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Should women be in the pulpit?
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 32 ]
No
31%
 31%  [ 20 ]
Depends
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 63


Medanite

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 7:51 pm
My View:

Bible Questions Answered Wrote:
There is perhaps not a more debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors / preachers in ministry. As a result, it is very important to not view this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe that women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women - and there are men who believe that women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of Biblical interpretation.



1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14). God, through the Apostle Paul’s writing, restricts women from serving in roles of spiritual teaching authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority over men.



There are many "objections" to this view of women in ministry / women pastors. A common one is that Paul restricts women from teaching because in the first century, women were typically uneducated. However, 1 Timothy 2:11-14 nowhere mentions educational status. If education was a qualification for ministry, the majority of Jesus' disciples likely would not have been qualified. A second common objection is that Paul only restricted the Ephesian women from teaching (1 Timothy was written to Timothy, who was the pastor of the church in Ephesus). The city of Ephesus was known for its temple to Artemis, a false Greek / Roman goddess. Women were the authority in the worship of Artemis. However, the book of 1 Timothy nowhere mentions Artemis, nor does Paul mention Artemis worship as a reason for the restrictions in 1 Timothy 2:11-12.



A third common objection is that Paul is only referring to husbands and wives, not men and women in general. The Greek words in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 could refer to husbands and wives. However, the basic meaning of the words are men and women. Further, the same Greek words are used in verses 8-10. Are only husbands to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger and disputing ( verse 8 )? Are only wives to dress modestly, have good deeds, and worship God (verses 9-10)? Of course not. Verses 8-10 clearly refer to men and women in general, not only husbands and wives. There is nothing in the context that would indicate a switch to husbands and wives in verses 11-14.



Yet another frequent objection to this interpretation of women pastors / preachers is in relation to Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla, Phoebe, etc. - women who held positions of leadership in the Bible. This objection fails to note some significant factors. In relation to Deborah, she was the only female judge amongst 13 male judges. In relation to Huldah, she was the only female prophet amongst dozens of male prophets mentioned in the Bible. Miriam's only connection to leadership was due to her being the sister of Moses and Aaron. The two most prominent women in the times of the Kings were Athaliah and Jezebel - hardly examples of godly female leadership.



In the Book of Acts, chapter 18, Priscilla and Aquila are presented as faithful ministers for Christ. Priscilla's name is mentioned first, likely indicating that she was more "prominent" in ministry than her husband. However, Priscilla is nowhere described as participating in a ministry activity that is in contradiction to 1 Timothy 2:11-14. Priscilla and Aquila brought Apollos into their home and they both discipled him, explaining the Word of God to him more accurately (Acts 18:26).



In Romans 16:1, even if Phoebe is considered a "deaconess" instead of a "servant" - that does not indicate that Phoebe was a teacher in the church. "Able to teach" is given as a qualification for elders, but not deacons (1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9). Elders / bishops / deacons are described as "husband of one wife," "a man whose children believe," and "men worthy of respect." In addition, in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9, masculine pronouns are used exclusively to refer to elders / bishops / deacons.



The structure of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 makes the "reason" perfectly clear. Verse 13 begins with "for" and gives the "cause" of what Paul stated in verses 11-12. Why should women not teach or have authority over men? Because - "Adam was created first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived." That is the reason. God created Adam first and then created Eve to be a "helper" for Adam. This order of Creation has universal application to humanity in the family (Ephesians 5:22-33) and the church. The fact that Eve was deceived is also given as a reason for women not serving as pastors or having spiritual authority over men. This leads some to believe that women should not teach because they are more easily deceived. That concept is debatable...but if women are more easily deceived, why should they be allowed to teach children (who are easily deceived) and other women (who are supposedly more easily deceived)? That is not what the text says. Women are not to teach or have spiritual authority over men because Eve was deceived. As a result, God has given men the primary teaching authority in the church.



Women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching and helps. Much of the ministry of the church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted to public praying or prophesying (1 Corinthians 11:5), only to having spiritual teaching authority over men. The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians chapter 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the Gospel to the lost (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).



