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Kittey-chan

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:01 pm
OMG its Luisito Wrote:
that_fairy Wrote:
One, the bible states that there is only one (1) person who has not sinned: Jesus. I would assume this includes all people regardless of age.

Just because you have a soul and a spirit does not mean that you have the ability to willfully do wrong. Sinning is making a conscious decision to do something wrong (like killing, stealing, lying, etc). I believe that when it says that Jesus was the only person who had not sinned it is speaking in regard to the people with the ability to sin. Babies and people with undeveloped brains do not have the ability to sin, because even if they do something wrong, they do not realize it.

You may believe what you wish. However, the bible does not, to the best of my knowledge, state that there is an age where people become capable of sinning. Also to the best of my knowledge, the bible does not state that it is not a sin to do something if you don't know its a sin. I again reference Luke 12:47-48 , which I quoted in my prior post.
Quote:
Luke 12:48 But the one who did not know his master’s will 3 and did things worthy of punishment 4 will receive a light beating.

I would take the fact that it speaks of a person who does not know what they are supposed to do yet is still punished as an indication that even a person who does not know that they are sinning can still sin. So I would say that perhaps people don't need to know the difference between right and wrong to do something wrong.


OMG its Luisito Wrote:

Everyone (unless you have some sort of mental problem) develops the ability to tell what is right or wrong. You don't need religion to understand that hurting or killing someone else is not right. Every one has a soul and spirit. People often confuse one or the other for their conscience.

See above.

that_fairy Wrote:
Three, sinning doesn't require doing something. Not doing something, such as not telling someone they are eating poison berries, could also be a sin.

The difference here is that you would be allowing something bad to happen, which would technically be doing something.[/quote]
Well, for this specific example, that is true. However, it was merely one example, and there are many. There are numerous commands in the bible that command you *to* do something rather than *not* to do something.
As per my above comment, being ignorant of a sin does not make it stop being a sin.
With that, I will reiterate, just so that it is clear. I personally feel that infants and unborn children go to heaven. I have no good reason to believe that, other than a general, I think that's the sort of thing that a good God would do. *grins*  
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:09 pm
that_fairy Wrote:
You may believe what you wish. However, the bible does not, to the best of my knowledge, state that there is an age where people become capable of sinning. Also to the best of my knowledge, the bible does not state that it is not a sin to do something if you don't know its a sin. I again reference Luke 12:47-48 , which I quoted in my prior post.

You totally and completely misinterpreted what I said. I'm not talking about ignorance. I'm talking about babies and people who do not have an advanced enough brain to know what they're doing. So ok. Babies can't talk, walk, or articulate many things, except some basic stuff like hunger, discomfort, happiness, etc. So you honestly think that in their underdeveloped brains they're thinking about sinful things? Pssh the thoughts that are probably most prominant in their minds are "when do I get fed again?", "I need to poop", and "I want my mama".

And not only babies, but what about someone who is born pretty much braindead? If you can't think, you can't possibly sin.

that_fairy Wrote:

I would take the fact that it speaks of a person who does not know what they are supposed to do yet is still punished as an indication that even a person who does not know that they are sinning can still sin. So I would say that perhaps people don't need to know the difference between right and wrong to do something wrong.

First of all, everyone inherently learns the difference between right and wrong. Not every single country and civilization on the planet is based on Christianity (as is the US) but still almost every single ones recognizes that killing others unjustly, stealing, etc as wrong. (btw I don't believe in cultural relativity)This means that even those who are not
Christian still learn what's naturally right and wrong. Remember that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. Human kind has the ability to know right from wrong because of Adam and Eve, or else we'd all still be walking around naked, we wouldn't have to work for survival, and women would give painless births. Babies and people with minds like that of a baby, however, cannot rationalize what it is that they're doing, therefore, they cannot sin yet.

Second, the verse that you quoted (Luke 12:48 ) isn't solely talking about people "who do not know that they are sinning can still sin". It's a whole passage talking about the coming of Christ, and that those who know about him and don't prepare will suffer more than those who didn't know about him.


that_fairy Wrote:
See above.

See above.

that_fairy Wrote:
As per my above comment, being ignorant of a sin does not make it stop being a sin.

Ah but this is where it gets interesting. Don't you suppose that you would have to have the ability to think rationally to be ignorant about something? Babies can't lie. They can't because they can't speak. When babies do things like taking things from other babies/people, it can't count as stealing, because babies do not understand the concept ownership. They don't know that something belongs to someone. They just see something that catches their attention, and just take. I'm just trying to make you understand that babies do not have the same thinking/reasoning power as us and kids older than them, so how can they sin?  

Hello Luisito

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Zher

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:10 pm
The only thing that keeps you from heaven is the denial of christ... so yes, heaven with them... i mean, god is not cruel to send a child that never had a chance to hell...  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:57 am
Zher Wrote:
The only thing that keeps you from heaven is the denial of christ... so yes, heaven with them... i mean, god is not cruel to send a child that never had a chance to hell...

Heh. If the only thing that keeps you from heaven is the denial of Christ, why bother to convert people?
Just a thought. smilies/icon_3nodding.gif  

Kittey-chan

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:44 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
fantrl Wrote:
Original sin. Adam screwed it up for us all.

The original sin has/had no effect on humanity as a whole. It killed Eve and Adam, but not us.

Before I post my disagreement. I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Could you explain to me what is original sin?  
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:52 pm
starry_mist Wrote:
where do they go i don't think they should go to hell but how do they get to heaven if they never had a chance to even live?



Abortioned babies, in my humble opinion, go straight to heaven once they're murdered.

