x PrinceSadist x
(?)Community Member
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- Posted: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:26:02 +0000
Im sick of all these fans of a peice of crap
I am so sorry for all the incorrect spelling there migth be.
The copyrigths of these belong to my friend.
NO REPOSTING THE FIRST POST
-Feel free to post your opion.
i will not argue I am more mature than that
Argument 1:
~~~~Twilight is a poorly written disaster. The plot is horrible and wayyyy to improbable. More improbable than vampires considering vampires have no reproductive organs. So sex cannot happen, that baby definitely happen. And why the hell does Bella obsess over having sex with Edward when he is trying to do other fun things with her? There love is way to obsessive and its like she's some 14 year old who lost her virginity to a guy. BAD. Horrible. Despicable. Vulgar. These words all describe this book. So if you want to go waste your life away reading useless crap go ahead. But are better books out there. I definitely know I have read hundreds.~~~~~~~~
Argument 2:
1. Edward is abusive
2.Fantasy does not excuse a lack of realism
3. The books are sexist
4. The books have no plot/ character development
5. Bella and Edward are in lust, not love...So there goes your comments about it being a great love story
6. Bella is an idiot
7. Imprinting is sexual no matter what (aka imprinting is sexist and *****)
8. The twilight books send bad messages...and yes it is a big deal
Argument 3: Having to do with your "sexy" Edward
1. Edward is controlling and domineering
2. Edward has an unequal share of authority over the relationship
3. Edward threatens suicide
4. Edward manipulates Bella into marriage
5. Edward actively attempts to prevent Bella from seeing her friend (removes engine, has her kidnapped)
6. Edward encourages Bella’s isolation from others
Argument 4: Having to do with fantasy
“[x] doesn’t make sense”
For the sake of argument, you may replace “x” with the lack of realism (in terms of plot and setting and especially the various relationships), the sparkly issue, the biology issue, contradictions and hypocrisies, the abandonment of traditional vampire lore, etc.
The response to this is either
a) an attempt to prove that [x] makes sense using a minutiae of plot point and semantics;
b) “It’s fantasy; it doesn’t have to be realistic!”
Since point a varies from debate-to-debate, I’ll stick with point b for the time being.
“It’s fantasy; it doesn’t have to be realistic” is so completely and utterly wrong on so many levels that I almost don’t know where to begin.
Argument 5: Why twilight is sexist
- Bella plays the weak 'damsel in distress' role;
- Bella is weak-willed morally (wants to have sex but Edward, the good, upstanding, moral man wants to wait until marriage);
- Bella has no ambitions outside of Edward (doesn't want to go to college);
- Bella cooks and cleans for her father
- Bella forgives Edward instantly for the New Moon fiasco ("forgive your man no matter what" wink
- The "shallow" friends (Jessica, Angela, etc.) are not given as much screen time as Mike, let's say, and Bella writes them off as basically Barbie dolls whereas the boys are given personalities.
- Bella's mom is flighty and inconsistent whereas her father is solid, dependable, caring.
- Rosalie had shallow ambitions as a human, was a damsel in distress, and has a victimized backstory as opposed to say, Jasper, who was kickass.
- Esme does nothing; she exists for sole purpose of Carlisle having a mate.
What the Twilight defense usually says in response to these arguments is the following.
1. "Bella doesn't mind", "Bella knows that Edward loves her", "Bella offers to cook and clean", "Bella DOES have ambition--marrying Edward"
2. "But Alice is strong, so therefore the books aren't sexist"
3. "They're just surprised that Leah is a werewolf, and wouldn't you be mad at Sam if you were her? That's not sexist!", "Imprinting is romantic, like soul-mates"
Argument 6: Twilight has no plot
Let’s review.
