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Whats your opinion?
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Total Votes : 70


Silent Expressor

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:47 pm
I originally started this thread in the advise subforum and someone told me that there was a debate in this subforum but because I didnt see one I thought I would make one



I personally dont think that people should read the books because it has witchcraft and it is a very dark book and the majority of the book talks about getting revenge, .If you read the books Harry Potter in several situations Harry gets revenge on students of the school because they did something bad to him. On top of that Voldormort is always trying to get revenge on harry. Also when harry potter returned home after his first year at hogwarts he made life miserable for the "muggle" family he was living with, because they made life miserable for him before he found out what he was


Galations 5: 19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


and Romans 12:19 says: do not take revenge my friends but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written "it is mine to avenge, I will repay," says the lord .


I did read the books but I read them from a christian standpoint and for the sole purpose of being able to get into an argument and say why the books are not nessesarily the best reading choice of christians and non christians alike. Also the majority of what I now know about the books I didnt know when I started reading them. Since I found out what I know about these books I havent picked them up again. Some arguments Ive already encountered are the 1.Harry Potter books fantasy and none of it is real, 2.J.K. Rowling is a self professed christian, 3.the spells are just words taken from the original Latin, 4.Harry Potter has nothing to do with real witchcraft and 5.the Witches in these books are similar to The White Witch from the Chronicles of Narnia and the Witches from the Wizard Of Oz


My Responses to the Arguments:
1.Harry Potter books fantasy and none of it is real

I believe it does have a lot to do with the real world, mainly because these books for one are set in the real world and second because they have a lot of underlying messages. Although HP is a fiction book the underlying messages have some truth, .
One of these underlying messages contained in the book is relativism (a belief that says that what may nessesarily be right for one person may not be right for another person) (such as murder is wrong) for example Harry finds out that his father was once the school bully, but its not his fathers fault he was just "misunderstood".


2.The spells are just words taken from the original Latin

I realize that the spells are not real and are from Latin words. But if someone converted to christianity from a religion such as wicca this book may cause them to stumble with their walk with christ

3.J.K. Rowling is a self professed christian

If J.K.Rowling is a christian then why is she writing about witchcraft like its a good thing .

And why does she insist on making each progressing book darker and darker (Ive talked to non-christians about this that say that these books get darker and darker) These books also slowly get closer and closer to pure wicca. Ive talked to people who used to be members of churches that practiced some sort of witchcraft but later became christians and they say these books are very close to pure wicca already.


Also J.K. Rowling once said that she would have Harry Potter lose his virginity in one of the books. This although having nothing to do with witchcraft, has a underlying message that sex outside the security of marriage is ok, regardless of what you believe, as a christian you know that the Bible says that this is not ok.... in my opinion i dont think a christian author would do this.



4. Harry Potter has nothing to do with real witchcraft

I found headlines and newspaper articles saying that satanic sects (such as wicca) are fighting to keep harry potter in public schools, if it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft then why would people that practice witchcraft fight so hard to keep these books in public and private schools?



5.The Witches in these books are similar to The White Witch from the Chronicles of Narnia and the Witches from the Wizard Of Oz

As far as drawing similarites to C.S. Lewis' White Witch with the Witches and Wizards of the harry potter books, there are several key differences. 1st The Witches and Wizards of the harry potter books are displayed as good characters possessing super natural powers. The White Witch of C.S. Lewis' books is displayed as witches are in the bible as evil characters. 2nd. All of the "muggles" (or normal persons without magic) are looked down upon in the harry potter books. While in the C.S. Lewis books the 4 childeren are the only ones that can end the white witches terror. 3rd. In C.S. Lewis' writing you can see that he is a Christian because he shows that in the end Witches will not be able to stand up to Christ (displayed as Aslan in the books). While in the harry potter books if J.K. Rowling is in fact a christian it dosnt reflect much in her writing, it shows that Witchcraft and Wizadry is a good thing and in the end will triumph. If harry potter were just another book written in some other world with magic and not Witches and Wizards I would have not problem with it. But these books are written so that you see everything in the real world where people like you and me with no supernatural power are looked down upon.

As far as the wizard of oz goes....some people could say the good witch displays wicca because people who practice wicca consider themselves white witches. But you also see in this movie that the wicked witches of the west and east both get killed, so like the bible suggests in the end Witches and Wizards will not triumph but be cast into hell like the rest of the people who believe satans lies.


