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No place like 127 0 0 1

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:36 am
SinfulGuillotine Wrote:
ChibiLi Wrote:


smilies/icon_xp.gif Of course gays can be Christian. Eventually, when they become saved, their ability to be attracted to the same sex would probably just fade away with time. smilies/icon_3nodding.gif
Not really, no. smilies/icon_neutral.gif

smilies/icon_gonk.gif  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:21 pm
Yes, gay people can be Christians.

I know a gay man who is a devout Christian. He's one of my close friends.

EDIT: This was just brought up to me by my fiance.

You know how, in the bible, it says that gays should be put to death?

Well, it also says that children who disobey their parents should be put to death.

Why should there be issues about the gays one, but not the children one?

EDIT II: Found the excerpt.

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

Which pretty much means: If a child disobeys(curses) his father or mother, he shall be put to death.

For the record, I'm a Christian. >.>;  

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:29 pm
"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Children abusing their parents, by cursing them. If children should speak evil of their parents, or wish evil to them, or carry it scornfully or spitefully towards them, it was an iniquity to be punished by the judges, who were employed as conservators both of God's honor and of the public peace, which were both attacked by this unnatural insolence. "The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out" (Prov. 30:17), which intimates that such wicked children were in a fair way to be not only hanged, but hanged in chains. This law of Moses, Christ quotes and confirms (Matt. 15:4), for it is as direct a breach of the 5th Commandment as willful murder is of the sixth. The same law which requires parents to be tender of their children requires children to be respectful to their parents. He that despite fully uses his parents, the instruments of his being, flies in the face of God himself, the author of his being, who will not see the paternal dignity and authority insulted and trampled upon.

Ratatosk Sciuridae Wrote:
Why should there be issues about the gays one, but not the children one?

Because secular society of American and other countries are forcing people to accept the homosexual agenda in are public schools, media and our nation's government. It’s progressively growing in our culture and attacking Christianity at the same time. Society doesn't support disobedient children but they are willing to defend the homosexual agenda. That's why its a hot button topic today, among with abortion and divorce.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:03 am
Monergism Wrote:
"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Children abusing their parents, by cursing them. If children should speak evil of their parents, or wish evil to them, or carry it scornfully or spitefully towards them, it was an iniquity to be punished by the judges, who were employed as conservators both of God's honor and of the public peace, which were both attacked by this unnatural insolence. "The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out" (Prov. 30:17), which intimates that such wicked children were in a fair way to be not only hanged, but hanged in chains. This law of Moses, Christ quotes and confirms (Matt. 15:4), for it is as direct a breach of the 5th Commandment as willful murder is of the sixth. The same law which requires parents to be tender of their children requires children to be respectful to their parents. He that despite fully uses his parents, the instruments of his being, flies in the face of God himself, the author of his being, who will not see the paternal dignity and authority insulted and trampled upon.

Ratatosk Sciuridae Wrote:
Why should there be issues about the gays one, but not the children one?

Because secular society of American and other countries are forcing people to accept the homosexual agenda in are public schools, media and our nation's government. It’s progressively growing in our culture and attacking Christianity at the same time. Society doesn't support disobedient children but they are willing to defend the homosexual agenda. That's why its a hot button topic today, among with abortion and divorce.
You know, Jesus was an accepting and tolerant man. Why can't Christians be more like him, neh?  

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:50 pm
Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
Monergism Wrote:
"For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Children abusing their parents, by cursing them. If children should speak evil of their parents, or wish evil to them, or carry it scornfully or spitefully towards them, it was an iniquity to be punished by the judges, who were employed as conservators both of God's honor and of the public peace, which were both attacked by this unnatural insolence. "The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out" (Prov. 30:17), which intimates that such wicked children were in a fair way to be not only hanged, but hanged in chains. This law of Moses, Christ quotes and confirms (Matt. 15:4), for it is as direct a breach of the 5th Commandment as willful murder is of the sixth. The same law which requires parents to be tender of their children requires children to be respectful to their parents. He that despite fully uses his parents, the instruments of his being, flies in the face of God himself, the author of his being, who will not see the paternal dignity and authority insulted and trampled upon.

Ratatosk Sciuridae Wrote:
Why should there be issues about the gays one, but not the children one?