1. Bella moves to Forks.
2. Bella meets Edward.
3. Bella and Edward “fall in love” (given that this happens in about two weeks I really don’t know if it counts, but I’m giving Twilight the benefit of the doubt)
4. James comes after Bella.
5. James bites the dust (couldn’t resist, sorry).
Twilight has no plot. Events happen, sure, but they aren’t accompanied with and don’t effect change in character development, thematic development, and conflict. Instead, Twilight is 400+ pages of whiny rambling and immature gushing over the elusive perfection that is Edward Cullen, a tabula rasa of a character and no more real than a three-legged gnome casting love spells on unsuspecting Elvish citizenry.
Argument 7: Lust not love
Bella tells us, Edward tells us, and Meyer sure as h*ll tells us that Bella and Edward have true love. They are soul mates. Bella’s lifeblood—her very essence—sings to Edward’s soul.
The best part is that this incredible true love (“Better than Elizabeth and Darcy,” Meyer claims, “better than ‘evil’ Heathcliff and selfish Catherine!”) happens within the first five seconds of meeting each other. Amazing, I know—who’d have thought that people could realize their love for all eternity with one glance at the other’s stunning, gorgeous, sparkling mug?
Well, I don’t. And the antis don’t. And all the evidence in the series points to, “No, B & E are not in love.” Lust? Given by the amount of times Bella tries to corrupt Edward’s delicate Victorian sensibilities by employing her lascivious feminine wiles, I’d say that’s a yes. Infatuation? Every other word is “ZOMG, Edward is so hawt!” and “I lurrrvveee him!” So yeah, the word is infatuation.
The fact is, there is no indication anywhere in the series that Edward and Bella are compatible mates. They don’t ever have conversations (aside from how wonderful the other is and/or “I’m dangerous, stay away!”), they don’t ever do anything together (what’s wrong with seeing a movie or reading a book together? They watch Romeo and Juliet in the first book but that was a thinly-disguised plot device for the express purpose of comparing them to R&J [ironically apt, given that R&J were in lust as well] and for the gag-worthy suckfest of quoting the lines at each other).
Of course, it’s not their fault that they aren’t compatible—it’s the fact that there’s nothing to be compatible with. Bella and Edward are empty tabulae rasae and as much as Meyer wants us to believe that they have twu luv, she shoots herself in the foot by not giving them actual personalities. When a character’s only trait is his “hotness”, there really cannot be any basis for a true-to-life relationship and thus we get the lust-fest that is all four books.
Argument 8: Bella is an idiot!
several of Bella’s actions indicate that she is, in fact, not the brightest bulb in the box. Let’s list some of her stupid actions:
1. She walks off into a dark alley where she might get raped. WTF.
2. She doesn’t tell Edward or any of the centuries-old, experienced vampires about James’ message, deciding to handle it herself instead (and nearly getting herself killed).
3. She gets lost in the woods (granted, emotional issues aside) within sight of her own home.
4. She repeatedly puts herself (and her life) in danger to hear a voice in her head.
5. Despite writing an essay on Shakespeare being misogynistic, she does not recognize at all the sexist and abusive elements in her own relationships.
So despite Meyer telling us that Bella is a special snowflake in the neurons-and-synapses department, in reality she’s a pretty foolish character, though it’s not just this area in which the author shows and tells something different. In fact, the entire series is contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. Some quick examples:
1. Meyer tells us that Bella “knows herself”, yet it takes Jacob sexually assaulting her for her to realize that she’s love with him (after months of leading him along like a horrible b***h).
2. Meyer tells us that Bella is “independent”, yet she devolves into a zombie for months on end when precious Edward leaves her (and relies on Jacob for any semblance of happiness thereafter).
3. Bella says that she hates all the superficial girls at school, yet her own relationship is based on the fact that Edward is a shiny, marble Adonis rather than, you know, he has a great personality.
So, where does this leave us?
Oh, right. Bella is an idiot.
Argument 9: Twilight sends bad messages
This is a bit of a convoluted argument but I’m going to ask you do to your best to stay with me here. I’ve already discussed at length the abuse, sexism, imprinting, etc. etc. so for the purposes of this argument, we’re going to go with the assumption that the fan has accepted—at least to a degree—the existence, if not the ramifications, of the bad points of the Twilight series. This argument (“Why don’t you ban everything that’s anti-feminist, then?”) is usually a last-ditch, “I really can’t argue with you using the text” point and while it can be cleverly disguised and sometimes even a bit persuasive, its logic is inherently flawed.