Some People have asked me if I think that Harry Eating Chocolate frogs and learning to fight evil is wrong
Im not saying them eating chocolate and learning to "fight evil" is wrong Im saying that as a christian author she should not be writing about witchcraft as if it were a good thing. And Im not saying the book its self is evil im just simply saying that as christians we should guard our hearts and minds.



So whats your opinion?  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:11 pm
Tell me one thing though...Will a person go to Hell for reading HP? And if you answer yes, tell me why.  

vampy dave

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hot_wheels_turbo_racing

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:13 pm
mistressofthelost Wrote:
Will a person go to Hell for reading HP? And if you answer yes, tell me why.


No, the act alone won't send you to Hell. Only not accepting Jesus as your Saviour does that; however, if you're aware of the badness of participating in such a thing yet still continue to do it, you're not setting yourself up very good with God.  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:18 pm
Please explain "not setting yourself up very good with God". What does that mean exactly?  

Musashi_Reborn

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vampy dave

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:19 pm
hot_wheels_turbo_racing Wrote:
mistressofthelost Wrote:
Will a person go to Hell for reading HP? And if you answer yes, tell me why.


No, the act alone won't send you to Hell. Only not accepting Jesus as your Saviour does that; however, if you're aware of the badness of participating in such a thing yet still continue to do it, you're not setting yourself up very good with God.


But what if we aren't aware of how "bad" it is?  
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:57 pm
Holypimp Wrote:
I believe it does have a lot to do with the real world, mainly because these books for one are set in the real world and second because they have a lot of underlying messages. Although HP is a fiction book the underlying messages have some truth, .
One of these underlying messages contained in the book is relativism (a belief that says that what may nessesarily be right for one person may not be right for another person) (such as murder is wrong) for example Harry finds out that his father was once the school bully, but its not his fathers fault he was just "misunderstood".


Hey, Holy. I have a word for you. the word is fiction. this word, according to m-w.com means " something invented by the imagination or feigned." or, closer to what I am getting at, "an assumption of a possibility as a fact irrespective of the question of its truth". Now, what this means is that anything and everything in a fiction book in false. Automatically. Even the 'real' stuff (as in, things taken from reality) is false. When you get thing confused, you have an underlying mental issue that is entirelly seperate form religion (I believe the scientific term is schizophrenia).

Quote:
But if someone converted to christianity from a religion such as wicca this book may cause them to stumble with their walk with christ


If reading a work of fiction with latin words in it causes someone to stumble in their walk with christ, then they have no business having a walk with christ in the first place. No, really. people as mentally disabled as that simply cannot make the proper decisions/choices necesarry to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Quote:

If J.K.Rowling is a christian then why is she writing about witchcraft like its a good thing .

Ever read the Silmarillion? Well, long story short, it's basically the 'genesis' of Tolkien's middle-earth (you know, that one from LoTR). Well, yeah, it's got pantheism, reincarnation, flat-earths and a whole bunch of other stuff.

No go around saying how 'evil' and 'unchristian' J.R.R. Tolkien was. No, really. See the response.

Quote:
And why does she insist on making each progressing book darker and darker (Ive talked to non-christians about this that say that these books get darker and darker)

Because dark fiction sells, in case you haven't noticed. Oh, that and it's rather interesting.

Quote:
These books also slowly get closer and closer to pure wicca. Ive talked to people who used to be members of churches that practiced some sort of witchcraft but later became christians and they say these books are very close to pure wicca already.

No, actually, they don't. Whoever you talked to was obviously either a lier, a total idiot, or a major fluffbunny. The 'witchcraft' in Harry Potter is no where near 'real' wicca (which is, itself, basically, hyped up new-age christian mysticism)


Quote:
I found headlines and newspaper articles saying that satanic sects (such as wicca) are fighting to keep harry potter in public schools, if it has nothing to do with actual witchcraft then why would people that practice witchcraft fight so hard to keep these books in public and private schools?

Oh, remember kids, Hitler didn\'t buckle up..  

ioioouiouiouio

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Gilwen
Crew
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:58 am
Uh, thanks Cometh. Your post saved me about 30 minutes of typing.

I'd like to see an argument against the Harry Potter books based on anything concrete. Name something that the book encourages that is expressly forbidden in the Bible and that separates the books from other similar forms of entertainment.

Witchcraft: No. The witchcraft in Harry Potter does not resemble actual wicca, or the witchcraft forbidden in the Bible, I don't care who told you that it does. Magic in the HP books is even more mundane than the magic in the Narnia books. The only differences b/w Narnia and Harry Potter with regards to magic are a) the magic in Narnia comes from a supernatural power, and b) all of the people who perform magic in Harry Potter are called witches and wizards.

