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 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:39 pm
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Saoszuc Okay, some topics which require immediate discussion RTFN.
Aeris's death. I posit that she was the most despicable character, and I'm glad that her sacrifice was necessary. I also hold that it was necessary, or the quest would have been for naught.
Theories regarding Jenova vs. Planet, the Weapons, the Cetra, and the final battle. I've got my own, but I want to hear yours.
omg whos teh hottest lol!!!11 i tihnk itz RED XIXIXZI, hes furri!!!1 (Or you could discuss who's the character you like best in general. But Red still lights my fire. Yow. rofl )
Favorite boss? Favorite materia combination? Favorite summon? Favorite enemy skill? Favorite minigame/sidequest? Favorite Cloud cross-dress option? Favorite area of the game?
Least favorites?
1. Aeris' Death: Okay, I liked Aeris. The first time I played through, I used her all of the first disc. Even now that I know she dies, I still use her sometimes because I like her character. When I saw her die for the first time, I actually cried. But I do admit that her death was justifiable, and even necessary. She was the last Ancient, and she gave her life to save the planet. Its almost poetic. That and I like Tifa better... >.> Tifa deserves Cloud.
2. Jenova is described as a "Calamaty from the Skies." This lead me to believe that Jenova is an alien lifeform. Whether she crashlanded on Earth or came here purposefully is unclear. The WEAPONs are tools made by the planet to defend it against aggressors. They were made when Jenova first crashed into the Earth and left the Northern Crater. The Cetra... who knows? Their very presence is anti-Jenova. Maybe they're aliens too? Maybe its the fact that they are in tune with the planet, while Jenova is like a virus to the planet.
3. Tifa and Cid. Tifa is teh hotness (n00b in me coming out), and I really like her character and Limit Break. She's always so nice and reserved. And as for Cid... well, he's a tough-talking, cigarette-smokin, plane-flyin, spear-wieldin, crazy-jumping son of a b***h. I just love his whole character, he's great. He sort of reminds me of Clint Eastwood and John Wayne, only with a spear and a giant airship. Also on my favorite character list is Reno and Reeve. If you've seen me RPing Reno, you'll understand why I like him ^^b
Favorite Boss: The fight with Rufus is satisfying (mainly because everytime I fight him I yell "EAT CLIMHAZZARD YOU p***y!!!"), but my favorite bosses are the Turks. I always have fun fighting the Turks. Also up there is Emerald and Ruby, they're always fun.
Favorite materia combo: >.> Master Magic, Master Command, Master Summon, Quad Cut, etc.
Favorite Summon: Damage? Knights of the Round. Looks? regular Bahamut.
Favorite Minigame/Sidequest: Snowboarding / the Wutai Sidequest
Favorite Cloud crossdress: >.> any of em, really... they're all hilarious
Favorite Area: hmmm.... City of the Ancients, maybe.... some other places are good too, but nothing comes to mind. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:23 pm
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:06 pm
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Saoszuc Okay, some topics which require immediate discussion RTFN.
Aeris's death. I posit that she was the most despicable character, and I'm glad that her sacrifice was necessary. I also hold that it was necessary, or the quest would have been for naught.
Theories regarding Jenova vs. Planet, the Weapons, the Cetra, and the final battle. I've got my own, but I want to hear yours.
omg whos teh hottest lol!!!11 i tihnk itz RED XIXIXZI, hes furri!!!1 (Or you could discuss who's the character you like best in general. But Red still lights my fire. Yow. rofl )
Favorite boss? Favorite materia combination? Favorite summon? Favorite enemy skill? Favorite minigame/sidequest? Favorite Cloud cross-dress option? Favorite area of the game?
Least favorites?
Hahah, this is fun 3nodding .
Aeris: When I first played the game, I had no opinion, really, about Aeris. Even when she died I was like "oh, dude, I lost my healer...oh well! *substitutes healer with Tifa and Red alternating when level up*" It wasn't until I played it the second time around where I actually paid attention to the plot that Aeris had made it to my top list of annoying characters in FF that I despise. Then came Eiko in FFIX. stressed Those two are battling it out to who annoys me more.
