Debate on Catholics and Christians

[Atarashi No Sensei]

Let me share this with you.

The worst kind of 'religious' flesh is self-righteoussness for it is deadly. Being self-righteouss is being prideful, not humble towards God on your own impure heart, not admitting that we are people of dirt who God has accepted.
Catholics I know are too prideful to admit their sins and to truly repent of it. Therefore, they are not truly saved and born again. You must be born again to enter Heaven! Holiness is what we need. But it is not recieved if you let self-righteoussness take ahold of you.

Philippians 3:3
3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh  

[Berezi]

-Sunset Wahine-

Let me share this with you.

The worst kind of 'religious' flesh is self-righteoussness for it is deadly. Being self-righteouss is being prideful, not humble towards God on your own impure heart, not admitting that we are people of dirt who God has accepted.
Catholics I know are too prideful to admit their sins and to truly repent of it. Therefore, they are not truly saved and born again. You must be born again to enter Heaven! Holiness is what we need. But it is not recieved if you let self-righteoussness take ahold of you.

Philippians 3:3
3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh

Some Catholics are that way, just as there are people in every denomination who are that way. Most likely, there are some in your church who are that way. Does that mean that all the members of it are not saved because of those few who do not really love God? No.

And also, let me share something with you.

Do not think that you are immune to self-righteousness. I know I am not. I mean, honestly, I am having a hard time saying what I'm about to without being self-rigtheous in the process.

Do not point a finger at the Catholics so easily. You have no right to. Here's why: You have implied throughout this entire thread that a Catholic can't be a Christian because they're Catholic, since all the Catholics you know are prideful and nonrepentant.

Who are you to decide who really loves God and who doesn't? When you judge like that, you are taking the place of God. That is self-righteousness. That is more than self-righteousness, it is thinking that you are better than God and more able to judge someone than God is. Before you despise this in others, despise it in yourself.

P.S. I don't mean to make you angry or to hurt you, I mean to make you realize where you are, well, sinning. And if I sound un-loving, it's because there's no nice way to put it.  

[Berezi]

-Sunset Wahine-

SinfulGuillotine

No one is trying to claim that going through religious rituals without putting your heart into it automatically means that you're open to God.

However, the fact that a person may recite a prayer written by someone else does not mean that they're not open to God. Yes, reciting a rosary in an of itself is not enough to get you to Heaven, but that doesn't mean that saying a rosary is a bad thing.

I simply believe that 'earning' God's trust by continuously repeating such a thing and still living a sinful life with no change is false salvation.

That's what he just said, in the bolded parts specifically.

No one is trying to claim that you don't need to repent. We are simply trying to say that a rosary CAN be a way for you to talk to God, just as much as a "freestyle" prayer or a worship song can be. That's all that we've tried to say.  

[Tarrou]

-Sunset Wahine-

The worst kind of 'religious' flesh is self-righteoussness for it is deadly. Being self-righteouss is being prideful, not humble towards God on your own impure heart, not admitting that we are people of dirt who God has accepted.
Catholics I know are too prideful to admit their sins and to truly repent of it. Therefore, they are not truly saved and born again. You must be born again to enter Heaven! Holiness is what we need. But it is not recieved if you let self-righteoussness take ahold of you.

I have not kept as careful and eye on this thread as I should have, it seems. Check yourself, Sunset; I won't have you talking about your fellow Christians being 'unsaved' or prideful. It goes against guild policy and it will not be tolerated. You may criticize, but you may not condemn.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

Berezi

-Sunset Wahine-

Let me share this with you.

The worst kind of 'religious' flesh is self-righteoussness for it is deadly. Being self-righteouss is being prideful, not humble towards God on your own impure heart, not admitting that we are people of dirt who God has accepted.
Catholics I know are too prideful to admit their sins and to truly repent of it. Therefore, they are not truly saved and born again. You must be born again to enter Heaven! Holiness is what we need. But it is not recieved if you let self-righteoussness take ahold of you.

Philippians 3:3
3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh

Some Catholics are that way, just as there are people in every denomination who are that way. Most likely, there are some in your church who are that way. Does that mean that all the members of it are not saved because of those few who do not really love God? No.

And also, let me share something with you.

Do not think that you are immune to self-righteousness. I know I am not. I mean, honestly, I am having a hard time saying what I'm about to without being self-rigtheous in the process.

Do not point a finger at the Catholics so easily. You have no right to. Here's why: You have implied throughout this entire thread that a Catholic can't be a Christian because they're Catholic, since all the Catholics you know are prideful and nonrepentant.

Who are you to decide who really loves God and who doesn't? When you judge like that, you are taking the place of God. That is self-righteousness. That is more than self-righteousness, it is thinking that you are better than God and more able to judge someone than God is. Before you despise this in others, despise it in yourself.

