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Kittey-chan

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:49 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
that_fairy Wrote:

Okay, let's pretend for a moment that it does, or could. If it *did* exist, would it be wrong?

Yes. It's idolatry. To seek empowerment through means not of God is a sin.

Is seeking empowerment in any way just wrong, or just psychically?
For example, is body building or learning self-defence wrong?  
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:19 am
that_fairy Wrote:

Is seeking empowerment in any way just wrong, or just psychically?
For example, is body building or learning self-defence wrong?

That's not empowering, that's enabling.  

ioioouiouiouio

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zz1000zz

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:26 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
that_fairy Wrote:

Is seeking empowerment in any way just wrong, or just psychically?
For example, is body building or learning self-defence wrong?

That's not empowering, that's enabling.


Just how did you draw that distinction? Right or wrong, simply stating something does little to prove a point. I only ask because the difference escapes me.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Yes. Anyone who believes in Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior is a Christian.

A more proper question would be 'is psychic activity biblical?' and the answer to that would be no. Considering that both types of psychic activity (spirit mediums and those who are simply 'well attuned' to the world) bypass God as a means of empowerment, psychic activity would be tantamount to idolatry.


This bothers me. First, to clarify, for this topic i am going to assume psychic abilities do exist, as it seems appropriate.

With that in mind, i see no reason a psychic could not follow God's will. I see no reason a "spirit medium" or a "well attuned" would inherently bypass God. If we accept these abilities as real, and we also accept God is real, God is inherently responsible for these abilities. Therefore, if a psychic attributed his/her abilities to God, it would be no different than an athlete attributing his skills at sports to God.

Indeed, a psychic who claimed the power came from another source would be the same as an atheist who did not attribute his ability to play basketball to God. Or an atheist who did not attribute his ability to walk to God. So long as we accept psychic abilities as being real, they should be treated no differently than any other ability.

Quote:
Considering that both types of psychic activity (spirit mediums and those who are simply 'well attuned' to the world) bypass God as a means of empowerment


Simply choosing to work on an ability does not bypass God. You have offered no reasoning to show otherwise, and i cannot think of any that would do so. So long as God gives all things, i can see no reason to differentiate between "physical" and "psychic" abilities.

(Of course, if one attributes psychic abilities to oneself and not God, that is clearly not following God's will.)  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:27 pm
zz1000zz Wrote:
Just how did you draw that distinction? Right or wrong, simply stating something does little to prove a point. I only ask because the difference escapes me.

To use the examples given:
Body-building and self-defense are simply enabling your body/mind to do what it already could. It is a natural conditioning of your physical self to achieve something better. Psychic abilities empower you supernaturally, in ways that are supposed to be left to God.

Quote:
With that in mind, i see no reason a psychic could not follow God's will. I see no reason a "spirit medium" or a "well attuned" would inherently bypass God.

Here's a question: Why would you want to talk to the dead anyways? What possible purpose could it serve that could not be fufilled better by God. It's idolatry to, when faced with a choice between going to God and going to something else, choose the latter.

Quote:
If we accept these abilities as real, and we also accept God is real, God is inherently responsible for these abilities. Therefore, if a psychic attributed his/her abilities to God, it would be no different than an athlete attributing his skills at sports to God.

And no different to an AIDs victim attributing their disease to God. Or a rape victim attributing their rape to God.

That thing's happen in no way means that God condones it.


Quote:
Indeed, a psychic who claimed the power came from another source would be the same as an atheist who did not attribute his ability to play basketball to God. Or an atheist who did not attribute his ability to walk to God. So long as we accept psychic abilities as being real, they should be treated no differently than any other ability.

Wrong. Physical abilites are natural. Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occour naturally. Therefore, they must be considered part of the Spiritual realm of existence, A.K.A. God's realm. To go to the dead for answers instead of God is idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst, and a sin either way.

