Abusive Fathers Win Custody Battles More Often Than Mothers

[Mister George Kapland]

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

[xZaebos]

Mister George Kapland

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

I was always to see kills in sleep to have at least some portion of the motive as cold blooded revenge, so I might or might not convict if I had a choice.

[Dreaded Jai]

Mister George Kapland

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

There was a show on Oxygen? I think that was the name of the network, called "Snapped" if I remember correctly a few of them got convicted. Don't take my word for it though. I could be wrong. And not everyone can kill/hurt their loved one no matter what they've done to them. It's ******** up but it happens. It can't always end like X.

[Mister George Kapland]

xZaebos

Mister George Kapland

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

I was always to see kills in sleep to have at least some portion of the motive as cold blooded revenge, so I might or might not convict if I had a choice.

Somebody kicks me and my kids around, and they'll be lucky if I give them the chance to go to sleep.

[xZaebos]

Mister George Kapland

xZaebos

Mister George Kapland

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

I was always to see kills in sleep to have at least some portion of the motive as cold blooded revenge, so I might or might not convict if I had a choice.

Somebody kicks me and my kids around, and they'll be lucky if I give them the chance to go to sleep.

Hey man, do what you gotta do, I won't judge you. If someone is out for revenge, I'll convict, otherwise, eh.

[Mister George Kapland]

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

If somebodies abusing you, they go to sleep eventually. Somewhere in the house, there's a blunt instrument.

Sleeping + Damage = Sandman kill.

There's not a jury in the world that'd convict.

There was a show on Oxygen? I think that was the name of the network, called "Snapped" if I remember correctly a few of them got convicted. Don't take my word for it though. I could be wrong. And not everyone can kill/hurt their loved one no matter what they've done to them. It's ******** up but it happens. It can't always end like X.

I used to watched Snapped. Good show. Stupid network.

If you ask me, it really should end up in such a way in that the abuser see's the error of his ways, preferably via tire-iron.

[Mister George Kapland]

Death by Napalm

Omorose Panya

Speaking of Macai, I am kind of wondering what sources he considers legitimate, even for the sake of trolling. They can't come from lawyers, activists with credentials, court rooms, etc. What should she cite?

I'd accept statistics from any reliable statistics-gathering sources. However, political activists have an interest in fudging numbers, so you need to come up with a source other than that. Let me put this into perspective for you. If the Ku Klux Klan said that $100 billion is spent each year on pro-black and black exclusive programs, and I cited their website, would you take me seriously, even if the name of the author of the article had "PhD" after his name, or would you expect me to come up with a source that isn't blatantly anti-black?

The crux of that comes from his research methods, coupled with the definition of 'pro-black'

[Meroko_Love]

deadguy

Meroko_Love

deadguy

Meroko_Love

deadguy

How come abusive fathers get kids exactly as often as non-abusive ones? Like, down to the percent? Something seems off with that. You'd think they'd get them more, with all the advantages you say they have. Or less, with all the abuse and everything. But exactly the same?

I don't understand what you're talking about. Where are you getting this from?

I never said they have advantages, just that abusers are many times able to manipulate the court system in their favor just to get control of the kids.

In your opening post. You said fathers who went to court got the kids 70% of the time as a whole, and then that abusive fathers also got the kids exactly 70% of the time. I'm wondering why the two percentages are exactly the same.

That was my mistake; I meant that abusive fathers are able to convince authorities that the victim is unfit or undeserving of sole custody in approximately 70% of challenged cases

That wasn't the question. According to you, abusive fathers get sole or partial custody of a child in 70% of challenged cases, and fathers as a whole get sole or partial custody of a child in 70% of challenged cases. How come the numbers are so similar? I'd like to see the studies that found these two numbers.

No, I only said about abusive fathers who battle for child custody, I did not mean fathers as a whole. If you saw me say that, it's because I made a typo then.

[Meroko_Love]

Mister George Kapland

Meroko_Love

Yeah, and it's especially very common in my state. There are unfortunately many sexist judges and there are virtually no female judges... But yeah, abusive fathers in my state are awarded custody far too often.

One abusive father getting custody is too often. It's a shame there's not more female judges, although I've met a couple, my sociology teacher was a female judge in Custody Court or whatever it's called. She was a rather eye opening lady. Even if she was a goof.

Quote:

Another reason is that many traditional women do not work, or work a 9-5 job and are not able to financially support themselves. Men already make more than women, and when they are stuck in an abusive relationship, the abuser controls all the finances, even hers. So many times when the custody case happens, the victim is on the stand by herself, while the abusive husband can afford a good lawyer, so they win custody. Many of these battered women are homeless because they escape the relationship too, and homelessness looks pretty bad for a parent. :/

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

Yeah... Unfortunately, abusers are extremely controlling and will come after the woman many times. Leaving an abuser, is easier said than done. It doesn't help that courts still award joint custody to an abusive father, because it forces the woman to come in contact with her batterer, and most likely he'll take that opportunity to assault her.