Although I did like her in FF7:AC. Maybe that was because Zack was there it was like "owned". (I'm not going to even dare go into the relationship category...because I'm such an avid CloudxTifa fan sweatdrop )
I need to think about the Weapons and Cetra, Jenova's impact, etc. Good discussion for that. 3nodding 3nodding
Favs - Characters: I'm such a Vincent fangirl, it even scares me. I'm sorry...I have a thing for anti-social depressing guys (Cloud's not included...that's because he was so screwed up in the head ^^). But I do like Tifa, mainly because she's such a strong character both physically and emotionally (although more physically as she can probably kick anybody's butt within a ten mile radius wink ). Plus Cid makes me laugh. Him and his tea, man.
Favs - Bosses: Emerald and Ruby are always...fun. It took me, I think, about 5 times to figure out that Ruby's much harder than Emerald and that Emerald is such an easy thing to kill once you get the hang of manipulating the time limit and mastering Mime and Knights of the Round ^^. I liked fighting Proud Clod, too. Because I was like "there, I'll go kick your asses 'GYAHAHAHA and KYAHAHAHA'!! Eat Omnislash!!"
Fav materia combo: HP plus, MP plus, Deathblow + Added Effect (I think that's the combo, does a deathblow and a 2nd attack in one), Quad Cut, Quadra Magic, and Master Magic (could never have the patience to get a Master Summon....)
Fav materia of all: Enemy Skill
Fav Enemy Skill: Hahaha...I'd have to say Big Guard. Because it's nice to have all of those benefits when kicking your enemy's butt ^^. And Shadow Flare - That was REALLY HARD TO GET. >.<
Fav Summon: Damage - like Gwyn, Knights of the Round. Coolness - Bahamut Zero (or Neo, either or). And Typhoon because it just looks funny ^^.
Fav Minigame: Snowboarding, Chocobo Racing (especially going against Joe; once I have my Gold Chocobo, I literally kicked his a**)
Fav Cloud crossdress: Um...all? They're so funny, especially Cloud's reaction to each one.
Fav. area: Hmm...probably going through the hot springs and the icicle caves near the Northern Crater. (Can't remember the precise name...)
Least Favs: I think most people can agree...the darn chocobo breeding process. After you get one river and one mountain, it's dandy, but getting one of each was the hard part. There were so many times where I had to press "reset" so I can finally get the right combo I want. |
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:12 pm
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Turns out Wikipedia has a great FFVII section - I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, but I never would have thought to check there. Came up in some Googling. Had to stay away from the Advent Children spoilers, unfortunately. crying
Aeris's death
There are conflicting theories about the ending - whether Holy is primarily fighting Meteor, or whether it's after everything detrimental to Planet, including humanity - but I figure that the supposition that Sephiroth is suppressing its power is correct, and therefore the direct confrontation between the party and Sephiroth.
Here's where I figure most analyses are off-base: It's assumed that Aeris activated holy moments before Sephiroth waxed her. I maintain that Holy was not activated by Aeris's prayer, but rather her death. I believe this is an important distinction, based on a few points.
Aeris was incapable of any meaningful effort on Planet's behalf while she remained alive, as demonstrated by her posthumous role as a sort of control officer for Planet's defense efforts. She directs Lifestream willfully at times, and was the consciousness behind Holy's strike at Meteor (once Sephiroth was out of the way). This shows that, like any Jedi, Aeris didn't come into her full power until after her mortal coil had been shuffled off. Further, it is apparent that she has not unified with Planet; not only is her unique consciousness maintained (as opposed to Biggs, Wedge, Dyne, and others seen in Lifestream later, who are more like ghosts in the shell, or archetypes), but she and Planet are engaged in a battle of wills over the defense efforts: Planet's first line of defense is Weapon, but Aeris wants to jump straight to Holy, do not pass Junon, do not collect two hundred gil. This is something Aeris was simply incapable of in life - she barely understood Planet as an entity. "Gosh, Planet is screaming! Does it need a diaper change? Perhaps it's the blatantly obvious and overly apparent misuse of Mako that's causing the poor thing's distress!" rolleyes For Aeris, death was merely the gateway to her true power as Cetra; her human portion had been holding her back.