Because secular society of American and other countries are forcing people to accept the homosexual agenda in are public schools, media and our nation's government. It’s progressively growing in our culture and attacking Christianity at the same time. Society doesn't support disobedient children but they are willing to defend the homosexual agenda. That's why its a hot button topic today, among with abortion and divorce.

You know, Jesus was an accepting and tolerant man. Why can't Christians be more like him, neh?

Jesus was merciful but he did not accept or tolerate anyone's sin and or wickedness, just like the Father.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades." ~ Luke 10:13-15

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. He said to them, "It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.'" ~ Matthew 21:12-13

"I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. For from now on in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law." ~ Luke 12:49-53

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." ~ Matthew 23:29-36

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." ~ Matthew 10:34-38  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:46 pm
Homosexuality isn't wicked. What's wicked is telling people that they're going to hell for doing something in their own private life. How would you feel if someone told you were going to hell for doing something in private? You wouldn't be too happy now would you? And backing up your source is nice and all, but could you put it in your own words please?  

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:07 pm
The basic concept is sin, though. Why would sin be limited to external things? In fact, everything I have heard about sin shows that at it's essence it is something so deeply rooted in human experience, that we need God to get rid of it for us.

Homosexuality certainly fits the bill in that way: scientists say that at least in many gay men (can't say for lesbians. I don't remember reading anything) that it's something biologically different with them. That is certainly something that can't be gotten rid of without God completely remaking a person, as He does with resurrection.

Private life shouldn't be pried into, but you have to realize that God goes everywhere; that He needs to go everywhere to make us new again. It's stated in the Bible that homosexuality is not something that God considers right, and really in my mind that's all that's needed to group it with the other 'universal' sins.

Now as far as how to treat homosexuals? Don't treat them differently. Why should we? Just because sin shows up in their life in a way that's somewhat unsettling?  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:47 am
Sin is deeply rooted..but what causes this "sin"? I believe it's a psychological problem that cannot be "prayed" away. That's what I think anyways.

And it's biologically different for both lesbians and gays. Remember when we're born we have both testosterone and estrogen in our bodies. Once we hit puberty that evens up. Sometimes with men they have higher levels of estrogen and women have higher levels of testosterone. Bisexuals more than likely still have both levels in their body. Transgenders think they are a male stuck in a girl's body or girl stuck in a guy's body. That's a mental issue more than a biological issue. Asexuals don't have the need for sex and Pansexuals don't see gender.

Just because God is everywhere doesn't mean pry into their private life. If anything what they do is between God and them not you and them. You are not God so you don't have the right to tell them what's wrong with them when you sin yourself. Matthew 7:3.

And yes, treat gays with the same respect tolerance and acceptance you treat your fellow straight man. They are not different than you. All that's different is their choice in love. Doesn't mean show them contempt or hatred. Remember the age old saying "Treat others as how you would want to be treated". If you sinned would you want people to show hatred and contempt for you? No. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't.  

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:45 am
Thing is, it doesn't really matter if it can be prayed away or not. I've heard cases going both ways; where a homosexual person has been 'changed'. I'm also sure there are plenty of cases where the person isn't 'changed'. Really what matters most is the dedication to God and Jesus, regardless.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:32 am
ShideKnight Wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't really matter if it can be prayed away or not. I've heard cases going both ways; where a homosexual person has been 'changed'. I'm also sure there are plenty of cases where the person isn't 'changed'. Really what matters most is the dedication to God and Jesus, regardless.
Those that claim to be changed, have only repressed their feelings.  

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:40 pm
with an issue like this, (or for that matter, any issue) the only thing we can consult is God's word. yes, Jesus does tell us to love our neighbors as ourselves, but this world has a very wrong definition of love. love as God sees it is not kissing, hugging, etc., but loving as Jesus loved, by giving God's word, the truth, despite worrying about the outcome. Jesus accepted all and so should we. on the subject of homosexuality, Leviticus 20:13 says this: “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. Grand Rapids : Zondervan, 1996, c1984, S. Le 20:13  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:20 pm
Phantomboy411 Wrote:
with an issue like this, (or for that matter, any issue) the only thing we can consult is God's word. yes, Jesus does tell us to love our neighbors as ourselves, but this world has a very wrong definition of love. love as God sees it is not kissing, hugging, etc., but loving as Jesus loved, by giving God's word, the truth, despite worrying about the outcome. Jesus accepted all and so should we. on the subject of homosexuality, Leviticus 20:13 says this: “‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. Grand Rapids : Zondervan, 1996, c1984, S. Le 20:13
The OT was made null and void when Jesus brought the NT. So going by an old law like Leviticus is foolish. It also says that eating shellfish is an abomination. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif  

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:22 pm
Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
Those that claim to be changed, have only repressed their feelings.