Fans love to bring Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice into the mix; usually because Meyer herself introduces those two novels in particular as a kind of warped source material and they think it gives credence to their argument.
It doesn’t (but more on that later).
I mentioned it in the sexism argument, but I’m going to repeat it here. I don’t have an inherent problem with an author portraying abuse or sexism or murder or rape in a novel. What I DO have a problem with is when those issues are not addressed. For example, I wrote that the biggest reason that the books are sexist is because Bella herself (nor any of the other characters, but that’s beside the point given that Bella is the narrator) doesn’t notice. The idea of sexism or abuse never even enters her mind in the slightest.
“So it’s not a big deal, then!” the fans like to cry. “If it were, Bella would be mad!”
No. The fact that Bella doesn’t notice is exactly the problem. It means that a) Meyer doesn’t realize what’s she’s writing and trying to pass off as “perfect” or b) Meyer intends it and actually does hold sexist (etc., etc.) views as “perfect” or “ideal”. Either way, it means that Meyer is calling something “perfect” when it most certainly is not—thus idealizing abusive relationships, rampant sexism, justifying suicide, etc.
I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that most likely, Meyer simply doesn’t realize it. If she did, it wouldn’t be nearly as “perfect” as she likes to think it is—where’s the romance in Bella saying, “Screw you, Edward, I’ll do/see/hang out with what-/whoever I want” or “I’m going to call the police if you keep stalking me!”.
Let’s draw a comparison. Hey, look, there’s my copy of Pride and Prejudice. Perfect—written between 1796 and 1797 and published in 1813, it qualifies as one of the “old” books on which the Twilight series is supposedly based. Many fans like to say, “Well, there’s sexism in P&P, do you hate that book too?”
Remember how I said that Meyer doesn’t address the issues of sexism, etc. in the books? Well, yeah, Austen does do that. In fact, Austen skillfully and insightfully expresses the times’ inequality of the sexes and presents a harsh social commentary (through the veneer of witty repartee) using the story of strong-willed Elizabeth Bennet and noble Mr. Darcy. The sexism, classism, etc. are some of the cornerstones of the book in that Austen uses her heroine to combat them.
Or, take Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre (1847) and its titular character. Like Elizabeth, Jane is faced with classism, sexism, lack of opportunity, and, like Bella, is faced with dealing with somewhat of a Byronic hero (brooding, dark, secretive, ‘superior’). Like Elizabeth, Jane basically gives a polite and cultured “******** you!” to her antagonists, and unlike Bella, Jane doesn’t take any crap from Mr. Rochester. In fact, the feminist theme in Jane Eyre is so firm and pervasive that by the end of the book, Jane has completely turned the traditional gender roles on their asses. Together, she and Elizabeth represent two of the strongest female characters in all of literature. Bella? Bella doesn’t even deserve to be on the same bookshelf as them.
“Twilight is based off of older literature, so it’s not Meyer’s responsibility to cater to modern philosophy.”
Continuing with the P&P and Jane Eyre themes, just because a book is “old” doesn’t prevent it from having visionary and modern themes and considering that P&P is supposed to be one of the books on which Twilight is based, I’d say that Meyer does a horrifically piss-poor job of staying true to the its ideas. Rather, Meyer appears to be basing her series off of old IDEAS and old TRADITIONS, which is entirely different from literature. And if that’s the case, then my giving her the benefit of the doubt was unwarranted and she herself holds sexist and anti-feminist views. At that point, there’s no sense in arguing any further.
SO now
Here is your little fan girl/guy chance to make your argument.
Now: Don't make your argument if you haven't fully read it.
That would just make you look stupid.
I understand that this was a waste of time, you know, why bother.
But I'm so ******** tired of little girls always saying "you haven't read the book, you won't understand" "Twilight is a great book"
Well here you go...