Which raises some interesting questions: If the Cetra are Planet's pure race, then why would Aeris be capable of maintaining herself as a separate entity after her death? Wouldn't she be subsumed into Planet's will - wouldn't any Cetra have really just been Planet's will personified anyway? The answer, hideous as it initially appears, lies in an analogous entity: Jenova.
Contact with Lifestream, be it via death or dipping, tends to be fatal for Planet-derived creatures. Lifestream is a solvent for life. Sort of like soaking Styrofoam in gasoline - the derivative returns to its parent substance. Aside from Aeris, the only exceptions we are given to this rule are Cloud, Tifa, and Jenova.
Let's get Tifa's part out of the way first. Simple enough - when she and Cloud fell into Lifestream at Mideel, Aeris was running the show in an attempt to rebuild Cloud. Aeris was unsuccessful in her efforts to dissuade Planet from wasting resources on Weapon, so she needed to set up Cloud as a sort of avatar of Planet - a Weapon that she would control. She held Tifa apart from Lifestream's solvent effect, shielding her, knowing that she could manipulate her to bring about the beginnings of Cloud's rehabilitation. It's easy to imagine her passionless contempt for Tifa as a lesser being. "I can use her pathetic attachment to Cloud for my own purposes," she snarks from beyond the grave. And Tifa falls right into her role, not even aware of Aeris's hand, not knowing that in her efforts to convince Cloud that he wasn't just a tool being used by those more powerful, she was actually aiding his transformation into that very tool.
Cloud himself requires some measure of shielding, as he, too, is human at his core. However, his Jenova cells would protect him - or at least the part of him they made their own - no matter what. Jenova itself, being an entity completely alien to Planet, was in a sense immune to Lifestream, as it was completely separate from Planet's essence. In the end, this was the true danger of Jenova. Who knows? Perhaps Planet's own antibody-like xenophobia caused Jenova's virus-like hatred in the first place. Perhaps if Planet had been more receptive, less reactive and more responsive, Jenova would have proven to be an ally. First contact might have been a triumph rather than a tragedy.
So if Jenova is anathema to Planet and therefore cannot be subsumed within Lifestream, what does that tell us about the Cetra?
We're told that humanity is an outgrowth of the Cetra, that the Ancients eventually grew disillusioned with their nomadic lifestyles and settled down, losing their connection to Planet. That humanity is sort of a de-evolution, or perhaps just Cetra who have forgotten what it is to be Cetra. That the turning point of Cetra society was the arrival of Jenova two millenia ago.
This is wrong.
The Ancients, like Jenova, are an alien race which have infected Planet. Planet kept them on the run for generations, turning their homes into barren wastelands in an effort to drive them away, goading them from place to place to give it time to build Weapon, which was to be its final effort in driving them out. Luckily, it never came to that titanic confrontation; the diaspora it inflicted upon the Cetra was effective enough, and the race gradually waned on its own. As for Jenova's involvement? Jenova and Planet were having their own little conflict, and Jenova couldn't care less about the other mites which had infected its host. Do tapeworms concern themselves with fleas?
This, in the end, is why Planet and Aeris struggled over the use of Weapon. Even though Planet realized that Aeris was working for the same goal, Planet still wanted an ace up its sleeve - or several - and refused to allow itself to be compromised on that point. It saw the confrontation as its chance to rid itself of foreign influence, Jenova and Cetra alike, as well as putting those rowdy humans in their place. Thus Aeris did what cancers do best: turned her host's resources to her own bidding. She compromised Cloud (ironically compromising a piece of Jenova as well; looks like the fleas have bared their teeth toward the tapeworm) to carry out the plan her way, behind Planet's back and without Planet's involvement. Was her use of Cloud to destroy Weapon truly her way of keeping Planet's rage at humanity in check? Or was it rather a bit of Cetra spite, striking out at the very tool Planet had created to rid itself of the Cetra? Her emotionless, fully Cetra self certainly held no love for humanity in general, nor for her former friends specifically. Indeed, and this is the true irony, the player in all this mess for whom she likely held the greatest empathy was Jenova. But some parasites are so specialized as to defend their host against all comers, and so Jenova had to go.