I would be concerned if Rowling's magic came from a supernatural power. As it is, it's far less blasphemous as Tolkien's pantheistic universe, as Cometh brought up.

If there is no problem with a LotR character being called a wizard, or the good witch in Oz, the problem couldn't be with the name "witch" or "wizard."

Revenge: Name one form of popular entertainment that does not use deviance as a form of humor. I guess we can't watch Dennis the Menace anymore, because he does bad things and isn't punished for them. smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif Those bad things aren't in the books and shows to encourage similar behavior, they're there for comedic purposes. If you have a problem wih that, fine, but don't single out Harry Potter. It's everywhere, and yet children threatening their family and schoolmates doesn't seem to be on the rise.

So, if someone has an objection to Harry Potter that doesn't involve one of these arbitrary things, I'd like to hear it.

Again, my best friend, who is the most godly person I know, has been reading the books for as long as I know her. How can something so evil not hurt her walk or trigger her conscience?

One more thing: it's bad to read things just to get into arguments about them. If you read something with the prejudice of hating it or seeing evil in it, you will. An author named Connie Neal wrote an entire book on how you can see Harry Potter as a complete Christian allegory, if you read it with that idea in mind. Point: if you set out to get a certain message out of a book, you'll come out with a ridiculous conclusion in your mind.

~Gilwen

PS I love the Silmarillion. smilies/icon_heart.gif  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:23 am
First of all, I agree with the original poster that we should safeguard our hearts and minds. However, the first post was so riddled with untrue statements that I have to safeguard my mind against it.

Quote:

the majority of the book talks about getting revenge,


Quote:

On top of that Mortimor is always trying to get revenge on harry.


I assume you're talking about Voldemort, and yes, it's because he's a bad guy. When was the last time you saw a bad guy with just good qualities? That would be more worrisome than Voldemort.

Quote:

One of these underlying messages contained in the book is relativism


Actually one of the strongest messages of HP is one very similar to what the Bible says: if an authority figure tells you to do something that is not the right thing to do, go ahead and do the right thing instead. Harry saves hundreds of students by obeying what is right instead of what is safe or popular.

Quote:

Harry finds out that his father was once the school bully, but its not his fathers fault he was just "misunderstood".


Actually, nobody thinks what James Potter did was right. It was wrong. But he is still a person, an Harry won't stop loving his dad just because he was a bully. And Lily practically hated James because of his bigheadedness.

Quote:

These books also slowly get closer and closer to pure wicca.


That's just untrue. Unless you can get proof from one of your wiccan friends. Nothing fundamental about the magical world in the books has changed one bit.

Quote:

The Witches and Wizards of the harry potter books are displayed as good characters possessing super natural powers.


Not all of them. Just like in the Wizard of Oz, there are good ones and bad ones. The good ones will win, the bad ones will lose.

Quote:

it shows that Witchcraft and Wizadry is a good thing and in the end will triumph.


The books haven't ended yet, but I have a feeling that when they do, good will triumph.

Quote:

As far as the wizard of oz goes....some people could say the good witch displays wicca because people who practice wicca consider themselves white witches. But you also see in this movie that the wicked witches of the west and east both get killed, so like the bible suggests in the end Witches and Wizards will not triumph but be cast into hell like the rest of the people who believe satans lies.


Yet another thing that Harry Potter is very close to the Bible on: In the end, love, good, and innocence will triumph.

Let me add a quote from the last book, and a SPOILER WARNING.



> "You have never been seduced by the Dark Arts, even for a second, shown the slightest desire to become one of Voldemort's followers!"

"Of course I haven't!" said Harry indignantly, "He killed my mum and dad!"

"Your are protected, in short, by your ability to love!" said Dumbledore loudly. "The only protection that can possibly work against the lure of a power like Voldemort's! In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you starred into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Voldemort, and not immortality or riches. Harry, have you any idea how few wizards could have seen what you saw in the mirror? Voldemort should have known then what he was dealing with, but he did not!"

(Harry saw his family in the mirror. His greatest desire was to be unconditionally loved, as his family would have done had they not been murdered. Does that sound like an evil message?)

Let me add one more quote.

1 Corinthians 13:13

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
 

Gilwen
Crew
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hot_wheels_turbo_racing

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:13 am
Musashi_Reborn Wrote:
Please explain "not setting yourself up very good with God". What does that mean exactly?


Well, we're accountable to God for everything we do. Doing something outright knowing it's not right is bad because it's going to bring greater judgement on you because you knew it was wrong.

mistressofthelost Wrote:
But what if we aren't aware of how "bad" it is?