I am so sorry for all the incorrect spelling there migth be.
The copyrigths of these belong to my friend.
NO REPOSTING THE FIRST POST
-Feel free to post your opion.
i will not argue I am more mature than that
Argument 1:
Quote:
~~~~Twilight is a poorly written disaster. The plot is horrible and wayyyy to improbable. More improbable than vampires considering vampires have no reproductive organs. So sex cannot happen, that baby definitely happen. And why the hell does Bella obsess over having sex with Edward when he is trying to do other fun things with her? There love is way to obsessive and its like she's some 14 year old who lost her virginity to a guy. BAD. Horrible. Despicable. Vulgar. These words all describe this book. So if you want to go waste your life away reading useless crap go ahead. But are better books out there. I definitely know I have read hundreds.~~~~~~~~
Argument 2:
Quote:
1. Edward is abusive
2.Fantasy does not excuse a lack of realism
3. The books are sexist
4. The books have no plot/ character development
5. Bella and Edward are in lust, not love...So there goes your comments about it being a great love story
6. Bella is an idiot
7. Imprinting is sexual no matter what (aka imprinting is sexist and *****)
8. The twilight books send bad messages...and yes it is a big deal
Argument 3: Having to do with your "sexy" Edward
Quote:
1. Edward is controlling and domineering
2. Edward has an unequal share of authority over the relationship
3. Edward threatens suicide
4. Edward manipulates Bella into marriage
5. Edward actively attempts to prevent Bella from seeing her friend (removes engine, has her kidnapped)
6. Edward encourages Bella’s isolation from others
Argument 4: Having to do with fantasy
Quote:
“[x] doesn’t make sense”
For the sake of argument, you may replace “x” with the lack of realism (in terms of plot and setting and especially the various relationships), the sparkly issue, the biology issue, contradictions and hypocrisies, the abandonment of traditional vampire lore, etc.
The response to this is either
a) an attempt to prove that [x] makes sense using a minutiae of plot point and semantics;
b) “It’s fantasy; it doesn’t have to be realistic!”
Since point a varies from debate-to-debate, I’ll stick with point b for the time being.
“It’s fantasy; it doesn’t have to be realistic” is so completely and utterly wrong on so many levels that I almost don’t know where to begin.
Argument 5: Why twilight is sexist
Quote:
- Bella plays the weak 'damsel in distress' role;
- Bella is weak-willed morally (wants to have sex but Edward, the good, upstanding, moral man wants to wait until marriage);
- Bella has no ambitions outside of Edward (doesn't want to go to college);
- Bella cooks and cleans for her father
- Bella forgives Edward instantly for the New Moon fiasco ("forgive your man no matter what" wink
- The "shallow" friends (Jessica, Angela, etc.) are not given as much screen time as Mike, let's say, and Bella writes them off as basically Barbie dolls whereas the boys are given personalities.
- Bella's mom is flighty and inconsistent whereas her father is solid, dependable, caring.
- Rosalie had shallow ambitions as a human, was a damsel in distress, and has a victimized backstory as opposed to say, Jasper, who was kickass.
- Esme does nothing; she exists for sole purpose of Carlisle having a mate.
What the Twilight defense usually says in response to these arguments is the following.
1. "Bella doesn't mind", "Bella knows that Edward loves her", "Bella offers to cook and clean", "Bella DOES have ambition--marrying Edward"
2. "But Alice is strong, so therefore the books aren't sexist"
3. "They're just surprised that Leah is a werewolf, and wouldn't you be mad at Sam if you were her? That's not sexist!", "Imprinting is romantic, like soul-mates"
Argument 6: Twilight has no plot
Quote:
Let’s review.
1. Bella moves to Forks.
2. Bella meets Edward.
3. Bella and Edward “fall in love” (given that this happens in about two weeks I really don’t know if it counts, but I’m giving Twilight the benefit of the doubt)
4. James comes after Bella.
5. James bites the dust (couldn’t resist, sorry).
Twilight has no plot. Events happen, sure, but they aren’t accompanied with and don’t effect change in character development, thematic development, and conflict. Instead, Twilight is 400+ pages of whiny rambling and immature gushing over the elusive perfection that is Edward Cullen, a tabula rasa of a character and no more real than a three-legged gnome casting love spells on unsuspecting Elvish citizenry.