Statistically, a woman is safer on the streets than in her own home. Women are killed by intimate partners more often than by another acquaintance or stranger.
And then men...
Outside the domestic realm, males are killed much more often than females; they
are killed most often in fights with other men.

Certainly doesn't help when: Almost 1/3 of female homicide victims that are reported in police records are killed by an intimate partner. Campbell, et al. (2003). “Assessing Risk Factors for Intimate Partner Homicide Intimate Partner Homicide, NIJ Journal, 250, 14-19

Nor when: In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/extent.htm

And even: 1 in every 4 women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. 85% of domestic violence victims are women. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/crime/intimate-partner-violence/measuring.htm

[Meroko_Love]

Death by Napalm

Omorose Panya

Speaking of Macai, I am kind of wondering what sources he considers legitimate, even for the sake of trolling. They can't come from lawyers, activists with credentials, court rooms, etc. What should she cite?

I'd accept statistics from any reliable statistics-gathering sources. However, political activists have an interest in fudging numbers, so you need to come up with a source other than that. Let me put this into perspective for you. If the Ku Klux Klan said that $100 billion is spent each year on pro-black and black exclusive programs, and I cited their website, would you take me seriously, even if the name of the author of the article had "PhD" after his name, or would you expect me to come up with a source that isn't blatantly anti-black?

Find me a study that comes from a neutral source (one that isn't partial to a particular outcome), that also lists its methods, and can be scrutinized for legitimacy.

In fact, Meroko love did exactly the same thing I did in her opening post, except more extreme. She
said that claims by fathers' rights groups are "absurd", with nothing to support this claim but citations from active feminists and women's rights groups.

No, actually I didn't. I almost never cite feminist and women's rights groups as research.

[Meroko_Love]

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

You're starting to sound like a feminist! surprised biggrin

[Meroko_Love]

Omorose Panya

Well I have now read through everything in this thread and I have to say that, without having read a single source (yeah, awesome insight), I'm more convinced by the skeptics. Pibe, Riviera, and to a lesser extent, 64 bits, appear to be analyzing the links quite well. I will eventually get around to reading some of the sources. I need some tea. xp

Speaking of Macai, I am kind of wondering what sources he considers legitimate, even for the sake of trolling. They can't come from lawyers, activists with credentials, court rooms, etc. What should she cite?

As for what Olya and Rivieria (and Pibe?) pointed out about the sources lumping alleged and convicted abusers together, I figured that's what they would do. Like I said though, I will get around to reading them.

Meroko, you were talking about how the mothers look and the fact that they are on antidepressants and anianxiety meds. Have those been demonstrated to significantly affect parenting ability? If not then I understand your concern. Also, when you say that the women look a mess while in court, what do you mean? What are some examples? Do you mean that her face is bruised or something like that or that it looks like she pretty much didn't take care of herself that day? Or both? I'm just trying to understand both sides.

Please bump my thread if my tank is glowing! Direct tank link. Thanks!

Being on antidepressants or antianxiety medication DOES NOT at ALL affect your ability to be a parent, it's just the harmful stereotype of "omg, she/he must be crazy! They're on meds!" They affect a person no more than insulin for a diabetic would.

The women are a lot of times homeless, so they look dirty. Their hair is messed up, they are emaciated, they aren't wearing nice clothes, make-up is running, etc. And yeah, a lot of times she will have a black eye or swollen face or something.

[Meroko_Love]

Olya

Meroko_Love

Olya

Meroko_Love

Olya

Quoted for how true the bold is. I've seen many unfit parents of both genders attempt to win custody battles just to get alimony and they didn't give a crap about the children. Abuse is not sole property of men.

Yeah, no one's saying it is. It's just far more common for men in our society, obviously. And it's extremely harmful to claim that women physically abuse just as often as men, which is completely false anyway. Because domestic violence stems from men's expected gender roles in society; it's about dominance, control, manipulation, which tend to be traits emphasized as masculine. Just like rape. It's not that men are "naturally" this way; not at all. This is the result of a patriarchal society.
Cultures that are egalitarian, have almost equal amounts of abuse (but far less than many Western cultures) from each sex.

See, I have an issue with that. Our legal system is much kinder to females when it comes to things like abuse and sex offences. Female sex offenders get more lenient sentences. Mothers who kill their children get off easier than fathers.

Culturally, women also have different ways of abusing their family members. A female is less likely to resort to physical violence. Instead, she will be verbally abusive and neglecting.

Moreover, I have a problem with the statement that more abusive fathers seek custody than mothers simply because your definition of "abusive" is "alleged abuser." "Alleged" is very different from "confirmed." Divorcing couples talk s**t about each other all the time and will try to make the other party look like Satan incarnate in order to get the kids, the house, the alimony, etc.

