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Should women be in the pulpit?
Yes
50%
 50%  [ 32 ]
No
31%
 31%  [ 20 ]
Depends
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 63


Monergism

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:15 pm
Its perhaps one of the most avoided controversial subjects in the Christian community today. Women in the Pulpit. Now, why am I creating this topic? Because there needs to be an awaking about how one ought to behave in the household of God from an biblical position. I'm sure everyone one day will come across this subject.

1 Timothy 2:8-15 (ESV) Wrote:
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

1 Timothy 3:14-15 (ESV) Wrote:
I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

Now for some reason, some have compromised this rule with their human emotion or desire. Also, there are some who believe that they don't have to follow and agree with Apostle Paul's position. Well, I got news for you:

2 Timothy 3:16 Wrote:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:33 pm
Quote:
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Scripture is not Divinely authoritative when it says it's not. In this passage, the author sets an example of how he leads his congregation, not a rule.  

ioioouiouiouio

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:22 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Quote:
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Scripture is not Divinely authoritative when it says it's not. In this passage, the author sets an example of how he leads his congregation, not a rule.

I suggest you explain yourself better before you are labeled a heretic here for denying Biblical Inerrancy.

I will repeat my quote.

2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) Wrote:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

Now, the text does not indicate that Paul was creating an example for Timothy. The Apostle Paul even made a reference from the Old Testament why women were banned from teaching or to exercise authority over men, which he repeated again in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 (ESV) Wrote:
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.


Say no to eisegesis! :domo:  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:21 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:
I suggest you explain yourself better before you are labeled a heretic here for denying Biblical Inerrancy.

And you will subsequently get warned by the mods for breaking the rules and guidelines of LtFF.

But, since I'm nice, I will explain.

Notice how, in all other parts of that verse, the author talks in the first person about what he does, as an example to benefit his previous statement. Its a classic literatirical set-up of "this is what to do. This is how I do it.". Thus the example is not Divine Law, merely an example of how to carry out Divine Law.


Quote:
2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) Wrote:
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

Now, the text does not indicate that Paul was creating an example for Timothy.

Which is exactly why we know that it is not an example.

Quote:
The Apostle Paul even made a reference from the Old Testament why women were banned from teaching or to exercise authority over men, which he repeated again in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

True, Paul talks about the law, but, then again, the Law is dead to us. Which leads me to believe that it might be for non-spiritual reasons.  

ioioouiouiouio

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:33 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
But, since I'm nice, I will explain.

Notice how, in all other parts of that verse, the author talks in the first person about what he does, as an example to benefit his previous statement. Its a classic literatirical set-up of "this is what to do. This is how I do it.". Thus the example is not Divine Law, merely an example of how to carry out Divine Law.

Another words, the letter or letters of the Apostle Paul are not suppose to be authoritive in the believers life? Do you believe that the letters are inspired by God?


Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
True, Paul talks about the law, but, then again, the Law is dead to us. Which leads me to believe that it might be for non-spiritual reasons.


Romans 3:31 (ESV) Wrote:
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.


1 Timothy 1:8 (ESV) Wrote:
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,


So far, your arguing against Paul about the Law. That shows me how you are practicing your hermeneutics.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:07 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:

Another words, the letter or letters of the Apostle Paul are not suppose to be authoritive in the believers life? Do you believe that the letters are inspired by God?

Unless they are stated or presented as personal opinion, then yes


Quote:

Romans 3:31 (ESV) Wrote:
Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.


1 Timothy 1:8 (ESV) Wrote:
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,


So far, your arguing against Paul about the Law. That shows me how you are practicing your hermeneutics.

Hey, I'm arguing for Paul. Unless of course I am mistaken an he didn't write Romans. Then I would be arguing for whoever wrote that book.

Romans 7:4 Wrote:
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
.  

ioioouiouiouio

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Arphaxad

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:19 am
Back to the original Topic: Should a woman preach from the pulpit?
No. I believe there was a reason God inspired Paul to write those words. "opinion" or not.

I see no reason why they cannot teach sunday school and the like for children, but in no place in the church should a woman hold position or power over a man. Plain and simple.  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:37 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Baptist Holman Wrote:

Another words, the letter or letters of the Apostle Paul are not suppose to be authoritive in the believers life? Do you believe that the letters are inspired by God?

Unless they are stated or presented as personal opinion, then yes

Explain to me why Paul's "opinions" are not inspired by God?

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Hey, I'm arguing for Paul. Unless of course I am mistaken an he didn't write Romans. Then I would be arguing for whoever wrote that book.

Jesus himself stated,

Matthew 5:17 (ESV) Wrote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

About Romans 7:4. This verse means that Christ's atoning death has released us from the bondage of offering up our own sacrifices.  