P.S. I don't mean to make you angry or to hurt you, I mean to make you realize where you are, well, sinning. And if I sound un-loving, it's because there's no nice way to put it.

I'm so glad that Berezi got to this before I did, because I would have been a good deal more scathing, and I wouldn't have applogised for it.

Seriously, Sunset. You need to actually read and comprehend what people are saying, because we're going in circles, and I think everyone's patiance is wearing very thin.  

[Atarashi No Sensei]

Why debate when your thinking is totally different from mine? All this time you thought I was 'judging' your religion. I was NOT. You have gotten offended easily, which is obviously pride. Religion involves pride. You've made a big deal of it. I simply put my beliefs and views on it.

This is my view. Religion is a set of practices and traditions that have been passed on to make people appear 'holy'. It is not simply believing in Christ. It is not searching and experiencing Christ. Christ's spirit is not in a religious person.

You have your thinking. I stand firm with mine.

I never wanted to start something.  

[Aetherius Lamia]

Tangled Up In Blue

Catholics are Christians, by definition. There is no debate.

Why do these threads continue to sprout up? sad Why can't people actually read about Catholicism before they begin bashing it?

I recently lost two friends for a number of reasons, one of which being that I'm Catholic and they believe Catholicism inherently interferes with relationships with Christ. evil scream Ignorance is one of the worst things in this world.  

[SinfulGuillotine]

-Sunset Wahine-

Why debate when your thinking is totally different from mine?

Isn't that sort of the point of a debate?

If I (and others) all agreed, there would be no debate.

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All this time you thought I was 'judging' your religion. I was NOT. You have gotten offended easily, which is obviously pride. Religion involves pride. You've made a big deal of it. I simply put my beliefs and views on it.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm not offended by your "views." I'm just rather frustrated that you insist on going in circles when you've been corrected time and time again.

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This is my view.

But your "view" is based on false information and unfair assumptions. I mean, really, you can believe whatever you want. You can believe that the creator of the universe is contained in a mint tin, but just because you believe it doesn't make it true or logical.

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Christ's spirit is not in a religious person.

Why not?

As I've stated (and am getting rather tired of saying), following religious traditions in and of themselves does not make you a good Christian. No one is trying to argue that it does. But following religious traditions because you deeply believe that it is the right path and brings you closer to Christ doesn't mean that you're somehow not a Christian. If you feel that these traditions bring you closer to Christ, then following them makes you a very good Christian.

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You have your thinking. I stand firm with mine.

I never wanted to start something.

I'm sorry, but whenever I see people say things like this, I automatically read into it "I've been defeated but I'm too high on my own ego to concede, so I'm just going to complain that poeple aren't respecting my opinion."  

[Berezi]

-Sunset Wahine-

All this time you thought I was 'judging' your religion. I was NOT.

Go back and look at your terminology, you were judging. I'm not Catholic, in fact I'm Southern Baptist. Even so, without clarifying what you meant, it's pretty much impossible to determine your words as anything but judgemental.

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You have gotten offended easily, which is obviously pride. Religion involves pride. You've made a big deal of it. I simply put my beliefs and views on it.

No, it's not pride. How easily would you be offended if you thought someone was telling you your relationship with Christ wasn't valid because of the denomination or lack thereof you affiliated yourself with?

Personally, I think certain Catholics on this thread deserve a bit of an apology.

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This is my view. Religion is a set of practices and traditions that have been passed on to make people appear 'holy'.

Then you should have stated that from the beginning. You have not used "religion" in this, you have used "Catholicism" and viewed the two as interchangeable. Therefore, your opinion of Catholicism is most likely the same as your opinion of religion. If that's not the case, I advise you to speak up.

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It is not simply believing in Christ.

Of course not. Even the demons do that.

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It is not searching and experiencing Christ.

Who says it can't be a tool for searching for and experiencing Christ? Who says those traditions can't be beneficial, if your heart is in it?

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Christ's spirit is not in a religious person.

Well, you know, Jesus definetly passed down his own set of traditions and practices.

Love thy neighbor as thyself, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, forgive those who trespass against you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, go the extra step to love someone, share the message of the gospel, reach out to the poor and needy, love the people society considers "unloveable", be humble, be someone who serves, pray to God in everything, and more.

Oh, wait a minute! If we do that, we might look holy! And wait, that makes us "religious" like the Pharisees! Oh well, guess I shouldn't do those things, because if I do, the spirit of Christ won't be in me!

Jesus in John 15:9-11

"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

Hmm...let's think about that for a bit. Commands=tradition & practices that, when done alone, only serve to make us look holy. So, then, why does Jesus tell us to keep them? Probably because we keep them not because we want to look holy, but because we love God.

Or, at least, that ought to be the case.

In many churches, I am sure there are people who only try to look holy by acting "Christian", and loving God doesn't come into the picture. The end of Matthew chapter 7 ought to explain how God feels about that in a nutshell.