Quote:
Simply choosing to work on an ability does not bypass God. You have offered no reasoning to show otherwise, and i cannot think of any that would do so. So long as God gives all things, i can see no reason to differentiate between "physical" and "psychic" abilities.

See above.

Quote:
(Of course, if one attributes psychic abilities to oneself and not God, that is clearly not following God's will.)

God gave me the ability to do alot of things. That you can in no way means you should. You can't justify an action based off of your ability to do it. Especially not when Scripture disagrees with you.  

ioioouiouiouio

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zz1000zz

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:41 pm
The crux of your position, and our point of disagreement is this.

Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
Wrong. Physical abilites are natural. Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occour naturally. Therefore, they must be considered part of the Spiritual realm of existence, A.K.A. God's realm. To go to the dead for answers instead of God is idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst, and a sin either way.


For all the times you say this, you do not offer any reasoning to support it. You say, "Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occur naturally." Says who? How are those abilities different from any other? Is it because they are not explained by science? How do we know science will not be able to explain them in the future?

Or is it just that they are foreign to you, something unknown? For all of the reasoning you have offered, one could conclude radios are evil as they are supernatural, because they sure were not a part of nature a few centuries ago.

It is difficult to respond to claims when they are made without support.  
PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:18 pm
zz1000zz Wrote:
For all the times you say this, you do not offer any reasoning to support it. You say, "Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occur naturally." Says who? How are those abilities different from any other? Is it because they are not explained by science? How do we know science will not be able to explain them in the future?

How do we know that Science will not be able to dispove God in the future?


Quote:
Or is it just that they are foreign to you, something unknown? For all of the reasoning you have offered, one could conclude radios are evil as they are supernatural, because they sure were not a part of nature a few centuries ago.

I fail to see anywhere in any of my posts where you could come to the conclusion that psychic activity is 'foreign' to me.  

ioioouiouiouio

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zz1000zz

zz1000zz's avatar

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:55 pm
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
zz1000zz Wrote:
For all the times you say this, you do not offer any reasoning to support it. You say, "Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occur naturally." Says who? How are those abilities different from any other? Is it because they are not explained by science? How do we know science will not be able to explain them in the future?

How do we know that Science will not be able to dispove God in the future?


God as a concept is independent of science. Science has the capability to disprove things stated in holy texts, but only insofar as they pertain to the physical realm. God exists outside the physical realm putting him outside the realm of science.


Quote:
Quote:
Or is it just that they are foreign to you, something unknown? For all of the reasoning you have offered, one could conclude radios are evil as they are supernatural, because they sure were not a part of nature a few centuries ago.

I fail to see anywhere in any of my posts where you could come to the conclusion that psychic activity is 'foreign' to me.


Which is why i asked if it was foreign to you, rather than stated such as a fact.

Now then, can we get back to the actual discussion?  
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:09 pm
zz1000zz Wrote:
God as a concept is independent of science. Science has the capability to disprove things stated in holy texts, but only insofar as they pertain to the physical realm. God exists outside the physical realm putting him outside the realm of science.

God is a concept independent of science today. In the future we might be able to prove God false.


Quote:

Which is why i asked if it was foreign to you, rather than stated such as a fact.

No, you asked if all things foreign to me were what I considered evil, while talking about the subject of psychic activity, thusly more than implying that psychc activity was foreign to me.

And the answer would be, no. While I have never actually experianced psychic activity (mostly because it doesn't exist), I know a fair bit about it.  

ioioouiouiouio

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Kittey-chan

Kittey-chan's avatar

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:25 am
[quote="Cometh The Inquisitor"]
While I have never actually experianced psychic activity (mostly because it doesn't exist), I know a fair bit about it.[/quote]
I find it difficult to believe you know a fair bit about it if you have never experienced it. That seems to me like saying that while you have never heard it, you know a fair bit about music.
I would think that book knowledge is a poor substitute for experience when it comes to expertise in this area.