Monergism

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:39 pm
Arphaxad Wrote:
Back to the original Topic: Should a woman preach from the pulpit?
No. I believe there was a reason God inspired Paul to write those words. "opinion" or not.

I see no reason why they cannot teach sunday school and the like for children, but in no place in the church should a woman hold position or power over a man. Plain and simple.

Indeed. smilies/icon_3nodding.gif  
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:03 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:
Explain to me why Paul's "opinions" are not inspired by God?

Because if they had equal divine authority, then they would not have been set apart from the rest of the rules in The Bible.

Quote:

Jesus himself stated,

Matthew 5:17 (ESV) Wrote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

About Romans 7:4. This verse means that Christ's atoning death has released us from the bondage of offering up our own sacrifices.

And The Law has been fulfilled. Doesn't mean that we are bound by it.

Quote:
The Ceremonial Law of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy no longer applies. Because of what is written in the book of Galatians and Paul's writings in the second chapter of Colossians, we have clear declarations that the ceremonial law is now in the field of Christian liberty. Paul uses a variety of examples to declare this and lists several portions of the law, following with the declaration that all of it was nailed to the Cross and has been removed. This belief is backed up further by the book of Romans and the speeches at the council of Jerusalem in Acts (Chapter 15), along with selected sayings by Christ concerning ceremonial practice. If we decide to pick and choose portions of the ceremonial law to continue in observance as God's will without clear relation of those parts to the commandments of God referenced in Romans, James and Revelations, then we place ourselves in danger of the ban of Galatians 1:8.


DO I think that there was a purpose to Paul quoting levitical law? Yes. Do I think it had anything to do with Divine Authority? No.

As for my beliefs concerning women in the Pulpit (as my previous posts were solely about refuting your argument, not your position), I do not see a problem with women preaching. I verses such as Philippians 4:2-3 and Romans 16:7 talk about women who were not only Apostles, but actively "contended at [Paul's] side" in spiritual matters. As well, I see the position of preacher to be no more important than any other matter in the Church. G-d calls us all to help, and He gives us all gifts to those ends. Preachers are simply the ones who have the gift of being able to give the Gospel message and, maybe, manage the flock.  

ioioouiouiouio

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Monergism

Monergism's avatar

PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:25 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Baptist Holman Wrote:
Explain to me why Paul's "opinions" are not inspired by God?
Because if they had equal divine authority, then they would not have been set apart from the rest of the rules in The Bible.

Thats your answer? This is what leads you to believe that Paul's statements (so called "opinions") are not inspired by God? It all depends on location? Thats a really weak argument my brother. Prove it to me with Paul's own words in 1st Timothy or any of his letters, that is his own "opinions" are not inspired by God.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
And The Law has been fulfilled. Doesn't mean that we are bound by it.

I agree that the Ceremonial Law no longer applies to us since Christ came to fulfill the requirements of the Ceremonial Law. As the New Testament use of Old Testament laws shows, the moral aspect of the law continues to define proper and improper behavior for Christians. The law is the embodiment of truth that instructs (Rom 2:18-19). It is "holy" and "spiritual," making sin known to us by defining it; therefore, Paul delights in it (Rom 7:7-14,22). The law is good if used properly (1 Tim 1:8 ), and is not opposed to the promises of God (Gal 3:21). Faith does not make the law void, but the Christian establishes the law (Rom 3:31), fulfilling its requirements by walking according to the Spirit (Rom 8:4) through love (Rom 13:10).

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
DO I think that there was a purpose to Paul quoting levitical law? Yes. Do I think it had anything to do with Divine Authority? No.

As for my beliefs concerning women in the Pulpit (as my previous posts were solely about refuting your argument, not your position), I do not see a problem with women preaching. I verses such as Philippians 4:2-3 and Romans 16:7 talk about women who were not only Apostles, but actively "contended at [Paul's] side" in spiritual matters. As well, I see the position of preacher to be no more important than any other matter in the Church. G-d calls us all to help, and He gives us all gifts to those ends. Preachers are simply the ones who have the gift of being able to give the Gospel message and, maybe, manage the flock.

Pretty much you just want to ignore 1 Timothy 2:8-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33-34 and just say "its only Paul's fallible opinions." I'm sorry but thats just unbiblical. (2 Timothy 3:16)  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:34 am
i keep things short and too the point. woman was made from man. so i think what they mean is that we all need to shut-up and listen.  

tarah_titan

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ioioouiouiouio

ioioouiouiouio's avatar

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:44 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:
Thats your answer? This is what leads you to believe that Paul's statements (so called "opinions") are not inspired by God? It all depends on location? Thats a really weak argument my brother. Prove it to me with Paul's own words in 1st Timothy or any of his letters, that is his own "opinions" are not inspired by God.