God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3-5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This logically would include women serving as pastors / preachers. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with how God has gifted them.
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:54 pm
okay,to those of you whoo believe that women have no place in the pulpit- explain DEBORAH judge of Israel

Quote:
Deborah
1 After Ehud died, the Israelites once again did evil in the eyes of the LORD. 2 So the LORD sold them into the hands of Jabin, a king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. The commander of his army was Sisera, who lived in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3 Because he had nine hundred iron chariots and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the LORD for help.
4 Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading [a] Israel at that time. 5 She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided. 6 She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "

8 Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."

9 "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh, 10 where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.

11 Now ********* the Kenite had left the other Kenites, the descendants of Hobab, Moses' brother-in-law, [c] and pitched his tent by the great tree in Zaanannim near Kedesh.

12 When they told Sisera that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor, 13 Sisera gathered together his nine hundred iron chariots and all the men with him, from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River.

14 Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men. 15 At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot. 16 But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left.

17 Sisera, however, fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of ********* the Kenite, because there were friendly relations between Jabin king of Hazor and the clan of ********* the Kenite.

18 Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, "Come, my Lord , come right in. Don't be afraid." So he entered her tent, and she put a covering over him.

19 "I'm thirsty," he said. "Please give me some water." She opened a skin of milk, gave him a drink, and covered him up.

20 "Stand in the doorway of the tent," he told her. "If someone comes by and asks you, 'Is anyone here?' say 'No.' "

21 But Jael, ********* wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.

22 Barak came by in pursuit of Sisera, and Jael went out to meet him. "Come," she said, "I will show you the man you're looking for." So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple-dead.

23 On that day God subdued Jabin, the Canaanite king, before the Israelites. 24 And the hand of the Israelites grew stronger and stronger against Jabin, the Canaanite king, until they destroyed him

chapter 5
Quote:
The Song of Deborah
1 On that day Deborah and Barak son of Abinoam sang this song:
2 "When the princes in Israel take the lead,
when the people willingly offer themselves—
praise the LORD!

3 "Hear this, you kings! Listen, you rulers!
I will sing to [a] the LORD, I will sing;
I will make music to [b] the LORD, the God of Israel.

4 "O LORD, when you went out from Seir,
when you marched from the land of Edom,
the earth shook, the heavens poured,
the clouds poured down water.

5 The mountains quaked before the LORD, the One of Sinai,
before the LORD, the God of Israel.

6 "In the days of Shamgar son of Anath,
in the days of Jael, the roads were abandoned;
travelers took to winding paths.

7 Village life [c] in Israel ceased,
ceased until I, [d] Deborah, arose,
arose a mother in Israel.

8 When they chose new gods,
war came to the city gates,
and not a shield or spear was seen
among forty thousand in Israel.

9 My heart is with Israel's princes,
with the willing volunteers among the people.
Praise the LORD!

10 "You who ride on white donkeys,
sitting on your saddle blankets,
and you who walk along the road,
consider 11 the voice of the singers [e] at the watering places.
They recite the righteous acts of the LORD,
the righteous acts of his warriors [f] in Israel.
"Then the people of the LORD
went down to the city gates.

12 'Wake up, wake up, Deborah!
Wake up, wake up, break out in song!
Arise, O Barak!
Take captive your captives, O son of Abinoam.'

13 "Then the men who were left
came down to the nobles;
the people of the LORD
came to me with the mighty.

14 Some came from Ephraim, whose roots were in Amalek;
Benjamin was with the people who followed you.
From Makir captains came down,
from Zebulun those who bear a commander's staff.

15 The princes of Issachar were with Deborah;
yes, Issachar was with Barak,
rushing after him into the valley.
In the districts of Reuben
there was much searching of heart.

16 Why did you stay among the campfires [g]
to hear the whistling for the flocks?
In the districts of Reuben
there was much searching of heart.

17 Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan.
And Dan, why did he linger by the ships?
Asher remained on the coast
and stayed in his coves.

18 The people of Zebulun risked their very lives;
so did Naphtali on the heights of the field.

19 "Kings came, they fought;
the kings of Canaan fought
at Taanach by the waters of Megiddo,
but they carried off no silver, no plunder.

