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X-Yami-no-Ko-X

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:03 am
This is kinda off the original topic of the thread but it was something that came into my head as I was reading Morg's reply.

Now I might just be assuming stuff and I hope I'm not overstepping bounds by asking, but Wiccans go through the rituals, I'm assuming, multiple times since the HP/S lead the rituals and I'm just assuming that they would have the whole initiated coven with them, for the most part. Is it possible that a Wiccan's experiences of one ritual can change and change the beliefs that came from that ritual?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:23 am
X-Yami-no-Ko-X Wrote:
This is kinda off the original topic of the thread but it was something that came into my head as I was reading Morg's reply.

Now I might just be assuming stuff and I hope I'm not overstepping bounds by asking, but Wiccans go through the rituals, I'm assuming, multiple times since the HP/S lead the rituals and I'm just assuming that they would have the whole initiated coven with them, for the most part. Is it possible that a Wiccan's experiences of one ritual can change and change the beliefs that came from that ritual?


Certainly. A person's experiences accumulate and evolve understanding continually, whether that's daily life or ritual.

Being present for an initiation rite is definitely a different experience than being the focus of one, though. Different perspective, different role.  

Morgandria

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:32 am
Morgandria Wrote:
X-Yami-no-Ko-X Wrote:
This is kinda off the original topic of the thread but it was something that came into my head as I was reading Morg's reply.

Now I might just be assuming stuff and I hope I'm not overstepping bounds by asking, but Wiccans go through the rituals, I'm assuming, multiple times since the HP/S lead the rituals and I'm just assuming that they would have the whole initiated coven with them, for the most part. Is it possible that a Wiccan's experiences of one ritual can change and change the beliefs that came from that ritual?


Certainly. A person's experiences accumulate and evolve understanding continually, whether that's daily life or ritual.

Being present for an initiation rite is definitely a different experience than being the focus of one, though. Different perspective, different role.
Well I was thinking if they played the same role multiple times. But I understand what you're saying. I didn't think of the parallel between the rituals and life.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:51 am
X-Yami-no-Ko-X Wrote:
I didn't think of the parallel between the rituals and life.

And sometimes being out in life you start to make connections that the rituals laid the foundation for- or at least, as much as it's true for me as a dedicant.  

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:54 pm
Esiris Wrote:

I'm saying that I don't "believe" in the Lord and Lady in the same way I don't believe in how a strawberry tastes, I've tasted a strawberry and even if I could only describe it in vague terms- I can tell the difference between how a strawberry tastes and how an orange tastes- which makes sense since Wicca isn't about belief, but experiencing the Mysteries. I don't have the Wiccan mysteries, but I have something that is leading me to them.

Hmm... ok i think i get it now, thank you smilies/icon_smile.gif  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:02 pm
Staring Berry Wrote:

Hmm... ok i think i get it now, thank you smilies/icon_smile.gif
cat_smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif Sorry for the earlier confusion.  

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:04 pm
Morgandria Wrote:
Not everyone is suited to the work that comes after initiation. Many who Seek learn as they go that Wicca is not what they thought, and is not the correct path for them.

Is it really that difficult? What could it possibly change about you everyday life besides certain practices? (Sorry if you can't answer this or this sounds ignorant and nosy)
Quote:

'Wiccan' is a title, given by others who have gone the same route before you, and earned through hard work. This is why students before initiation are referred to as 'Seekers'.

Thank you, i think this is what was confusing me so much when i was trying to learn about everything.

Quote:
Without this ritual, done correctly, no person can claim to be a Wiccan proper. If you have not stood the same test, If the ritual is incorrect, changed in some way, it will pass on Mysteries - but not the specific Mysteries that Wicca holds sacred, or the experience or understanding that is necessary to properly perform the rites of Wicca. You will not have the same connection to the same energy as Wicca.

How do you know if its real or not? Like, what if someone thought they found a coven and it turned out to be a fraud?  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:05 pm
Esiris Wrote:
Staring Berry Wrote:

Hmm... ok i think i get it now, thank you smilies/icon_smile.gif
cat_smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif Sorry for the earlier confusion.

Its no big deal, im really new to all this and i feel like im being to nosy smilies/icon_xp.gif  

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:35 pm
Staring Berry Wrote:

Is it really that difficult? What could it possibly change about you everyday life besides certain practices? (Sorry if you can't answer this or this sounds ignorant and nosy)


All initiated Wiccans are the chosen priests and priestesses of the Lord and Lady of the Isles. Not everyone is suited to being clergy, nor are all able to adequately perform the things that would be asked of them.

As for how it changes your life? Becoming a member of a coven is really becoming a member of another family, just as intimate and complicated as the one you're born to, or the one you may choose for yourself. You will have certain responsibilities. You have taken sacred oaths to both Gods and coven. The Gods themselves will ask things of you, just as the people of your coven will.

Nothing about initiation is casual. Initiation is in some ways rebirth. The foundation of your very life and the way you understand things will be shaken, and then settle in new ways. This should not be undertaken lightly, and is never offered if a person isn't proper for Wiccan practice.