Well, you should be asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in these areas of iffy issues. If you're getting the feeling that this is something you probably shouldn't be doing, then that's probably the Holy Spirit tugging at you to warn you. Since we're held accountable for all of our actions, it's best to check with God before getting involved with something that could be wrong.

Example: Now that you've read holypimp's well-structured reasons as to why Harry Potter is not something to be reading because it contradicts what God has said, you will bring greater judgement upon yourself now if you participate in it.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:39 am
hot_wheels_turbo_racing Wrote:

Well, we're accountable to God for everything we do. Doing something outright knowing it's not right is bad because it's going to bring greater judgement on you because you knew it was wrong.


And if Harry Potter is not any more wrong than any other fiction, as many people have calmly and rationally explained? You seem very quick to believe someone who admittedly read one book only to search it for evil, and then made assumptions about the rest, over people who have read them objectively and see nothing against the Bible contained therein.

Quote:


Well, you should be asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in these areas of iffy issues. If you're getting the feeling that this is something you probably shouldn't be doing, then that's probably the Holy Spirit tugging at you to warn you. Since we're held accountable for all of our actions, it's best to check with God before getting involved with something that could be wrong.

Example: Now that you've read holypimp's well-structured reasons as to why Harry Potter is not something to be reading because it contradicts what God has said, you will bring greater judgement upon yourself now if you participate in it.


Holypimp's argument is an example of the Holy Spirit's guidance???? *migraine* As far as I know, the Holy Spirit doesn't make mistakes.

Did you read my extensive list of things he said that were outright fallacies? I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming he's merely mistaken, rather than telling untruths to "get into an argument" and convince people he's right.  

Gilwen
Crew
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Snow_White_Queen

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:47 am
Let's look at the fruits of these viewpoints:

Harry Potter lovers: quoting Scripture in context, making reference to Biblical truths, emphasizing the importance of values, comparing the books to other similar literature.

Harry Potter haters: making illogical jumps, reading the books JUST to argue about them, accusing fellow believers of sinning without Biblical or logical proof, and giving false information about the books.

I know who I'm siding with. *votes*  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:55 am
hot_wheels_turbo_racing Wrote:
Musashi_Reborn Wrote:
Please explain "not setting yourself up very good with God". What does that mean exactly?


Well, we're accountable to God for everything we do. Doing something outright knowing it's not right is bad because it's going to bring greater judgement on you because you knew it was wrong.

mistressofthelost Wrote:
But what if we aren't aware of how "bad" it is?


Well, you should be asking the Holy Spirit for guidance in these areas of iffy issues. If you're getting the feeling that this is something you probably shouldn't be doing, then that's probably the Holy Spirit tugging at you to warn you. Since we're held accountable for all of our actions, it's best to check with God before getting involved with something that could be wrong.

Example: Now that you've read holypimp's well-structured reasons as to why Harry Potter is not something to be reading because it contradicts what God has said, you will bring greater judgement upon yourself now if you participate in it.


Actually, what Holypimp said didn't mean anything to me because most of his so-called facts are wrong. I don't feel at all that these books are a bad thing. They don't make me want to do magic. They don't want to make me do bad things. They just make me want to read them and enjoy them for what they are. ENTERTAINMENT.

As for his arguements...

1. Alot of fantasy books are set in the real world. Does that make them all evil and bad? As Gilwen said, a lot of the "relativism" was disobeying an autority figure because THEY were wrong. If your mother told you to kill someone, would you do it just because the bible tells you to obey your parents? I don't think so. And as for his father being the bully, well, he was, but he's always been an idol in Harry's eyes. That's very difficult to change, especially about a loved one. But his bad qualities shouldn't completely overshadow his good, such as loyalty and the fact that as an adult he was a major player against evil.

2. This argument just makes no sense. If the spells were in Spanish, would that make a difference? Wiccan spells are MUCH different than the simple 1-2 word spells in HP.

3. Since when has life ever been totally good and bright, especially for Christians. Rowling is portraying the fight against evil much like it is in the real world. Look at it this way: In book 1, HP is a brand new Christian. He doesn't really know much yet about the evils of the world. By book 6, he's grown in the faith and experianced many good and bad things. He's had friends go off the path or even die for their beliefs. He's constantly attacked for standing up for what is right. He's seeing the fight become more and more difficult, just like it does for us. And, no, as I've already said, the books are nothing like Wicca. If your friends say they are, then they practiced a very odd branch of it.