In addition, saying it doesnt exist for 100% sure simply because *You* personally haven't experienced it seems to me as foolish as athiests saying that God doesn't exist because they haven't met him.
Much as many people have experienced God, and because of direct experience will testify that He does exist, many people have experienced psychic activity.

Lastly- I would wonder why the bible would talk so much about psychic things if they didn't exist. Are there many other examples of impossible things that the bible talks about? Because I always kinda figured the bible told the truth. Call me crazy.  
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:59 pm
that_fairy Wrote:

I find it difficult to believe you know a fair bit about it if you have never experienced it.

I have never been murdered, though I happen to know that, for every 100,000 people in the State of California, there are an average of 6.7 homicides. It is quite possible

Quote:
That seems to me like saying that while you have never heard it, you know a fair bit about music.
See above. Personal experiance in a matter does not equate to knowledge in or about that subject, and vice-verse.

Quote:
In addition, saying it doesnt exist for 100% sure simply because *You* personally haven't experienced it seems to me as foolish as athiests saying that God doesn't exist because they haven't met him.

You can't argue God, you can only argue the probability of God. I, personally believe the probability of God to be high enough to warrent belief. Atheists don't.

Quote:
Much as many people have experienced God, and because of direct experience will testify that He does exist, many people have experienced psychic activity.


Quote:
Lastly- I would wonder why the bible would talk so much about psychic things if they didn't exist. Are there many other examples of impossible things that the bible talks about? Because I always kinda figured the bible told the truth. Call me crazy.

The bible never mentions psychic activity. Not once. Don't believe me? Here it is. What the bible does mention is mediums, witches, and the tricks of The Satan. And those are always condemned as bad.  

ioioouiouiouio

ioioouiouiouio's avatar


zz1000zz

zz1000zz's avatar

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:24 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
zz1000zz Wrote:
God as a concept is independent of science. Science has the capability to disprove things stated in holy texts, but only insofar as they pertain to the physical realm. God exists outside the physical realm putting him outside the realm of science.

God is a concept independent of science today. In the future we might be able to prove God false.


No, we may not.


Quote:
Quote:

Which is why i asked if it was foreign to you, rather than stated such as a fact.

No, you asked if all things foreign to me were what I considered evil, while talking about the subject of psychic activity, thusly more than implying that psychc activity was foreign to me.


Quote:
Or is it just that they are foreign to you, something unknown? For all of the reasoning you have offered, one could conclude radios are evil as they are supernatural, because they sure were not a part of nature a few centuries ago.


I asked if psychic activity was foreign to you, not if you considered foreign things evil. I have no idea what confused you, but no.

Now then, would you mind working on the actual discussion/topic? You have yet to respond to me saying you have no reasoning to support what you say. Instead of responding to my points you have only attempted to divert the conversation.

You claim being a psychic is a sin, now please defend or retract your claim.  
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:45 pm
zz1000zz Wrote:
No, we may not.

How do you know?

Quote:
You claim being a psychic is a sin, now please defend or retract your claim.

Actually I said that psychic activity doesn't exist, so, technically, it's a sin by proxy, since it's self-delusion.

But, for sake of discussion, even if it did exist, then it would be idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst.  

ioioouiouiouio

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zz1000zz

zz1000zz's avatar

PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:22 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
zz1000zz Wrote:
No, we may not.

How do you know?


Science and God belong to different realms of thought. Science is logic driven while God (religion) is faith driven. Until a method of combining the two is presented, there is no reason to believe science could ever disprove God.

Quote:
Quote:
You claim being a psychic is a sin, now please defend or retract your claim.
But, for sake of discussion, even if it did exist, then it would be idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst.


...

Nevermind then. I have tried several times now to get you to explain why this would be true, and you have not. I contradicted the only reasoning you offered, and you did not respond. At this point, i am finished.  
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:22 pm
zz1000zz Wrote:
Science and God belong to different realms of thought. Science is logic driven while God (religion) is faith driven. Until a method of combining the two is presented, there is no reason to believe science could ever disprove God.

