ben Stein's movie is packaged in a way that evangelicals may wish to see it, this is true.

How many Americans are evangelicals? How important is it to engage evangelicals in a discussion of evolution? Why are there so many people who are confused about evolution? (As evidenced by the poll) Gaians are some of the most brilliant people in the world and even Gaians are having some confusion.

In conclusion, let us not blame short attention spans on Christians alone. We all do this.

[mrsculedhel]

Emperor Fluffzorz

RyokoOfTheClouds

logic is not science.

Neither is baseless religiously-inspired idealism and hope. Neither is a personal attack on scientists everywhere. But both seem to describe ID and Expelled quite nicely.

Give me more baseless idealism and hope together with senseless and random acts of beauty and kindness. blaugh Isn't "personal" attacks on "scientists everywhere" a hyperbole or a kind of oxymoron? How can it be personal and general at the same time?

[Redem]

Mwahahha

[monte_cristo_lover]

Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized. It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking. By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There. That's my two cents. mrgreen

[Redem]

monte cristo1

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized.

Untrue.

monte cristo1

It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking.

People can believe whatever they wish. They just can't pretend it's science.

monte cristo1

I
By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There is only one scientific explanation for life on earth. That's the one science teachers are allowed to teach.

There are many other beliefs, but teachers are not permitted to teach their religious beliefs to children.

[GreenAnt]

monte cristo1

Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized. It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking. By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There. That's my two cents. mrgreen

Should a science teacher be allowed to teach that the Earth is flat, in class, presented as a viable alternative to a spherical Earth? Afterall there are plenty of people who believe the Earth is flat. Why shouldn't every crackpot non-scientific idea be presented as scientific truth - provided that a certain percentage of people believe it to be so? Science class is for instruction in science, not for religious indoctrination - that's what Sunday school is for.

[Lord Setar]

monte cristo1

Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized. It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking. By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There. That's my two cents. mrgreen

Repeat after me:

Intelligent design is not science. It does not belong in science class. If equal time is needed for ID as an "alternative" then time should also be given to, and I quote:

Quote:

# creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu. (from Leipzig, n.d.)

# other ideas for the origin of life and the universe, such as

* solipsism
* Last Thursdayism, the unfalsifiable view that the universe and everything in it was created last Thursday with only the appearance of earlier history
* multiple designers (Hoppe 2004)
* Raelianism or other extraterrestrial involvement
* creation by time travellers.

A science teacher's job is to teach science, which ID is not. I hereafter swear to obey by this contract and if I do not, I will without objection allow myself to be called a moronic idiot who has no conception of what science is.

[Lord Setar]

GreenAnt

monte cristo1

Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized. It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking. By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There. That's my two cents. mrgreen

Should a science teacher be allowed to teach that the Earth is flat, in class, presented as a viable alternative to a spherical Earth? Afterall there are plenty of people who believe the Earth is flat. Why shouldn't every crackpot non-scientific idea be presented as scientific truth - provided that a certain percentage of people believe it to be so? Science class is for instruction in science, not for religious indoctrination - that's what Sunday school is for.

All right class, that's it for our knowledge of the brain. Next class we're starting on phrenology, so study those bumps on your head.

[Emperor Fluffzorz]

Lord Setar

monte cristo1

Well, I'm going to put my two cents in:

I think there is no academic freedom anymore. No one is even allowed to MENTION intelligent design or you're absolutely ostracized. It's ridiculous. Why can't people just allow another option, another way of thinking. By not letting science teachers bring up any other suggestions on the origins of life, we are indoctrinating children, not teaching them. The true job of teachers is to teach children how to think and how to learn; it's not just teaching them information!

There. That's my two cents. mrgreen

Repeat after me:

Intelligent design is not science. It does not belong in science class. If equal time is needed for ID as an "alternative" then time should also be given to, and I quote:

Quote:

# creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu. (from Leipzig, n.d.)

# other ideas for the origin of life and the universe, such as

* solipsism
* Last Thursdayism, the unfalsifiable view that the universe and everything in it was created last Thursday with only the appearance of earlier history
* multiple designers (Hoppe 2004)
* Raelianism or other extraterrestrial involvement
* creation by time travellers.

A science teacher's job is to teach science, which ID is not. I hereafter swear to obey by this contract and if I do not, I will without objection allow myself to be called a moronic idiot who has no conception of what science is.

OH LAWD, IS DAT SOME LOGIC?!

Thank you, Setar. Bloody kindly. God. Maybe now they'll just shut up and die peacefully...

*sigh* I can dream...