Quote:
How do you know if its real or not? Like, what if someone thought they found a coven and it turned out to be a fraud?


There are ways of contacting verified Elders of lineaged traditions, who can do what's called a 'vouch' - basically it's a way of contacting people who know other, legitimate people, and verifying that a coven's priesthood is who and what they claim to be. Amber and Jet is a Yahoo mailing list that's often used for this purpose, but there are other BTW organizations out there that also provide vouches.

However, it's worth knowing that many priesthood and lineages consider it insulting, rude, and arrogant to demand of them their lineage, especially in a public forum. You can generally ask a person what tradition they're an initiate of, but if you want info for a vouch it's more polite to ask them in private, respectfully. It's good to know if someone's legit, but also bear in mind that covens are autonomous - their authority rests in their priesthood and elders, not all covens, lineages, or even traditions agree on all subjects, and there is no single, central authority that rules all Wicca and all Wiccans.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:50 pm
Morgandria Wrote:

As for how it changes your life? Becoming a member of a coven is really becoming a member of another family, just as intimate and complicated as the one you're born to, or the one you may choose for yourself. You will have certain responsibilities. You have taken sacred oaths to both Gods and coven. The Gods themselves will ask things of you, just as the people of your coven will. Nothing about initiation is casual. Initiation is in some ways rebirth. The foundation of your very life and the way you understand things will be shaken, and then settle in new ways. This should not be undertaken lightly, and is never offered if a person isn't proper for Wiccan practice

its not like you have to leave behind everything in your old life right? Or isn't it once you enter the coven you don't talk to anyone from your old life anymore?  

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:22 pm
Staring Berry Wrote:

its not like you have to leave behind everything in your old life right? Or isn't it once you enter the coven you don't talk to anyone from your old life anymore?


Certainly not. But coven adds another layer of things to your life, and can be very demanding.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:53 pm
Morgandria Wrote:
Staring Berry Wrote:

its not like you have to leave behind everything in your old life right? Or isn't it once you enter the coven you don't talk to anyone from your old life anymore?


Certainly not. But coven adds another layer of things to your life, and can be very demanding.

More demanding then say... a regular Christan church?  

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:45 pm
Staring Berry Wrote:

More demanding then say... a regular Christan church?


I've never been a Christian or regularly attended a church, so I can't really answer that from personal experience. And the two things are difficult to compare- these two religions are not based on the same things. In whatever case, Wicca is still an additional demand on a person's time and energy, alongside their job and their personal life.

Christian worship has a congregation of laypeople; Wicca does not have this. All Wiccans are priesthood. All take a role in performing the rites the Gods of Wicca ask of them. A coven may meet once a week, or more, or less...but in the end Wiccans are more like the priests of a Christian church, than its' parishioners. They are responsible not only for preparing the ritual materials and spaces, but performing the rite.

Wiccan ritual practice is active - no-one is a spectator, everyone is participating. Most covens also require their members to be present for the majority of their rites; those who miss too many may find themselves asked to take a leave of absence until they can be properly active again. Covens are individual, as I said before. Some will meet more frequently than others.

I don't know if it's more or less demanding than being a regular church-goer. But it is certainly its' own demand.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 am
Morgandria Wrote:


I've never been a Christian or regularly attended a church, so I can't really answer that from personal experience. And the two things are difficult to compare- these two religions are not based on the same things. In whatever case, Wicca is still an additional demand on a person's time and energy, alongside their job and their personal life.

Christian worship has a congregation of laypeople; Wicca does not have this. All Wiccans are priesthood. All take a role in performing the rites the Gods of Wicca ask of them. A coven may meet once a week, or more, or less...but in the end Wiccans are more like the priests of a Christian church, than its' parishioners. They are responsible not only for preparing the ritual materials and spaces, but performing the rite.

Wiccan ritual practice is active - no-one is a spectator, everyone is participating. Most covens also require their members to be present for the majority of their rites; those who miss too many may find themselves asked to take a leave of absence until they can be properly active again. Covens are individual, as I said before. Some will meet more frequently than others.

I don't know if it's more or less demanding than being a regular church-goer. But it is certainly its' own demand.

This is slightly scaring me away a little smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif  

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:28 am
Staring Berry Wrote:

This is slightly scaring me away a little smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif


Wicca is only one of many different pagan religions. It very well may be that Wicca isn't for you, but another religion is. Wicca is very unabashed in telling people that it isn't for everyone - it is a very specific thing, and needs a certain type of person. Not everyone is that person.

Think of paganism as the broad horizon you're walking towards, right now. You are just starting out, and the individual paths that lie ahead of you are not easily discernible from where your vantage point is right now.

Focusing only on Wicca, from where you are now, is maybe not the best strategy. You may end up in spiritual terrain that isn't suitable for you, have to backtrack, or even wind up lost for a while. Study the map. Learn about all the pagan religions you can access. And then decide if you want to walk in one particular direction for a while.  
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