They haven't even entered into Earth yet, so there hasn't been a chance for them to do wrong. God simply allowed them to come here to do their short-lived job that, indeed, will carry on with the mother and doctor who did it as another sin, and come back to heaven to live in peace with the Lord.
 

Foxxtrot

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Rei003

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:20 am
I would just like to know how a baby sins? When they are born, they know the knowlege of eatting, sleeping, pain, feeling love, etc...but they are way too young to know what is right from wrong...all they are doing is getting netured...what I'm trying to say is...I don't think babies sin, I think they go to heaven if they die  
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:51 pm
The great Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon has given great explanation about this issue.

Please take time to read. This is the short version.

Charles H. Spurgeon Sermon: Infant Salvation Wrote:

If God hath taken it away from you in its infant days. You never heard its declaration of faith—it was not capable of such a thing—it was not baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ, not buried with him in baptism; it was not capable of giving that "answer of a good conscience towards God;"... that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest.

Some ground the idea of the eternal blessedness of the infant upon its innocence. We do no such thing; we believe that the infant fell in the first Adam, "for in Adam all died." All Adam's posterity, whether infant or adult, were represented by him—he stood for them all, and when he fell, he fell for them all. There was no exception made at all in the covenant of works made with Adam as to infants dying; and inasmuch as they were included in Adam, though they have not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, they have original guilt. They are "born in sin and steepen in iniquity; in sin do their mothers conceive them;" so saith David of himself, and (by inference) of the whole human race. If they be saved, we believe it is not because of any natural innocence. They enter heaven by the very same way that we do; they are receives in the name of Christ. "Other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid," and I do not think nor dream that there is a different foundation for the infant than that which is laid for the adult.

Is it far from our minds to believe that infants go to heaven through baptism—not to say, in the first place, that we believe infant sprinkling to be a human and carnal invention, an addition to the Word of God, and therefore wicked and injurious. When we reflect that it is rendered into some thing worse than superstition by being accompanied with falsehood, when children are taught that in their baptism they are made the children of God, and inheritors of the kingdom of heaven, which is as base a lie as ever was forged in hell, or uttered beneath the copes of heaven, our spirit sinks at the fearful errors which have crept into the Church, through the one little door of infant sprinkling. No; children are not saved because they are baptized, for if so, the Puseyite is quite right in refusing to bury our little children if they die unbaptized. Yes, the barbarian is quite right in driving the parent, as he does to this day, from the church yard of his own national Church, and telling him that his child may rot above-ground, and that it shall not be buried except it be at the dead of night, because the superstitious drops have never fallen on its brow. He is right enough if that baptism made the child a Christian, and if that child could not be saved without it. But a thing so revolting to feeling, is at once to be eschewed by Christian men. The child is saved, if snatched away by death as we are, on another ground than that of rites and ceremonies, and the will of man.

On what ground, then, do we believe the child to be saved? We believe it to be as lost on the rest of mankind, and as truly condemned by the sentence which said, "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It is saved because it is elect. In the compass of election, in the Lamb's Book of Life, we believe there shall be found written millions of souls who are only shown on earth, and then stretch their wings for heaven. They are saved, too, because they were redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. He who shed his blood for all his people, bought them with the same price with which he redeemed their parents, and therefore are they saved because Christ was sponsor for them, and suffered in their room and stead. They are saved, again not without regeneration, for, "except a man"—the text does not mean an adult man but a person, a being of the human race—"except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." No doubt, in some mysterious manner the Spirit of God regenerates the infant soul, and it enters into glory made meet to be a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light. That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the "rest which remaineth for the people of God." By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter.


Sermon can be found here. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm  

Monergism

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scieran

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:38 pm
Didn't Augustine write that the cries of infants was proof of original sin as, if they were sinless, they would be silent?

But, being serious, I'd say they go to heaven. How can one sin before knowing what sin is? Did Adam and Eve sin before they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge or after?

Psalms 27:10 For my father and my mother have forsaken me, but the Lord will take me up.  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:43 pm
Baptist Holman Wrote:
The great Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon has given great explanation about this issue.


If this guy is Baptist, then why does this sound really Calvinist?  

ioioouiouiouio

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Monergism

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:22 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Baptist Holman Wrote:
The great Baptist preacher, Charles Spurgeon has given great explanation about this issue.

If this guy is Baptist, then why does this sound really Calvinist?

Yes, Charles Spurgeon is a Reformer (or Calvinist).

Baptist: a member or adherent of an Protestant denomination marked by congregational polity (Congregationalism) and baptism by immersion of believers only (Credobaptism).  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:48 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
fantrl Wrote:
Original sin. Adam screwed it up for us all.

The original sin has/had no effect on humanity as a whole. It killed Eve and Adam, but not us.

I do not disagree, but it sounds like you're saying that it is possible for me to choose perfection (since sin is a choice). How could anyone choose perfection? What would this look like? (Jesus, obviously....) The only way for me to be perfect was if I became Jesus.  

yzz_90

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SubLYMONal Messaging

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:25 pm
I learned in sunday school, by a very good teacher, that god takes the innocent.

The young children who had never been exposed to god, or other views, or understood them.

They go to heaven.
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:43 pm
well i believe that it is stated in the bible up to the age like 6 or mabe your not held accountable until that age therefore the aborted babies will go to heaven i indeed the bible is true to its word i mean it was man written  

The Tiger Of Judah

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snowfox_11

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:14 pm
I do believe they go to Heaven.I do know that in the Bible it says that all men have sinned even at birth.Well it goes something like that.But I think that since they didn't have a chance to except the Lord that they go to heaven.

We will find out when we go to heaven anyways.
 
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