But you admit that it might be possible in the future to prove that God doesn't exist. Therefore, we must act under that assumption.

Quote:
Nevermind then. I have tried several times now to get you to explain why this would be true, and you have not.

Then what about here:
Me Wrote:
To seek empowerment through means not of God is a sin.

And here:
Me again Wrote:
Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occour naturally. Therefore, they must be considered part of the Spiritual realm of existence, A.K.A. God's realm. To go to the dead for answers instead of God is idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst, and a sin either way.

I could find more if you like, but my little mini-thread at the bottom of the page only goes back so far.
Quote:
I contradicted the only reasoning you offered, and you did not respond. At this point, i am finished.

No, you didn't. You gave half-assed defenses which you are now yourself saying are wrong*.


*Yes, you are. That is the point of my 'God could be disproven in the future' bit.  

ioioouiouiouio

ioioouiouiouio's avatar


zz1000zz

zz1000zz's avatar

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:15 am
Cometh The Inquisitor Wrote:
zz1000zz Wrote:
Science and God belong to different realms of thought. Science is logic driven while God (religion) is faith driven. Until a method of combining the two is presented, there is no reason to believe science could ever disprove God.

But you admit that it might be possible in the future to prove that God doesn't exist. Therefore, we must act under that assumption.


Sure, in the future it may be possible for a giant noodle monster to leap from my brain. I suppose we must accept science may one day prove that too.[/sarcasm]

Now for a response without sarcasm. I do not admit the possibility you claim i admit. Science claims a method of combining those two realms of thought is impossible, so unless something contradicts this it must be viewed as impossible. The only "possibility" of combining the two stems from the lack of adequate linguistic properties.

It is greatly akin to saying some day we may be able to prove a triangle can be a square. These two are completely incompatible, and unless some method of showing otherwise can be presented, there is no reason to believe they are the same.

Quote:
Quote:
Nevermind then. I have tried several times now to get you to explain why this would be true, and you have not.

Then what about here:
Me Wrote:
To seek empowerment through means not of God is a sin.

And here:
Me again Wrote:
Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occour naturally. Therefore, they must be considered part of the Spiritual realm of existence, A.K.A. God's realm. To go to the dead for answers instead of God is idolatry at best, witchcraft at worst, and a sin either way.

I could find more if you like, but my little mini-thread at the bottom of the page only goes back so far.


If you looked for those posts, you should have seen where i responded. I have asked you many times to explain what makes psychic powers different from other attributes/abilities. This has been the only point of disagreement between us (at least that is directly tied to the topic), and you have never responded:

"For all the times you say this, you do not offer any reasoning to support it. You say, "Psychic/medium abilities are supernatural, as in they don't occur naturally." Says who? How are those abilities different from any other? Is it because they are not explained by science? How do we know science will not be able to explain them in the future?"

Quote:
Quote:
I contradicted the only reasoning you offered, and you did not respond. At this point, i am finished.

No, you didn't. You gave half-assed defenses which you are now yourself saying are wrong*.


*Yes, you are. That is the point of my 'God could be disproven in the future' bit.


My "half-assed defenses"? I offered only one, so it should not be plural. More importantly, it was not refuted. My "defense" is that you have not done anything to prove your point. You have offered no distinction between physical and psychic abilities, save to arbitrarily declare psychic abilities as supernatural.

As for the science and God aspect. You have done nothing to show science could ever prove/disprove God's existence. I need offer nothing for any point i have made, as i do not have the burden of proof.

Quote:
I could find more if you like, but my little mini-thread at the bottom of the page only goes back so far.


Just a matter of interest to me. Your "mini-thread" at the bottom of the page would have shown every post i made in this topic, so i am not sure how you could "find more." So, yes i would like you to find more, just because you said you could.  
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