Argument 7: Lust not love
Quote:
Bella tells us, Edward tells us, and Meyer sure as h*ll tells us that Bella and Edward have true love. They are soul mates. Bella’s lifeblood—her very essence—sings to Edward’s soul.
The best part is that this incredible true love (“Better than Elizabeth and Darcy,” Meyer claims, “better than ‘evil’ Heathcliff and selfish Catherine!”) happens within the first five seconds of meeting each other. Amazing, I know—who’d have thought that people could realize their love for all eternity with one glance at the other’s stunning, gorgeous, sparkling mug?
Well, I don’t. And the antis don’t. And all the evidence in the series points to, “No, B & E are not in love.” Lust? Given by the amount of times Bella tries to corrupt Edward’s delicate Victorian sensibilities by employing her lascivious feminine wiles, I’d say that’s a yes. Infatuation? Every other word is “ZOMG, Edward is so hawt!” and “I lurrrvveee him!” So yeah, the word is infatuation.
The fact is, there is no indication anywhere in the series that Edward and Bella are compatible mates. They don’t ever have conversations (aside from how wonderful the other is and/or “I’m dangerous, stay away!”), they don’t ever do anything together (what’s wrong with seeing a movie or reading a book together? They watch Romeo and Juliet in the first book but that was a thinly-disguised plot device for the express purpose of comparing them to R&J [ironically apt, given that R&J were in lust as well] and for the gag-worthy suckfest of quoting the lines at each other).
Of course, it’s not their fault that they aren’t compatible—it’s the fact that there’s nothing to be compatible with. Bella and Edward are empty tabulae rasae and as much as Meyer wants us to believe that they have twu luv, she shoots herself in the foot by not giving them actual personalities. When a character’s only trait is his “hotness”, there really cannot be any basis for a true-to-life relationship and thus we get the lust-fest that is all four books.
Argument 8: Bella is an idiot!
Quote:
several of Bella’s actions indicate that she is, in fact, not the brightest bulb in the box. Let’s list some of her stupid actions:
1. She walks off into a dark alley where she might get raped. WTF.
2. She doesn’t tell Edward or any of the centuries-old, experienced vampires about James’ message, deciding to handle it herself instead (and nearly getting herself killed).
3. She gets lost in the woods (granted, emotional issues aside) within sight of her own home.
4. She repeatedly puts herself (and her life) in danger to hear a voice in her head.
5. Despite writing an essay on Shakespeare being misogynistic, she does not recognize at all the sexist and abusive elements in her own relationships.
So despite Meyer telling us that Bella is a special snowflake in the neurons-and-synapses department, in reality she’s a pretty foolish character, though it’s not just this area in which the author shows and tells something different. In fact, the entire series is contradiction after contradiction after contradiction. Some quick examples:
1. Meyer tells us that Bella “knows herself”, yet it takes Jacob sexually assaulting her for her to realize that she’s love with him (after months of leading him along like a horrible b***h).
2. Meyer tells us that Bella is “independent”, yet she devolves into a zombie for months on end when precious Edward leaves her (and relies on Jacob for any semblance of happiness thereafter).
3. Bella says that she hates all the superficial girls at school, yet her own relationship is based on the fact that Edward is a shiny, marble Adonis rather than, you know, he has a great personality.
So, where does this leave us?
Oh, right. Bella is an idiot.
Argument 9: Twilight sends bad messages
Quote:
This is a bit of a convoluted argument but I’m going to ask you do to your best to stay with me here. I’ve already discussed at length the abuse, sexism, imprinting, etc. etc. so for the purposes of this argument, we’re going to go with the assumption that the fan has accepted—at least to a degree—the existence, if not the ramifications, of the bad points of the Twilight series. This argument (“Why don’t you ban everything that’s anti-feminist, then?”) is usually a last-ditch, “I really can’t argue with you using the text” point and while it can be cleverly disguised and sometimes even a bit persuasive, its logic is inherently flawed.
