Birth and Pregnacy as a Punishment

[ComfortablyMad]

Beatrix the catgirl

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

I don't believe a fetus to be innocent, since a fetus is not capable of being anything.

Have any of you seen an abortion? During abortion the developing child will actually MOVE away from the abortion instuments. The child's heart rate will elevate. The child KNOWS what's happening. No it does not know what it means, but it knows it's in danger as it moves away from what's trying to harm it. How does that say "I'm not anything, I don't know I'm being harmed."

[Half Baked SF]

Togechu64

I think that your taking the wrong look at this. WHen you have sex, you are taking the chance/descion to have a child.

Wrong. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy any more than consent to get in a car is consent to get hurt in a crash and not recieve medical attention. Besides, pregnancy (like sex) requires ongoing consent.

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Giving life to something is a joy and is wonderful.

Not to everyone. For example, I have sworn off reproduction until this world is no longer in its ******** or I die, whichever comes first.

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Regardless of whether the child is going to ruin the mothers life or not, all mothers feel a special love and kinship for the baby.

This one doesn't.

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If a mother absolutely hates the child and thinks of it as a curse, then she shouldnt even be allowed to bear children should she?

Yet you're working to ban abortion. That doesn't contradict in any way.

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And who gives any human being the right to take away the life of someone that they are giving birth too because of a stupid mistake that the parents themselves made? Do you have the right to go out and shoot someone with a gun?

Worst analogy I have ever seen. Unlike an unwanted pregnancy, the person you would be shooting is not violating your bodily integrity (to be specific, your right to decide who uses your body and when, and your right to remove yourself from anyone who does not respect that. If this is not possible without the death of the other this right still stands.)

[Sanguinello]

Togechu64

I think that your taking the wrong look at this. WHen you have sex, you are taking the chance/descion to have a child. Giving life to something is a joy and is wonderful. Regardless of whether the child is going to ruin the mothers life or not, all mothers feel a special love and kinship for the baby. If a mother absolutely hates the child and thinks of it as a curse, then she shouldnt even be allowed to bear children should she? And who gives any human being the right to take away the life of someone that they are giving birth too because of a stupid mistake that the parents themselves made? Do you have the right to go out and shoot someone with a gun?

i'm afraid that isn't true. most mothers will feel that yes, but not all of them. even if the child was a planned, wanted baby there's a chance that the mother will not bond with the child.

[Beatrix the catgirl]

ComfortablyMad

Beatrix the catgirl

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

I don't believe a fetus to be innocent, since a fetus is not capable of being anything.

Have any of you seen an abortion? During abortion the developing child will actually MOVE away from the abortion instuments. The child's heart rate will elevate. The child KNOWS what's happening. No it does not know what it means, but it knows it's in danger as it moves away from what's trying to harm it. How does that say "I'm not anything, I don't know I'm being harmed."

I've seen them. I've seen ACTUAL ones, and not ones that are fasified like what you are describing. A fetus when abortion is legal and elective is not capable of moving away from the suction tube, because it's neither concious nor aware of its surroundings.

[Half Baked SF]

ComfortablyMad

Beatrix the catgirl

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

I don't believe a fetus to be innocent, since a fetus is not capable of being anything.

Have any of you seen an abortion? During abortion the developing child will actually MOVE away from the abortion instuments. The child's heart rate will elevate. The child KNOWS what's happening. No it does not know what it means, but it knows it's in danger as it moves away from what's trying to harm it. How does that say "I'm not anything, I don't know I'm being harmed."

I have a bowl of soup in front of me. When I move my spoon around in the bowl, some of the noodles in the soup move away from it. Conclusion: OMG noodles can think! How can I eat such innocent creatures!

Fetal movement is either done by instinct or the same prinicple described above. Neither demonstrate conscious action nor do they suddenly give a fetus the right to violate bodily integrity.

[Half Baked SF]

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

Nothing conscious, but that doesn't grant it special rights. If it is impossible to preserve your BI without causing teh death of the dependent party, your right still stands. It's the sad truth.