in the end, perhaps Planet managed to eject Aeris like it had ejected all her filthy ilk in ages past. Perhaps Aeris's human side remained within Lifestream, another ghost in the shell, a sheen of light and hope which had been drawn over the foul extraPlanetary sludge of her Cetra nature. It may even be that the Cetra Aeris withdrew from Planet willfully after Holy had done its work; what greater victory could she have achieved than to wrest control of Planet itself from Planet, and what better way to cement that victory than to quit while she was ahead?
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:27 am
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:26 am
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:33 am
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:36 pm
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Gwyn Masamune You really hate Aeris, don't you? You talk about how Aeris is trying to save the planet her way, how she has no compassion for Cloud or Tifa and is using them when they fall in Mideel. Aeris never even made a slight appearence in the Lifestream. My theory is that Tifa was spared of having her mind obliterated by the Lifestream by entering into Cloud's subconcious, which is protected by his Jenova cells. Tifa brought his mind back into order alone. Aeris had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Tifa's body survived. Cloud's body survived. Lifestream isn't just consciousness, recall; it's the physical manifestation of Planet's entityhood. Unless Planet itself was holding them separate - which doesn't fit with Planet's apparent methodology or goalset - someone else was doing the job.
Gwyn Masamune And Aeris didn't want to use her friends. Never in all of the game did Aeris ever act outright selfishly. She was always putting her friend's above herself. It is this self-sacrificial aspect of her that I like.
It's one thing to put the mission above oneself, or to put oneself in danger to save one's friends. It's another entirely to try to play the party off each other, especially Barrett and Tifa, so one can get Cloud for oneself.
Gwyn Masamune I also don't adhere to the theory that the Cetra are parasites. Theres just not enough evidence in game to support a theory like that.
Tahpenes I think the theory that the Cetra were invasive and not allied toward Planet is flawed for one articulable reason. IIRC, the population at Cosmo Canyon seemed respectful of the Cetra and believed the Cetra and Planet were allied. That would be the only position they held which would be incorrect, since everything else they believe/theorize ends up being right on the spot. Wouldn't it be strange for them to be wrong on that one point alone?
The Cetra may well have been allied toward Planet. Note that I never gave any indication of what the Cetra attitude as a whole toward Planet was. Even Aeris's attitude was given as "save Planet, save people, be a snarky Cetra while doing it". But Planet, xenophobic little bugger that it was, sure wasn't allied toward the Cetra. The Cetrine legacy may have been one that the cactus-huggers out at the Canyon embraced, but their legacy wouldn't necessarily include the concept of "Oh, BTW, Planet hates us, even though we love Planet".
I maintain that the inherent separation from Lifestream is more powerful evidence of their extraPlanetary nature than any of the second- or eighth-hand information given through in-game dialogue which says they're Planet's homeboys.
Gwyn Masamune Also, I believe that Holy was created by the Planet and given to the Cetra to protect the planet. Think about it: materia is a natural resource that is created by the Planet. As Aeris' mother had Holy before Aeris, it is possible to conjecture that the Holy materia was a keepsake of the Cetra.
Obviously, Holy is Planetary in origin; however, there's more evidence for Black Materia being the prized keepsake of the Cetra than Holy. I know, I know, hide it in plain sight, make no big deal about it, keep it safe, yadda yadda. Know what? Holy could be misused just as nastily as Black Materia. Materia are tools, and in the end, it's individual people who use those tools. Not even Planet itself is shown as ever directly utilizing its own magical resources, Materia or not, save in the construction and deployment of Weapon. Planet never gave anybody anything except a headache with all its screaming.
Gwyn Masamune Aeris never wanted to go against the planet's will. All she ever wanted to do was protect the planet and her friends. I honestly don't see how you could try to make Aeris into some sort of villain, it just doesn't make sense on any level.