20 From the heavens the stars fought,
from their courses they fought against Sisera.

21 The river Kishon swept them away,
the age-old river, the river Kishon.
March on, my soul; be strong!

22 Then thundered the horses' hoofs—
galloping, galloping go his mighty steeds.

23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the LORD.
'Curse its people bitterly,
because they did not come to help the LORD,
to help the LORD against the mighty.'

24 "Most blessed of women be Jael,
the wife of ********* the Kenite,
most blessed of tent-dwelling women.

25 He asked for water, and she gave him milk;
in a bowl fit for nobles she brought him curdled milk.

26 Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman's hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.

27 At her feet he sank,
he fell; there he lay.
At her feet he sank, he fell;
where he sank, there he fell-dead.

28 "Through the window peered Sisera's mother;
behind the lattice she cried out,
'Why is his chariot so long in coming?
Why is the clatter of his chariots delayed?'

29 The wisest of her ladies answer her;
indeed, she keeps saying to herself,

30 'Are they not finding and dividing the spoils:
a girl or two for each man,
colorful garments as plunder for Sisera,
colorful garments embroidered,
highly embroidered garments for my neck—
all this as plunder?'

31 "So may all your enemies perish, O LORD!
But may they who love you be like the sun
when it rises in its strength."
[b]Then the land had peace forty years.


also if you are going to follow the cultural laws about women, do you also hold to the Jewish feasts: Pesach, Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur. these are all MITZVAS or commands from God  

promised_child

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Metanoeo

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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 12:23 pm
Looks like I have to repost Baptist Holman's point.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Wrote:
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.


Cultural Law? Not according to the context. Rather, its part of the Law of Nature.  
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 5:28 pm
It was not EVEs sin that got humanity kicked out of the Garden Of Eden, it was ADAMS.

Quote:
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 [b]To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you
."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

20 Adam [c] named his wife Eve, [d] because she would become the mother of all the living.



the curse on women was because of her sin (painful labor, menstral pains, the desire to please men). The mans sin was what caused the curse on all of humanity.

Quote:
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
.

no where in this passage does Paul quote any of the prophets or lawgivers who wrote the torah. he costantly uses the word I implying that these are his thoughts. He doesent say " the LORD wants..." He says "I want...." the only scripture he quotes is " you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing" in regards to the elders.  

promised_child

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Metanoeo

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 3:26 pm
promised_child Wrote:
no where in this passage does Paul quote any of the prophets or lawgivers who wrote the torah. he costantly uses the word I implying that these are his thoughts.

Was not Eve deceived and became a sinner?

promised_child Wrote:
He doesent say " the LORD wants..." He says "I want...." the only scripture he quotes is " you shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing" in regards to the elders.

Then was it wrong for Paul to ban women from teaching and having authority over a man? Now, your argument that its only Paul's opinion and not a universal order to the saints. Then, take a look at 1 Corinthians 14:33-34.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 Wrote:
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
 
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 9:19 pm
God chooses whom He will. If He calls a man to a position and the man doesnt respond, He moves to the next person in line, if that person is a woman so be it. there is no sin in a woman preaching as the head of a church, i am done with this thread because you are arguing in circles and i havent the time to dance. :3  

promised_child

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Metanoeo

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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 12:50 pm
promised_child Wrote:
God chooses whom He will. If He calls a man to a position and the man doesnt respond, He moves to the next person in line, if that person is a woman so be it. there is no sin in a woman preaching as the head of a church, i am done with this thread because you are arguing in circles and i havent the time to dance. :3

Now you just running away with your own philosophy rather than holding to what the Bible states. The main purpose of this thread was to show that it's God's will for men to be in authority and have the right to be in the pulpit. It may not be a sin for women to be in authority, however its shameful, unbiblical and goes against the Laws of Nature.  
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:23 pm
Reformed Baptist Wrote:

Was not Eve deceived and became a sinner?

Eve was deceived by The Satan, the father of all lies.
Adam was deceived by Eve, a woman who came from his rib bone.