But that doesn't mean that the traditions are bad. If you practice them without your heart in it, of course it won't be enough. But if your heart is in it, it can be a wonderful way to get to know God better.

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You have your thinking. I stand firm with mine.

Well, no one really came in here expecting to change anyone else's mind.

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I never wanted to start something.

Well, you did. If you're expecting to end it, you should probably apologize for even implying that certain people on this thread don't really love God, or at the very least, don't love Him as much as you do.  

[Tarrou]

-Sunset Wahine-

I never wanted to start something.

Fair enough. The fact remains, however, that you did. Intentionally or not, the way in which you presented some of your views on Catholicism was out of line and, as has been pointed out, offensive. In the future, you should be a bit more respectful of your fellow Christians and refrain from the sort of broad, judgmental pronouncements we've seen here.  

[Atarashi No Sensei]

Wow. That hurt.

If I'm not mistaken, people think I'm ignorant for saying Catholics are not Christians, but I am NOT ignorant. I simply believe it is 'religion'. Being a Christian is not a religion. I don't care what the world calls it.

This is something that is quite hard to discuss online. I am not a religious person, but I am saved. People misuse the word 'Christian' these days. Being a Christian is way more than being religious. Being a Christian is simply living for Christ. Loving Christ with all your heart, mind, and soul. I just never liked how 'religion' made it more complicated. People use religion to earn God's trust, but it doesn't work that way.

Now, an apology? Fine. I am sorry if you were somehow offended.

I am the type of Christian who is hard on my faith and I stand firm with it. I don't fall into other thinking.

Anymore problems?  

[ioioouiouiouio]

-Sunset Wahine-

Being a Christian is not a religion.

Being a Christian is having a religion. Christianity is a religion, same as Islam, Buddhism, or hinduism. Christianity just happens to be the true religion.  

[Berezi]

-Sunset Wahine-

Wow. That hurt.

Sorry. I'm especially sorry because I don't think you understood me at all, which means that you were hurt in vain. I'll come right out and say it and maybe that'll help you to understand me.

Catholicism is stil a branch of Christianity. They acknowledge that Jesus was the son of God, that He rose again, He died for our sins, and that Jesus was God in the flesh. They are still Christians. They might be more liturgical than you like, but they are Christians.

Yes, there are some Catholics that aren't really Christians because they don't love God, but that's the case in every denomination. At that point, it's not a denominational issue, it's an individual heart issue.

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If I'm not mistaken, people think I'm ignorant for saying Catholics are not Christians, but I am NOT ignorant. I simply believe it is 'religion'. Being a Christian is not a religion. I don't care what the world calls it.

I don't think you're ignorant. If I did I wouldn't have addressed you with any respect at all.

I think there is more to being a Christian than just doing things, far more to it. But there is a religious facet to it. And I don't mean the hypocritical "I'm doing it to be holy" version you're talking about. I mean the commands that God lays out at face value.

And yes, you're right that Christianity is more than a religion. It isn't just us doing something to look holy. It's us loving God because God loved us first and accepting His redemption. One of the ways that manifests itself - keeping God's commands.

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This is something that is quite hard to discuss online.

It always is.

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I am not a religious person, but I am saved. People misuse the word 'Christian' these days.

I know, and it's quite frustrating. I hate to see the name that is supposed to be equated with the good news being used in a negative way. That hurts to the core.

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Being a Christian is way more than being religious. Being a Christian is simply living for Christ.

Of course it is. But just how are you living for Christ? There is a set of rules you follow - i.e. the Bible. A religion is simply a set of rules. Yes, being a Christian is way more than being religious, but in the sense of being one that follows a certain set of rules, that is also a part of being a Christian. Our rules just happen to be laid out by God.

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Loving Christ with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Do you think Catholics don't? Because honestly, if you feel that there is not a single Catholic out there that loves Christ with all their heart, mind, and soul, well...you are being extremely unloving to your brothers and sisters in Christ by denying that they do love God. Or have you forgotten Nicodemus? He was a Pharisee, but he eventually turned his heart to God. He still remained a Pharisee. There was nothing inherently evil about being a Pharisee, but their hearts had become corrupt. Saul/Paul was a Pharisee. Look how many books he wrote telling us and reminding us about the rules that God would have us live by. His heart changed, but he still kept a truckload of rules because he loved God.

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I just never liked how 'religion' made it more complicated. People use religion to earn God's trust, but it doesn't work that way.

Well, honestly, I'm not a big fan of it either. Most of my family is Eastern Orthodox (which has differences from Catholicism but is pretty similar). I've seen so many people become disillusioned with God in there, thinking God is nothing more than a formaility. HOWEVER, I've also seen many people in my family that love Jesus with all of their hearts, minds, and souls, and did everything they could to teach me about Jesus so that I could love Him as well.