I've explained exactly how these things are set apart from the Divine Law. When it is stated as opinion, then it must be taken as just that, an opinion. When it is stated as a command, then it is Divine Law.

Quote:

Pretty much you just want to ignore 1 Timothy 2:8-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33-34 and just say "its only Paul's fallible opinions." I'm sorry but thats just unbiblical. (2 Timothy 3:16)

And you're going to ignore the verses in which women were praised for being debaters and teachers? I'm not ignoring those verses. I've heard several rather good reasons as to why they were cultural prohibitions, and not Divine ones.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:22 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Baptist Holman Wrote:
Thats your answer? This is what leads you to believe that Paul's statements (so called "opinions") are not inspired by God? It all depends on location? Thats a really weak argument my brother. Prove it to me with Paul's own words in 1st Timothy or any of his letters, that is his own "opinions" are not inspired by God.

I've explained exactly how these things are set apart from the Divine Law. When it is stated as opinion, then it must be taken as just that, an opinion. When it is stated as a command, then it is Divine Law.

You are claiming that Paul's statements are purely of his own opinions but Paul does NOT confess this in his letter. You are assuming that Paul is addressing his opinions to Timothy on how the Church should behave. Unless you prove to me by text that Paul confesses that he is addressing his own opinions, your argument is based on eisegesis.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Baptist Holman Wrote:

Pretty much you just want to ignore 1 Timothy 2:8-15 and 1 Corinthians 14:33-34 and just say "its only Paul's fallible opinions." I'm sorry but thats just unbiblical. (2 Timothy 3:16)

And you're going to ignore the verses in which women were praised for being debaters and teachers? I'm not ignoring those verses. I've heard several rather good reasons as to why they were cultural prohibitions, and not Divine ones.

Hold on here. Now your assuming the women who Paul mentions were teachers over men in the Church. Again, your argument is based on eisegesis.

Cultural prohibitions theory doesn't follow the text.

1 Corinthians 14:33-34 (ESV) Wrote:
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.
 

Monergism

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ioioouiouiouio

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:48 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:

I've explained exactly how these things are set apart from the Divine Law. When it is stated as opinion, then it must be taken as just that, an opinion. When it is stated as a command, then it is Divine Law.

You are claiming that Paul's statements are purely of his own opinions but Paul does NOT confess this in his letter. You are assuming that Paul is addressing his opinions to Timothy on how the Church should behave. Unless you prove to me by text that Paul confesses that he is addressing his own opinions, your argument is based on eisegesis.[/quote]
Bear with me, as this requires a basic understanding of grammer.
Quote:
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

What this is:A command.
Why this is what it is: Because the imperitive form used in the grammar*, thus making it a sommand.
Quote:
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

What it is:An example.
Why it is what it is: Because of the subjunctive text used**, thus making it an example.

Now, admittedly, I don't believe in the inerrancy of any English translations of the Bible, so I did some research on just what the Koine word used for 'to permit' and came up with this:
"When the verb ‘to permit’ (epitrepsein) is used in the New Testament, it refers to a specific permission in a specific context (Matthew 8,21; Mark 5,13; John 19,38; Acts 21,39-40; 26,1; 27,3; 28,16; 1 Corinthians 16,7; etc.) Moreover, the use of the indicative tense indicates an immediate context. The correct translation, therefore, is: “I am not presently allowing" (Spencer; Hugenberger); “I have decided that for the moment women are not to teach or have authority over men”', furthering my assertion that it is a cultural command.

*Wikipedia on the Imperitive
**Wikipedia on the Subjunctive


Quote:

Hold on here. Now your assuming the women who Paul mentions were teachers over men in the Church. Again, your argument is based on eisegesis.

You're actually telling me that these women were debating with other women? If we follow your line of thinking, then women aren't allowd to speak in church and, therefore, must not have argued alongside Paul at all (as we consistently see Paul going to the temple courts to debate, we can readily assume that this is what he did).

Quote:
As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

The bolded is the first (and largest) hint that it is cultural. If, as you have stated, we are not bound by the Law, than any and all commandments involving the Law (save the Ten Commandments, which, I might point out, aren't even Levitical Law) are spiritually null and void. Paul would know this, and so one must question why he would use such defunct arguments. This leads me to believe that it was done for the benefit of the Church. If they were persecuted for pointless reasons (women's rights) then it would not be good. Plus, Paul lived in a time when women were thought to be physically and mentally inferior to men. They were hardly considered the same species, as far as capacities go.
As well, in that time, churches were sexually segregated. Women sat on one side and men sat on another. Women were not allowed to speak to anyone other than their husbands in church (this was a cultural thing, carried over from secular traditions and mannerisms). Thus, when a woman wanted to ask a question, she would shout over to her husband for him to ask the question. This was causing quite a disturbance, so Paul simply banned women from speaking at all in church.  
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