"I want to learn Chinese!" "What type?" "Eh?" - On Mandarin

[Henneth Annun]

I cloned this from another place where I posted this, so it may be familiar to a few of you.

Recently I have noticed in places of higher education (in the USA) where only one type of Chinese is offered, they will usually call it just "Chinese" and list it as such. They will not say "Beginning Mandarin" or "Intermediate Cantonese II", they will just say "Beginning Chinese" and "Intermediate Chinese II." Sometimes in the course descriptions they will specify, and it's usually Standard Mandarin, but sometimes they do not.

At schools were more than one type is offered, and I used Cantonese and Mandarin for my search, the Mandarin class is listed as just "Chinese" whereas Cantonese is listed as "Cantonese."

This...bothered...me a bit. I do not want Mandarin Chinese to become what "Chinese" means to the masses. I know that Mandarin Chinese is the official language of China; even so, I do not know why American colleges and universities call it "Chinese" as if it were the only type out there. To me, and maybe this is a bit exaggerated, but it seems to me like the other languages under 'Chinese' are being slighted in this phenomena.

[Oh: most likely, I am not interested in what you have to say about the definition of "Chinese." I have done my reading on this, and I will continue to do more in the future. One person may explain if they wish, however I do not want this thread to turn into a series of posts where people repeat the same banal "commentary" based off things they read on online encyclopedias.

Also, I do not want to here about "dialect." For the purposes of this thread, I am going to consider Chinese a language family, Cantonese and Mandarin as two languages within it. What I will consider 'dialects' here are, for example, Guangzhou Cantonese + Taishan Cantonese, and Beijing Mandarin + Zhongyuan Mandarin.]

With that said, here are some things that I may find useful in a response:

- the type/s of Chinese you speak, are learning, know about, or plan to learn

- your relationship with both Chinese and American culture (short explanations will do)

- how you feel about referring to Mandarin as simply "Chinese," and the implications of calling Mandarin as such

- why you feel that institutions of learning are calling Standard Mandarin "Chinese"

If you want to discuss dialect and what "Chinese language" means, feel free to PM me or create your own thread or something. For now, I do not want those things to become the focus of the thread.

I apologize if this post seems curt and if I seem closed to debate (and rude and controlling); I simply do not want this thread to go off track. ><  

[randomnessensues]

Maybe it is because Mandarin is the official language. Like how Spanish is just called Spanish while Catalan is just called Catalan and not Spanish Spanish and Catalan Spanish (that a REALLY REALLY bad example, I know, but I can't think of another sweatdrop ).

As for the masses, I can just barely tell the difference when hearing spoken Mandarin and Cantonese, and the fact that I can tell a difference at all is because my friend makes me play "Guess whether this song is in Mandarin or Cantonese" (I think that game would be a lot easier if they weren't singing), so I don't think the masses generally consider either one to be "Chinese," you know? I think people just tend to group them together as one. This is probably not a good thing to do, either, though.

Also, some places call Mandarin Putonghua, which (now that I know what it is) seems more accurate but increases my confusion.  

[kyuuketsuki4]

the type/s of Chinese you speak, are learning, know about, or plan to learn
I don't do Chinese, and never will, as it doesn't appeal to me.

why you feel that institutions of learning are calling Standard Mandarin "Chinese"
Not everyone knows the names of Chinese dialects(they're dialects in my mind. In your mind just replace that with languages.), even the major ones. It's just simply good sense to make sure the people you are advertising to understand what you're advertising.

Personally, when I say Chinese I really do mean all dialects. If I meant simply Mandarin I would say Mandarin. I have very little interest in Chinese, and therefore rarely have reason to specify. I don't mind when people refer to Mandarin as Chinese either, as it's just a word. Words don't always stay true to their origins, and new meanings are formed without too much confusion. If in the future "Chinese" is known by all English speakers to refer to Mandarin I don't really see a problem. I think the majority of the time people are using it the way I do though, without any particular dialect in mind, or if they don't know the dialect("I heard some people speaking Chinese.)

Though, I have to say, if colleges are going to offer multiple dialects of Chinese don't have one of the courses called Chinese, because the other is Chinese too. At least be consistent. For now at least, since Chinese DOESN'T simply mean Mandarin yet, even if it's used as such sometimes I don't think it's widespread enough yet. Give it 10 years.  