And if we are talking about patriarchal society, how likely is a man to admit that he had been abused by a woman? Is that even socially acceptable in wide circles?

That's a broad claim; though I agree with sex offenses. That's an obvious one. But I'm not sure it's more lenient to women in cases when mothers kill their children. You have statistics on this?

That's not how it is in cultures like Japan and Korea where BOTH men and women use relational aggression. It depends on the culture; people literally are their culture. Look at Tahiti. Look at the Polynesians before the American and Brits destroyed their culture.

I think when they say alleged abuser, it means there are physical signs of abuse, but it has not been confirmed legally.

I don't think you are getting this. Obviously not because OF the patriarchy. That's why we say it harms men as well; because they're not supposed to be like women and cry and be emotional. THAT IS the PATRIARCHY.

I don't have the statistics on it. I am going on case-by-case basis. From all the documentaries I've ever seen about heinous acts of violence against children, the mother will play postpartum depression card and get a more lenient sentence. The father often ends up on death row. There is actually a huge inequality in terms of sentencing by age and by gender. Did you know that children who kill their parents will get even harsher sentences than parent who kill their children? Even if those parents were abusing them? Our court systems are run on public opinion and, as we know, the public is never wrong. Villain = a big man or an angsty teenager. Anyone who doesn't fit that mold gets off easier.

LOL In my culture it is common for a woman to physically assault a man and vice-versa. The image of an obese Ukrainian woman beating a skinny frail husband with a rolling-pin became a common comic symbol. That being said, there is some indication that women's brains are structured differently from men's brains and that causes some differences in behavior and socialization (Most of it comes from research done on transsexuals whereby their brains would be structured similarly to the brains of the gender they want to be. I can TRY to look up sources on that one [last time I read a trans study was a year ago]). As a personal experience, I grew up in a very gender-neutral household and although I did not turn out as "girly" as some of the other little girls, I was different from boys who were being raised in a similar manner (it was a popular methodology in the early 90's among teachers to raise their kids gender-neutral). I was communicating verbally much better and I expressed my anger and frustration in words more often than with fists.

That being said, I greatly dislike the more recent move for a gender divide among children in North America. The way some little girls are today, if I were their age, I'd beat them up and break their dolls before guys ever got to them. The princess obsession is becoming ridiculous and there is no balance in how little girls are raised. I look at my future niece in law, and she is flaky, whiny, princess-obsessed, princess-imitating, unmotivated little crybaby. Heaven forbid a ball hits her in the face! God help you if she's not wearing pink, or Hello Kitty, or princess clothing. All her games are either about princesses or about parties or about being a mother. And she loves make-up. LOVES. I'm scared to see what she'll turn into when she hits 13. I also wonder how am I ever going to keep myself from spanking or slapping her before that happens.


I think you're confusing what "alleged" means. It is accused but not yet proven or convicted. [1] If you want your OP to sound credible, you may want to see how many of these men are proven abusers or are convicted on abuse charges. That data is pretty easy to find.

I never said that patriarchy does not negatively impact men. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth to call it "patriarchy." Patriarchy sounds male-culture driven. Do we as women not have a culture? I bet we do! And I have had friends who described guys that get emotional as "disgusting." I once shared with my ex-best friend about how the guy I was dating broke down crying during a fight (I was describing it with empathy because I felt really bad for him at the time). She told me that she could never stay with someone like that and that she couldn't believe that I was tolerating it and still with him.

Do I understand where this stems from? Yes. But I don't like the term.

I had a wonderfully well-written response to your points, but my internet kicked me off and now it's lost. Argh. So I'm just going to refute a few points you made.

You are wrong; Biological fathers are responsible for about 55% of murders of their own
offspring and biological mothers about 45%. Mothers are responsible for the majority of infant deaths because of Post Partum Depression, which is extremely common. Here

Also, here is the definition of patriarchy, which the US and many other cultures fit: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patriarchy

Here is a great book on the relationship of the dominant culture (white, male, heterosexual) and the co-cultures (female, Latino/a, black, Hispanic, homosexual, trans, blind, etc.) in the US. You should be able to read it from my link: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Z7X6yLK2qeMC&oi=fnd&pg=PA376&dq=dominant+culture+male+in+US&ots=xP4ZpmacGJ&sig=EX-JDgMBidY2mImq80LMZp2ng1g#v=onepage&q=dominant culture male in US&f=false

[Dreaded Jai]

Meroko_Love

64 bits

Mister George Kapland

We should probably educate people on the signs of an abusive relationship.

Ladies, if he's beating you. You should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you have male friends, you should probably leave.
If he doesn't let you out of the house, you should probably leave.

The problem with that is the psychological grip an abusive spouse can have. It's easy to say "you should leave" but it's not always easy to leave.

You're starting to sound like a feminist! surprised biggrin

That's weird. Thought I usually say pretty logical things.