Really, who sounds like the bigger idiot here?

promised_child Wrote:
Then was it wrong for Paul to ban women from teaching and having authority over a man? Now, your argument that its only Paul's opinion and not a universal order to the saints. Then, take a look at 1 Corinthians 14:33-34.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 Wrote:
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

a) you have still not explained the story of Deborah.
b) you also haven't talked about the point of origen for those commands. In here, Paul certainly does command all the churches to do as he does, but he never says that that is the will of G-d. I'm perfectly content to take advice from Paul, the fallible human, but any command I follow must be from The Lord G-d, the Infallible.  

ioioouiouiouio

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promised_child

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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 6:37 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Reformed Baptist Wrote:

Was not Eve deceived and became a sinner?

Eve was deceived by The Satan, the father of all lies.
Adam was deceived by Eve, a woman who came from his rib bone.

Really, who sounds like the bigger idiot here?

promised_child Wrote:
Then was it wrong for Paul to ban women from teaching and having authority over a man? Now, your argument that its only Paul's opinion and not a universal order to the saints. Then, take a look at 1 Corinthians 14:33-34.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 Wrote:
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

a) you have still not explained the story of Deborah.
b) you also haven't talked about the point of origen for those commands. In here, Paul certainly does command all the churches to do as he does, but he never says that that is the will of G-d. I'm perfectly content to take advice from Paul, the fallible human, but any command I follow must be from The Lord G-d, the Infallible.


cometh, for you i will rejoin the discussion.

Deborah was Judge over ALL of Isreal, if it was un natural for women to be in charge spiritually over men, why would she have been the judge of Isreal, why would God have put her there? By the way, the verse in 1 cor. isnt talking about preaching, notice paul said "if she has a question..." women were yelling questions to their husbands across the room because they couldnt sit next to each other by temple laws. Paul was trying to keep the services from being disrupted. certainly take advice from Paul, just remember that thats all it is , advice.  
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2007 1:34 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Eve was deceived by The Satan, the father of all lies.
Adam was deceived by Eve, a woman who came from his rib bone.

WRONG. Adam was not deceived, read 1 Timothy 2:13-14.

1 Timothy 2:13-14 Wrote:
For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.


Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Really, who sounds like the bigger idiot here?

Thats pretty low.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
a) you have still not explained the story of Deborah.

Story of Deborah is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with the Church.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
b) you also haven't talked about the point of origen for those commands. In here, Paul certainly does command all the churches to do as he does, but he never says that that is the will of G-d. I'm perfectly content to take advice from Paul, the fallible human, but any command I follow must be from The Lord G-d, the Infallible.

Was it Paul's will to write letters to believers of Christ? You could question and ignore Paul's authority (a man called by God to do his Father's will) and question the inspiration of his letters. What do you want me to say? The letters are based on human will rather than God's? The New Testament canon is flawed? I will never say such things.

promised_child Wrote:
Deborah was Judge over ALL of Isreal, if it was un natural for women to be in charge spiritually over men, why would she have been the judge of Isreal, why would God have put her there?

A JUDGE, NOT A RABBI. Big difference promised_child. There is nothing about authority in spiritual matters.

promised_child Wrote:
By the way, the verse in 1 cor. isnt talking about preaching, notice paul said "if she has a question..." women were yelling questions to their husbands across the room because they couldn't sit next to each other by temple laws. Paul was trying to keep the services from being disrupted. certainly take advice from Paul, just remember that that's all it is , advice.

Wow... So far there has been no progress here. You keep ignoring Scripture and context! Let me break down this passage so that you can understand.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 Wrote:
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.


1. As in all the churches of the saints.
2. Women should keep silent in the churches.
3. For they are not permitted to speak.
4. Should be in submission, as the Law also says.
5. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home.
6. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

You say that this whole passage is based on about women asking questions. What Paul is saying that women are to keep silent in Church because are not permitted to speak. They should be in submission. If the women have a question, let them ask a male outside the Church. How do you not get this correctly?

promised_child Wrote:
women were yelling questions to their husbands across the room because they couldn't sit next to each other by temple laws. Paul was trying to keep the services from being disrupted.

That's purely interpretation not based on the context of the passage. You are now going beyond Scripture.  