Aeris wanted to protect the planet and her friends. Aeris felt it necessary to go against Planet's will to do so, as Planet's methods were too laborious and wasteful, and the situation called for measures drastic in nature.
Please point out anywhere where I tried to make Aeris into some sort of villain. Pointed out that her extraPlanetary nature allowed her to use strongarm tactics to be a hero, yes. Pointed out that she was a b***h in life and void of compassion in death, yes. Villain? Hardly.
Tahpenes But my main reason for not believing that Aeris was deliberately and solely coordinating the whole thing is that I don't think she's that powerful. Being able to encourage Planet to choose Cloud as a pseudo-avatar, yes, but doing it on her own and consciously manipulating Lifestream? Mm...no. She's just not that badass.
Planet is not shown as being terribly intelligent - if it can even be said to have intelligence. Even worms produce antibodies, and they're pretty stimulus-response in nature. Planet's "will" may merely have been the equivalent of genetic programming which it attempted to carry out at all costs. Therefore, it's not like Aeris (or, to avoid confusion, we could call her "the Cetrine", as she's the only one of the buggers left once she dies) would need to take the bull by the horns, per se; it would be more a matter of misdirection, reappropriation, and so on.
Remember, too, that since Holy is her materia, and since she is directing it - perhaps even using Lifestream to pay the MP cost, irony of ironies - she has a direct line to Planet's resources. Since Holy is Planet's last line of defense, it's likely that Planet's program had "if all else fails" clauses which would allow Holy or Holy's user to redirect Planetary resources willy-nilly. |
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:31 pm
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:44 pm
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Gwyn Masamune I dunno... no offense, Sao, but your theories rely far too heavily on conjecture and a small personality flaw (if you can call it that) of Aeris' for me to lend much of personal credibility to. I'm a strict constructionist when it comes to video game plots... if it isn't at least somewhat referenced in the plot, then it isn't a valid arguement. I don't think that Aeris was a b***h in life (just typing that makes me feel silly), and I certainly don't think she was void of compassion in death. Theres no evidence to support such a claim in my eyes.
Point conceded - there is a measure of extrapolation and induction involved. But what's the point of these sorts of threads if not to explore what's just beyond the material in the game? razz
As for Aeris being a b***h - she's such a girl. She plays these little head games and... ugh. It's like watching a snotty little high-school debutante, especially when the party's on the western continent. Let me rustle up a script sometime so I can get the specifics. It's all over the place, though.
Gwyn Masamune On a side note, I apologize if I'm being offensive, I tend to get worked up over video games... yes, I know, I have no life, yadda yadda yadda.
Hardly. This is merely spirited discussion; I certainly haven't seen any cause for offense from anyone, and I hope nobody's taking offense from me. |
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:24 pm
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Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:35 pm
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Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:35 pm
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Best character vote:
Tifa. Tifa, Tifa, always Tifa. She's the driving force behind AVALANCHE; she's the driving force behind Cloud's rehabilitation. She angsts over whether to shield Cloud or open him up to the slings and arrows of reality. She weighs everything very carefully against the possible outcomes, trying to keep the party together and operating, trying to keep everyone at peace. She makes demands only where necessary. She can fight. She wants to fight. She suspends everything in her life - including any self-focus she may have had - to focus on Cloud, Cloud, always Cloud, bringing him back to who he's supposed to be. And she forgives him for being that person, too.
Favorites:
Boss - Any Jenova. All Jenova. That music... *shiver*
Materia - Deathblow. Oh yes. And Contain, too.
Materia combination - Added Effect + anything. Oh yes.
Summon - Leviathan. Followed shortly by Kjata. Followed thereupon by Shiva.
Enemy skill - Big Guard and Trine.
Minigame - Motorcycle action fun happy time!
Sidequest - Chocobo breeding. I always got lucky getting MTN and RVR Chocobo. sweatdrop
Area - Mt. Nibel, oddly enough. Just not Nibelheim proper.
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Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:01 pm
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