[Mustafah Monde]

I've only ever known Mandarin to be spoken where i live, and most people aren't even aware there's a.. Cantonese was it?

i don't even know what it sounds like, so i think it's safe to assume, for most Westerners at least, that Chinese refers to Mandarin


same as i don't speak King's English or British English or American English, dialects are dialects - its the same core language  

[kyuuketsuki4]

Dippamus

dialects are dialects - its the same core language

While I consider them dialects because for the most part they are classified as such, henneth has a point: they could easily be considered separate languages, and there's not much point arguing that. Your original point, however is basically what I was trying to say. Many people don't even know Cantonese exists, or aren't aware of the many dialects of Chinese. Sure, you can teach them, but I don't think there's any harm in calling Mandarin Chinese.  

[lili of the lamplight]

I don't speak Chinese and am unsure of what dialect I would learn if I were to start doing so. I'd probably go with Cantonese or Mandarin, depending on my intentions for future use. I'm an American and don't speak Chinese. Some of the other students in my dorm have been teaching me a few words of various dialects, including Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese.

I don't think it's correct to use Chinese as a synonym for Mandarin. There are so many diverse dialects of Chinese that it's really a misnomer and shows disrespect for the linguistic diversity that exists in China. It's also not fair to put the dialects on par with the dialects of English which are basically mutually intelligible. The dialects of Chinese are, from my understanding, often mutually unintelligible in spoken form. In that sense, the dialects are more like dialects of Arabic or German.

I think the most appropriate would be to say either just Mandarin or Mandarin Chinese, rather than just Chinese when referring to that dialect. That said, I do understand why institutions tend to refer to Mandarin as Chinese. They do the same thing with many other languages as well. I take German classes, and they're called "German" without reference to the dialect unless they deal with a dialect other than Modern High German. Arabic courses usually refer to Modern Standard Arabic rather than Moroccan, Levantine, etc. By using the most basic term (Chinese/German/Arabic/French), they mean the standard or most common form of the language (Mandarin/Hochdeutsch/MSA/Acadamy French).

I would say that calling all dialects of Chinese "dialects" might actually be incorrect by some standards of what a dialect is versus a separate language, but until that classification is changed, I'm pretty sure we'll see the continuation of the status quo.  

[Liv Qorri]

lili of the lamplight

I don't think it's correct to use Chinese as a synonym for Mandarin. There are so many diverse dialects of Chinese that it's really a misnomer and shows disrespect for the linguistic diversity that exists in China. It's also not fair to put the dialects on par with the dialects of English which are basically mutually intelligible. The dialects of Chinese are, from my understanding, often mutually unintelligible in spoken form. In that sense, the dialects are more like dialects of Arabic or German.

I think the most appropriate would be to say either just Mandarin or Mandarin Chinese, rather than just Chinese when referring to that dialect. That said, I do understand why institutions tend to refer to Mandarin as Chinese. They do the same thing with many other languages as well. I take German classes, and they're called "German" without reference to the dialect unless they deal with a dialect other than Modern High German. Arabic courses usually refer to Modern Standard Arabic rather than Moroccan, Levantine, etc. By using the most basic term (Chinese/German/Arabic/French), they mean the standard or most common form of the language (Mandarin/Hochdeutsch/MSA/Acadamy French).

This is what I was thinking also. Actually, I agree with everything lili of the lamplight said. sweatdrop

I am not studying any form of Chinese and I do use the term to refer to Chinese languages in general, but I have to say that it does annoy me a bit when I see classes and programs listed as "Chinese". I think it should be more specific, like Mandarin Chinese. I think the vast majority of people are unaware that there is anything but "Chinese", and to not differentiate between them I think just helps spread ignorance.

For example, in my religion class the other night, the professor asked if anyone spoke a language besides English. One student said that he spoke Mandarin. Only a handful of students knew what that was. Two girls actually turned to me and asked, "what the heck is "Mandarin"? Isn't that some kind of fruit?" xd When the prof. said that it was China's main language, everyone was like, "well why not just say Chinese?" They were amazed to find out that there are very different varieties of "Chinese".