Metanoeo

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promised_child

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2007 2:00 pm
Reformed Baptist Wrote:
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
a) you have still not explained the story of Deborah.

Story of Deborah is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with the Church.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
b) you also haven't talked about the point of origen for those commands. In here, Paul certainly does command all the churches to do as he does, but he never says that that is the will of G-d. I'm perfectly content to take advice from Paul, the fallible human, but any command I follow must be from The Lord G-d, the Infallible.

Was it Paul's will to write letters to believers of Christ? You could question and ignore Paul's authority (a man called by God to do his Father's will) and question the inspiration of his letters. What do you want me to say? The letters are based on human will rather than God's? The New Testament canon is flawed? I will never say such things.

promised_child Wrote:
Deborah was Judge over ALL of Isreal, if it was un natural for women to be in charge spiritually over men, why would she have been the judge of Isreal, why would God have put her there?

A JUDGE, NOT A RABBI. Big difference promised_child. There is nothing about authority in spiritual matters.

promised_child Wrote:
By the way, the verse in 1 cor. isnt talking about preaching, notice paul said "if she has a question..." women were yelling questions to their husbands across the room because they couldn't sit next to each other by temple laws. Paul was trying to keep the services from being disrupted. certainly take advice from Paul, just remember that that's all it is , advice.

Wow... So far there has been no progress here. You keep ignoring Scripture and context! Let me break down this passage so that you can understand.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 Wrote:
... As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.


1. As in all the churches of the saints.
2. Women should keep silent in the churches.
3. For they are not permitted to speak.
4. Should be in submission, as the Law also says.
5. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home.
6. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

You say that this whole passage is based on about women asking questions. What Paul is saying that women are to keep silent in Church because are not permitted to speak. They should be in submission. If the women have a question, let them ask a male outside the Church. How do you not get this correctly?

promised_child Wrote:
women were yelling questions to their husbands across the room because they couldn't sit next to each other by temple laws. Paul was trying to keep the services from being disrupted.

That's purely interpretation not based on the context of the passage. You are now going beyond Scripture.


ok reformed you really need to stop now, that is what i was told by my teacher of New Testament Survey, who has studdied the NT for her whole christian life. when you have studdied the history behind the NT for 40 years, ill listen to you ok. Deborah is very relivent to the church seeing as how God never changes and He called Deborah. how is Jewish history not relevant to the Church as Christ was a Jew?  
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:50 am
promised_child Wrote:
ok reformed you really need to stop now, that is what i was told by my teacher of New Testament Survey, who has studdied the NT for her whole christian life. when you have studdied the history behind the NT for 40 years, ill listen to you ok.

Just because I'm not a "teacher" doesn't make me wrong. Fine, you don't have to listen to me but don't expect me not to do the same. Although, I decided to listen to those who protest or promote because ignorance is not bliss.

promised_child Wrote:
Deborah is very relivent to the church seeing as how God never changes and He called Deborah. how is Jewish history not relevant to the Church as Christ was a Jew?

Deborah was a Judge of pre-monarchic Israel but it has nothing to do about her having authority over men. A judge does what? Examines and interpret carefully the law to make a lawful decision. Story of Deborah has no link, connection, road map, or hint to the Church. That's why it's irreverent unless you prove me wrong.  

Metanoeo

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promised_child

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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:39 pm
purhaps you should read judges  
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:02 pm
I think that you have to realize the time this was written in. Women were treated as property. I don't think God would support women being treated as such. God can work through anyone so why not a woman?  

GO-YAFFA

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Metanoeo

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:06 pm
GO-YAFFA Wrote:
I think that you have to realize the time this was written in. Women were treated as property. I don't think God would support women being treated as such. God can work through anyone so why not a woman?

Your missing the point. God placed men in authority in marriage and in the Church. No one is saying that women are property, God forbid. The problem you and promised_child present is, "God can do anything, He can even place a women in authority over men, teaching men the Word" but yet wasn't it God himself who put women in submission? Genesis 3:16, "... Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." Would God take back his own words and curse of the Fall? Apostle Paul is simply presenting an old truth to the Gentile Christians.  
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