I've never heard anything about Harry losing his virginity, although if she's planning on doing that, it will happen in the next book. I highly doubt that though, seeing as how nothing of that nature has ever been hinted at before. I think that source may have been incorrect, or a fanfic.

4. Christians are also fighting to keep HP in schools. Or are you going to claim that they aren't real Christians?

5. What if the witches and wizards in the books were called something different? Then would you have as much of a problem with them? Not all of the characters in HP are good. There are good and evil witches and wizards as well as good and evil muggles. It's a fact of life. Not all muggles are looked down upon by all the magical people. Some elitests, like the Malfoys, look down on the muggles. Others, like the Weaslys, have no problem with them. And what about those like Hermione, whose parents are muggle? Of course she accepts and loves them. In the HP books, it isn't a fight against witchcraft, it's a civil war within the magical world. Good will triumph, most likely, freeing all the magical people and muggles from the evil or Voldemort and his followers.

So, as I said, his "facts" don't really mean much to me.  

vampy dave

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Tarrou

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:10 pm
The books are getting American kids to read. That alone is enough for me to say that they're 'good' -- never mind that I find the very notion that literature should be considered 'good' or 'bad' based on anything other than the quality of the writing and the story presented to be rubbish. Most of us can make a distinction between the real world and a work of fiction quite nicely, thank you, and we hardly need you telling us what will and will not mess with our moral compass.

My responses to your arguments:

I. 'Harry Potter books fantasy and none of it is real.'

Books can have underlying messages (often called 'themes'). What a concept. Now, to clarify, why is this a problem? Aren't readers capable of picking up on and assessing a novel's themes for themselves and deciding whether or not they agree or disagree with them? For example, a motif of the novel The Master and Margarita is that ethics cannot be divorced from religious feeling. I happen to disagree. Does that mean that I feel that I should not read The Master and Margarita because it will corrupt my worldview? No. As a human being endowed with critical faculties, I'm capable of recognizing and evaluating that theme and then deciding how best to deal with it in relation to my worldview. And the presence of themes that don't jive with your own ideology is no reason to reject a novel, either. The book can still be excellent in its own right. You just don't have to agree with it.

Apropos The Master and Margarita, you may wish to stay away from it as it's far more religiously subversive than Harry Potter. Stay away from the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy, too.

II. 'The spells are just words taken from the original Latin.'

And? What does that have to do with anything? Would you have preferred Rowling to have put the names of the spells in Sanskrit?

III. 'J.K. Rowling is a self professed christian.'

Again, and? I come back to the ability of individuals to distinguish between fact and fiction. It's a big leap between reading about a kid doing magic and going out into a field at night to commune with the Goddess or whatever. Moreover, any relation to Wicca is purely tangential: Some of the magical paraphernalia of Harry Potter is also used by some Wiccans in their rituals, but the reason for this is because brooms, cauldrons, wands, and the like are iconic magical implements whose use in folklore predates either Harry Potter or Wicca (founded in the 1950s by Gerald Gardner).

As to Harry losing his virginity, I don't recall Harry being Rowling's author surrogate. The fact that a character in novel does X does not mean that the author is necessarily endorsing X -- an important fact to remember. And, by the by, who made you the arbiter of what Christian authors do and do not write?

IV. 'Harry Potter has nothing to do with real witchcraft'


Primo, Wicca is not a satanic religion (watch how you fling that word about, by the way). Secondly, that's a 'guilt by association' fallacy. Thirdly, good for them. I would hope that anyone believing in the right to free expression would fight against narrow-minded attacks on a harmless book. Are you suggesting that public schools -- whose job, I must remind you, is not to inculcate students with Christian values, much less your particularly strident version of Christian values -- should ban Harry Potter on the grounds that it ruffles your feathers?

V. 'The Witches in these books are similar to The White Witch from the Chronicles of Narnia and the Witches from the Wizard Of Oz'

Not having read the Chronicles of Narnia and since it's been years since I read the The Wizard of Ox, I can't say much here. Others, fortunately, already have.  
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:35 pm
Okay Wheels. Let me see if I understand.

A Christian who reads Harry Potter will NOT go to Hell (as you said earilier), but will receive greater judgment from God for reading books that contain witchcraft (amongst other sins) in them.

Please explain how a Christian will receive greater judgment (but not punishment in Hell) for doing something that God (as you claim) says is bad.

That bad thing is not evil though, because it's not a sin (that which would cause a soul to be lost in hell) but is just bad.

By your own statement, nothing but not accepting Jesus will cause a person to be lost. If that is the case then How exactly is reading the fictional book wrong?  

Musashi_Reborn

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