[foxene]

It's not so much looking at it as punishment, but having a child is a life lesson that the individual just so happened to have learned. Boy parts+ Girl parts x semen = Baby Not a punishment, but simple life math

[Centaurion]

Toga! Toga!

ComfortablyMad

Beatrix the catgirl

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

I don't believe a fetus to be innocent, since a fetus is not capable of being anything.

Have any of you seen an abortion? During abortion the developing child will actually MOVE away from the abortion instuments. The child's heart rate will elevate. The child KNOWS what's happening. No it does not know what it means, but it knows it's in danger as it moves away from what's trying to harm it. How does that say "I'm not anything, I don't know I'm being harmed."

I have a bowl of soup in front of me. When I move my spoon around in the bowl, some of the noodles in the soup move away from it. Conclusion: OMG noodles can think! How can I eat such innocent creatures!

Fetal movement is either done by instinct or the same prinicple described above. Neither demonstrate conscious action nor do they suddenly give a fetus the right to violate bodily integrity.

right. i think the person who said that fetuses shy away, was not talking about a fetus......often has the term been mentioned but perhaps it doesn't comprehend yet. ...................A fetus cannot think.............that is what makes abortion somewhat more moral....

[Mewpasaurus]

Riyo24

ComfortablyMad

I agree that KEEPING the child as a "punishment" isn't right. But I don't believe in abortion. If a woman becomes pregnant and does not want the child, at least give it a chance to live. Living in an orphanage isn't always as bad as not living at all. The baby did not ask to be made, at least give it a chance at life and give birth to it. NO matter the race.

But I do agree that using the child as a punishment is wrong. But I'd never agree with aborting the pregnany. No need in punishing the child inside.

the only fair way to settle that aspect is to ask the child him/herself, no? and we can hardly do that can we? you can guarantee neither that the baby will be happy about the chance to live, and nor that he/she will hate it....and because of that, it all relies on chance.

You may not have asked me when I was born, but I can say both as a pro-choice woman and as someone who was adopted shortly after their birth, that even when I have my bad days, I'm still happy that my biological mother didn't decide to abort me.

My stance, even though I was adopted and spared death, comes from the fact that I was born a woman and I don't believe I should have my life (or the life of things that grow within me) decided by the likes of the rest of humanity. You may judge me for that and call me what you wish, but that doesn't change the fact that anything that grows within my body (until it leaves my body) is mine by nature.

What about cases where the woman has been raped and conceives a child? Is she a slut for that? Should she suffer the degradation and humiliation that comes from knowing she was taken advantage of and give birth to a child she will resent? I don't think she should.

And what about cases where the woman's life is at stake? Should she lose her life to bring another into the world? I don't think she should. It's unfair of you (or anyone) to ask a woman to sacrifice her life for the life of another just like it would be unfair of me to ask you to sacrifice your life for the life of some random stranger... or 5 strangers... or 10,000 strangers. Most of you wouldn't even care because you don't personally know the 5 or 10,000 people I'm asking you to sacrifice your life for. So to ask a woman to do the same for a child she may or may not want is equally as asinine and ludicrous.

[Half Baked SF]

foxene

It's not so much looking at it as punishment, but having a child is a life lesson that the individual just so happened to have learned. Boy parts+ Girl parts x semen = Baby Not a punishment, but simple life math

My son was skating on my coffee table yesterday. He fell and broke his leg. I told him that I would not help him by taking him to the hospital, that this should be considered a life lesson to never make such a mistake again. It's simple math, really: child's bone + short fall + hard surface = broken bone.

Now, if I actually had a son and did this to him, am I not punishing him? It's the same concept.

Kakra, you may want to out something in your OP similar to this, to discourage more "OMG I'm not punishing you, this is your lesson!" posts.

[fubenkunai]

Riyo24

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

what did the child do to deserve a life of poverty and orphanage-dwelling? it seems that all pro-lifers can think about is their own guilt. but i ask you, how do you know that the child will be happy with your gift of life? how many pro-lifers are willing to take these children into their own homes?