Fans love to bring Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice into the mix; usually because Meyer herself introduces those two novels in particular as a kind of warped source material and they think it gives credence to their argument.
It doesn’t (but more on that later).
I mentioned it in the sexism argument, but I’m going to repeat it here. I don’t have an inherent problem with an author portraying abuse or sexism or murder or rape in a novel. What I DO have a problem with is when those issues are not addressed. For example, I wrote that the biggest reason that the books are sexist is because Bella herself (nor any of the other characters, but that’s beside the point given that Bella is the narrator) doesn’t notice. The idea of sexism or abuse never even enters her mind in the slightest.
“So it’s not a big deal, then!” the fans like to cry. “If it were, Bella would be mad!”
No. The fact that Bella doesn’t notice is exactly the problem. It means that a) Meyer doesn’t realize what’s she’s writing and trying to pass off as “perfect” or b) Meyer intends it and actually does hold sexist (etc., etc.) views as “perfect” or “ideal”. Either way, it means that Meyer is calling something “perfect” when it most certainly is not—thus idealizing abusive relationships, rampant sexism, justifying suicide, etc.
I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that most likely, Meyer simply doesn’t realize it. If she did, it wouldn’t be nearly as “perfect” as she likes to think it is—where’s the romance in Bella saying, “Screw you, Edward, I’ll do/see/hang out with what-/whoever I want” or “I’m going to call the police if you keep stalking me!”.
Let’s draw a comparison. Hey, look, there’s my copy of Pride and Prejudice. Perfect—written between 1796 and 1797 and published in 1813, it qualifies as one of the “old” books on which the Twilight series is supposedly based. Many fans like to say, “Well, there’s sexism in P&P, do you hate that book too?”
Remember how I said that Meyer doesn’t address the issues of sexism, etc. in the books? Well, yeah, Austen does do that. In fact, Austen skillfully and insightfully expresses the times’ inequality of the sexes and presents a harsh social commentary (through the veneer of witty repartee) using the story of strong-willed Elizabeth Bennet and noble Mr. Darcy. The sexism, classism, etc. are some of the cornerstones of the book in that Austen uses her heroine to combat them.
Or, take Charlotte Brontë’s Jane Eyre (1847) and its titular character. Like Elizabeth, Jane is faced with classism, sexism, lack of opportunity, and, like Bella, is faced with dealing with somewhat of a Byronic hero (brooding, dark, secretive, ‘superior’). Like Elizabeth, Jane basically gives a polite and cultured “******** you!” to her antagonists, and unlike Bella, Jane doesn’t take any crap from Mr. Rochester. In fact, the feminist theme in Jane Eyre is so firm and pervasive that by the end of the book, Jane has completely turned the traditional gender roles on their asses. Together, she and Elizabeth represent two of the strongest female characters in all of literature. Bella? Bella doesn’t even deserve to be on the same bookshelf as them.
“Twilight is based off of older literature, so it’s not Meyer’s responsibility to cater to modern philosophy.”
Continuing with the P&P and Jane Eyre themes, just because a book is “old” doesn’t prevent it from having visionary and modern themes and considering that P&P is supposed to be one of the books on which Twilight is based, I’d say that Meyer does a horrifically piss-poor job of staying true to the its ideas. Rather, Meyer appears to be basing her series off of old IDEAS and old TRADITIONS, which is entirely different from literature. And if that’s the case, then my giving her the benefit of the doubt was unwarranted and she herself holds sexist and anti-feminist views. At that point, there’s no sense in arguing any further.
SO now
Here is your little fan girl/guy chance to make your argument.
Now: Don't make your argument if you haven't fully read it.
That would just make you look stupid.
I understand that this was a waste of time, you know, why bother.
But I'm so ******** tired of little girls always saying "you haven't read the book, you won't understand" "Twilight is a great book"
Well here you go...