Really? Where's your backing for that comment? It really seems silly to me to suggest that people can't change as they get older; especially when God gets involved.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:26 pm
ShideKnight Wrote:
Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
Those that claim to be changed, have only repressed their feelings.


Really? Where's your backing for that comment? It really seems silly to me to suggest that people can't change as they get older; especially when God gets involved.
Because it's a common psychological tactic. I've done it before, dear. I've done it most my life. I've repressed moments of my childhood that I wish to forget altogether. I've also repressed certain feelings for certain people and currently trying to repress feelings for a guy that I like but he's like a bro to me.  

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:46 pm
Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
Homosexuality isn't wicked.

Fornication, adultery, homosexuality and bestiality are great perversion of God's ultimate design and purpose. The Law required the punishment of death to those who are guilty.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
~ Romans 1:18-28

The effect of perverting the instinct to worship God is the perversion of other instincts from their proper functions. Scripture views all homosexual actions in this light (Lev 18:22; 21-13). God gave them up, in a way of righteous judgment, as the just punishment of their idolatry-taking off the bridle of restraining grace—leaving them to themselves—letting them alone; for his grace is his own, he is a debtor to no man, he may give or withhold his grace at pleasure. This we are sure of that it is no new thing for God to give men up to their own hearts' lusts, to send them strong delusions, to let Satan loose upon them, nay, to lay stumbling-blocks before them. Refusing to understand the God that made him, thus becomes worse than the beasts that perish, (Psalms 49:20). A man cannot be delivered up to a greater slavery than to be given up to his own lusts. Such are given over, like the Egyptians (Isaiah. 19:4), into the hand of a cruel lord.

Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
What's wicked is telling people that they're going to hell for doing something in their own private life. How would you feel if someone told you were going to hell for doing something in private? You wouldn't be too happy now would you?

If that private sin would lead one to God's holy and righteous wrath, it would be loving to warn that person.

Goddess of Wolves Rai Wrote:
Just because God is everywhere doesn't mean pry into their private life. If anything what they do is between God and them not you and them. You are not God so you don't have the right to tell them what's wrong with them when you sin yourself. Matthew 7:3

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. ~ Matthew 7:1-5

Jesus is here directing us how to conduct ourselves in reference to the faults of others; and his expressions seem intended as a reproof to the scribes and Pharisees, who were very rigid and severe, very magisterial and supercilious, in condemning all about them, as those commonly are, that are proud and conceited in justifying themselves. The prohibition; Judge not. We must judge ourselves, and judge our own acts, but we must not judge our brother, not magisterially assume such an authority over others, as we allow not them over us: since our rule is, to be subject to one another. Be not many masters, (James 3:1). We must not sit in the judgment-seat, to make our word a law to every body. We must not judge our brother, that is, we must not speak evil of him, so it is explained, (James 4:11). We must not despise him, nor set him at nought, (Romans 14:10). We must not judge rashly or pass such a judgment upon our brother as has no ground, but is only the product of our own jealousy and ill nature. We must not make the worst of people, nor infer such invidious things from their words and actions as they will not bear. We must not judge uncharitably, unmercifully, nor with a spirit of revenge, and a desire to do mischief. As God will forgive those that forgive their brethren; so he will not judge those that will not judge their brethren; the merciful shall find mercy. It is an evidence of humility, charity, and deference to God, and shall be owned and rewarded by him accordingly. Because we must not judge others, which is a great sin, it does not therefore follow that we must not reprove others, which is a great duty, and may be a means of saving a soul from death; however, it will be a means of saving our souls from sharing in their guilt. It is not every one who is fit to reprove. Those who are themselves guilty of the same faults of which they accuse others, or of worse, bring shame upon themselves, and are not likely to do good to those whom they reprove (verse 3-5).  
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