Bingo. Caring stops at birth for a lot of pro-lifers, who would rather consign a child to a life of abuse and neglect, or an overburdened and often-dangerous social services system. That does not scream "ethical" to me.

I don't want to be pregnant. It's expensive, it's still a health risk, and it ends in something I do not want. I would be the most terrible parent in the world, because I've got a short fuse and a temper that can scare adults on the rare occasion they get a glimpse of it. I can't afford the proper care to make sure I produced a pretty, adoptable baby either, because that cash goes to rent, food, books and utilities. The wisest, most ethical decision for me is to a) do my damnedest not to get pregnant by employing many kinds of birth control, and b) in the astronomically unlikely situation I do concieve, abort the fetus. I know that were the thing to survive to babyhood, it would have a living nightmare of an existence with me...until CPS intervened, which I'd give about three months. What did I do to deserve a 9-month medical condition and expenses? What did I do to deserve being saddled with an expensive, time-consuming, life-wrecking infant when I took precautions to avoid it? Don't bring up the whole, "You shouldnt hav been the wh0re," please. You know nothing of my love life and I'd love to keep it that way.

What really bothers me about the punishment/outlaw abortion camp is that their entire argument is based on the notion that they are better than anyone else. As in, their judgement, by virtue of being their, is superior to mine or my roommate's or the guy down the hall's. I don't understand why their conscience is better than mine, and why the current state of things-- which allows them to follow their ethics and me to follow mine-- is so wildly unacceptable. Seriously, what makes your opinion more correct or "better" than mine? Far as I know, we are all humans and therefore fallible creatures, which looks like an equal footing to me.

[Centaurion]

foxene

It's not so much looking at it as punishment, but having a child is a life lesson that the individual just so happened to have learned. Boy parts+ Girl parts x semen = Baby Not a punishment, but simple life math

....not really. semen+egg+condition for the two to combine and grow+ exit point for the development= baby. what if a baby were produced not in a woman's body but in a machine simulated to create what appears to be a female body? would it still be life? or a pack of flesh and blood and organs?

[Talon-chan]

Beatrix the catgirl

ComfortablyMad

How can you people believe in ending a life so innocent? What did the child do to deserve to be killed?

I don't believe a fetus to be innocent, since a fetus is not capable of being anything.

Amen.

A fetus is no more able to be innocent than a rock is able to be innocent. Because a fetus lacks conscience, and an acute awareness of right and wrong the fetus is not a moral agent. Without an understanding of good/evil/right/wrong one is unable to be innocent or guilty because one doesn't understand what they're doing. Cats and Dogs, trees and rocks... these are things that can not be innocent or guilty. Fetuses fall into that catagory. Without intent, the fetus can't be innocent.

[foxene]

Toga! Toga!

foxene

It's not so much looking at it as punishment, but having a child is a life lesson that the individual just so happened to have learned. Boy parts+ Girl parts x semen = Baby Not a punishment, but simple life math

My son was skating on my coffee table yesterday. He fell and broke his leg. I told him that I would not help him by taking him to the hospital, that this should be considered a life lesson to never make such a mistake again. It's simple math, really: child's bone + short fall + hard surface = broken bone.

Now, if I actually had a son and did this to him, am I not punishing him? It's the same concept.

Having sex and falling is different, and I did not say "Do not help" I am just stating its a lesson

[ComfortablyMad]

It's a life. It's a life that can't fight back. It IS a human, it IS someone. And just killing it is such a waste. When a woman has sex (willingly) she is taking a chance on getting pregnant. If she chooses to have sex, she should be willing to possibly carry this child full term and if then she does not want this child, adopt it out. The only time I believe in abortion is if the pregnany is endangering the womans life. May this be physicaly or psychologically. As then carrying the baby would be detrimental to the mother. And if the woman was raped. Then and only then could I understand why carrying the baby to full term and adopt it out would be too much to deal with.

That fetus is a life. It's a person.