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I am the type of Christian who is hard on my faith and I stand firm with it. I don't fall into other thinking.

Which is great. It's great to have a firm stance on things. I know that if I didn't have as firm a faith in God as I do now, I would be in some major trouble.

Being firm in your faith doesn't mean that you shouldn't give what others say a decent thought, especially when other Christians are the ones that are talking to you. It's not like I'm trying to derail you from your faith. On the contrary I want you to see that people on the more liturgical side of Christianity really are Christians in general. That will probably help you to love people that generally are scorned by those who hold the view that you do.  

[Atarashi No Sensei]

Berezi

-Sunset Wahine-

Wow. That hurt.

Sorry. I'm especially sorry because I don't think you understood me at all, which means that you were hurt in vain. I'll come right out and say it and maybe that'll help you to understand me.

Catholicism is stil a branch of Christianity. They acknowledge that Jesus was the son of God, that He rose again, He died for our sins, and that Jesus was God in the flesh. They are still Christians. They might be more liturgical than you like, but they are Christians.

Yes, there are some Catholics that aren't really Christians because they don't love God, but that's the case in every denomination. At that point, it's not a denominational issue, it's an individual heart issue.

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If I'm not mistaken, people think I'm ignorant for saying Catholics are not Christians, but I am NOT ignorant. I simply believe it is 'religion'. Being a Christian is not a religion. I don't care what the world calls it.

I don't think you're ignorant. If I did I wouldn't have addressed you with any respect at all.

I think there is more to being a Christian than just doing things, far more to it. But there is a religious facet to it. And I don't mean the hypocritical "I'm doing it to be holy" version you're talking about. I mean the commands that God lays out at face value.

And yes, you're right that Christianity is more than a religion. It isn't just us doing something to look holy. It's us loving God because God loved us first and accepting His redemption. One of the ways that manifests itself - keeping God's commands.

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This is something that is quite hard to discuss online.

It always is.

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I am not a religious person, but I am saved. People misuse the word 'Christian' these days.

I know, and it's quite frustrating. I hate to see the name that is supposed to be equated with the good news being used in a negative way. That hurts to the core.

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Being a Christian is way more than being religious. Being a Christian is simply living for Christ.

Of course it is. But just how are you living for Christ? There is a set of rules you follow - i.e. the Bible. A religion is simply a set of rules. Yes, being a Christian is way more than being religious, but in the sense of being one that follows a certain set of rules, that is also a part of being a Christian. Our rules just happen to be laid out by God.

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Loving Christ with all your heart, mind, and soul.

Do you think Catholics don't? Because honestly, if you feel that there is not a single Catholic out there that loves Christ with all their heart, mind, and soul, well...you are being extremely unloving to your brothers and sisters in Christ by denying that they do love God. Or have you forgotten Nicodemus? He was a Pharisee, but he eventually turned his heart to God. He still remained a Pharisee. There was nothing inherently evil about being a Pharisee, but their hearts had become corrupt. Saul/Paul was a Pharisee. Look how many books he wrote telling us and reminding us about the rules that God would have us live by. His heart changed, but he still kept a truckload of rules because he loved God.

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I just never liked how 'religion' made it more complicated. People use religion to earn God's trust, but it doesn't work that way.

Well, honestly, I'm not a big fan of it either. Most of my family is Eastern Orthodox (which has differences from Catholicism but is pretty similar). I've seen so many people become disillusioned with God in there, thinking God is nothing more than a formaility. HOWEVER, I've also seen many people in my family that love Jesus with all of their hearts, minds, and souls, and did everything they could to teach me about Jesus so that I could love Him as well.

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I am the type of Christian who is hard on my faith and I stand firm with it. I don't fall into other thinking.

Which is great. It's great to have a firm stance on things. I know that if I didn't have as firm a faith in God as I do now, I would be in some major trouble.

Being firm in your faith doesn't mean that you shouldn't give what others say a decent thought, especially when other Christians are the ones that are talking to you. It's not like I'm trying to derail you from your faith. On the contrary I want you to see that people on the more liturgical side of Christianity really are Christians in general. That will probably help you to love people that generally are scorned by those who hold the view that you do.

You're forgetting something. I don't necessary believe Catholicism is the same as being saved. Period.

No matter how the world defines being a Christian, it is NOT a religion. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP. That is what I believe. Religion is nothing to me. Nothing at all.

What I say about my faith is never meant to offend anyone, if that's what you're thinking.  

[Atarashi No Sensei]

Cometh The Inquisitor

-Sunset Wahine-

Being a Christian is not a religion.

Being a Christian is having a religion. Christianity is a religion, same as Islam, Buddhism, or hinduism. Christianity just happens to be the true religion.

I hate to call my salvation a religion. Did you read all I said in my post? I don't care how the world defines being a Christian. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP.