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Homosexuality and the Bible (1/5/06) Goto Page: [] [<<] [<] 1 2 3 ... 21 22 23 24

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Mein Kulturkampf

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:12 pm
Tarrou Wrote:
Undiscovered Artist Wrote:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 [English Standard Version]

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

It does state that homosexuality is immoral, after all. smilies/icon_stare.gif

That's kind of a strange translation. The ESV seems to have rammed together two categories that other translations have rendered separately. Usually that verse refers to male prostitutes/effeminate men as well as homosexuals/abusers of themselves with mankind. Very strange. Further, 'homosexual' is a curious word to use in translation, given that it was invented in the 19th century and probably doesn't have an ancient equivalent as the idea of exclusive homosexuality implied by the word didn't exist until very recently.

But let's get down to the language. The Greek work malakos, which the ESV seems to have ignored altogether, literally means 'soft' and is probably best translated as 'male prostitute'. The word from which modern biblical translations derive the phrase 'homosexual offenders' and its equivalents is arsenokoites, which is very nearly a hapax legomenon; it seems that Paul may have invented it himself. A combination of the words for 'male' and 'sexual intercourse', arsenokoites seems at first glance to refer explicitly to homosexual sex, but there are problems with that interpretation. Firstly, since it appears only in two places in the bible and nowhere else in the written record, we can't divine its meaning through looking at its historical usages. Secondly, if arsenokoites does refer to homosexual sex its construction would imply that it only covers male homosexual sex, making 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 only a half-condemnation of homosexual relations. The omission of female homosexuality from Paul's list of condemned behavior seems very unusual in this scenario, which to my mind suggests that it has a more specific meaning than just 'homosexual sex'. 'Pederasts' seems a likely candidate, although as I've said, there's really no way of knowing for sure.



That's not quite true. Arsenokoites appears in the Sybilline Oracles 2.70-77.10; there it is used as a verb in the following context:

"(Never accept in your hand a gift which derives from unjust deeds.)
Do not steal seeds. Whoever takes for himself is accursed (to generations of generations, to the scattering of life.
Do not arsenokoitein, do not betray information, do not murder.) Give one who has labored his wage. Do not oppress a poor man. Take heed of your speech. Keep a secret matter in your heart. (Make provision for orphans and widows and those in need.)
Do not be willing to act unjustly, and therefore do not give leave to one who is acting unjustly."

These are all sins of injustice; oppression, stealing, lying, etc. In the same oracle, there is a list of sexual sins; those these include adultery, lustfulness, abortion, and baby-killing, gay sex is not mentioned.



A book in the New Testament Apocrypha, the Acts of John, has this to say;

"You who delight in gold and ivory and jewels, do you see your loved (possessions) when night comes on? And you who give way to soft clothing, and then depart from life, will these things be useful in the place where you are going? And let the murderer know that the punishment he has earned awaits him in double measure after he leaves this (world). So also the poisoner, sorcerer, robber, swindler, and arsenokoités, the thief and all of this band. ...So, men of Ephesus, change your ways; for you know this also, that kings, rulers, tyrants, boasters, and warmongers shall go naked from this world and come to eternal misery and torment (section 36; Hennecke-Schneemelcher)."

Here again, the word arsenokoites is found in a list of sins related to injustice. John also denounces sexual sin elsewhere in the test, and arsenokoites is not there.

There are some other places, but these are the most straightforward. If you want more reading, go here:

http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 pm
Yes, I'm familiar with Mr. Martin's Arsenokoités and Malakos: Meanings and Consequences, thank you. I actually read it several years ago, back when Ananel's thesis was still actively floating around M&R and I was still one of a group of forum regulars championing this line of argument, so I'm a bit embarrassed that an old hand such as myself forgot about arsenokoites's other appearances in the written record. Still, if I weren't so chastened by my own poor memory, I'd be rather put out by the receipt of a 'for your edification' post with a link to an article whose major points I've been arguing for nigh on three years now.
Regardless, my point (and it's one that is almost entirely derived from Martin's arguments) still stands: the word doesn't appear in enough useful contexts (an undefined item on a list is not a useful context) for us to make any accurate guesses as to its exact meaning. We might gain some limited insight from looking at its proximate placement in said lists (as Martin points out, it isn't generally listed with exclusively sexual sins), but in the end all we're left with is conjecture.  

Tarrou

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Lance D Anderson

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:43 am
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Romans 1:27

The wicked are blinded by the truth and find excuses for what God has made clear to those who are righteous. Sin is sin; perversion is still is what it has always been and the bible is truth in its entirety. Those who do not believe in the word of God in its entirety underminds God in their minds, thinking he has no power in seeing his great will done.
The truth has been made obvious to all of humanity, it's their choice of what will they want to accept, what is normal from the beginning and God's will or what the world wants and Satan's will. God was, is, and always will be. He doesn't pardon sin without redemption, for it shows your loyalty to him of the world who hates the heavenly father and humanity.

Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil.

To show you one example the obviousness of the penalties of sin, in which all sin is bad to both the mind, body, and soul.
http://americansfortruth.com/news/labarbera-calls-for-%e2%80%98breaking-the-silence%e2%80%99-on-the-health-risks-of-homosexual-behavior.html#more-1896  
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:14 am
Lance D Anderson Wrote:
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. - Romans 1:27


Yay for lesbianism.

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The wicked are blinded by the truth and find excuses for what God has made clear to those who are righteous.


And if you speak wisdom to a fool, he will call you foolish and despise your words. Pr 23:9

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Sin is sin


No WAY!

Quote:
Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous weighs its answers, but the mouth of the wicked gushes evil.


If you trust your own heart, you fall. Pr 28:26

Quote:
To show you one example the obviousness of the penalties of sin, in which all sin is bad to both the mind, body, and soul.
http://americansfortruth.com/news/labarbera-calls-for-%e2%80%98breaking-the-silence%e2%80%99-on-the-health-risks-of-homosexual-behavior.html#more-1896


Yup, dumb people who don't protect themselves will get hurt.  

IcarusDream

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Mike Oxlittle

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:53 pm
I know that I'm not supposed to post one-liners, but I really think that this thread is worth pointing out, if it hasn't been done so already.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:29 pm
Leviticus 20:13 says "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.". Obviously homosexuality is a sin. It doesn't say anything about woman on woman in that area but knowing God it should be the same. It's probably somewhere in scripture too. God meant for men to become on flesh with woman as it says in Genesis 2:18-24. And of course the ible even states our biological purpose in Genesis 1:28 "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."" If you don't believe that this is still law (Leviticus is old law) then read Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this." This is to say that men and women are not to switch sexual roles.  

Break Sage

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Varda of the Stars

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:12 pm
Tarrou Wrote:
Jedediah Smith Wrote:
No, "burned in their lust one toward another men with men," not together. Any sexual desire (lust) is sinful except within the marriage union.

Okay, so lust is bad. What does this have to do with homosexuality? Are you saying that gay lust is worse than straight lust, because the verse doesn't support that.

Sinner Wrote:
Why you say? Their actions are unnatural according to verse 26.

Yeah, but as I pointed out earlier, it's unclear how it's unnatural. It's entirely possible that, as a punishment, God gave a bunch of straight people over to homosexual lusts, which would be unnatural in the sense that said lusts would be against their intrinsic nature (an interpretation that would be supported by one of the definitions of the Greek word phusis). Or maybe God was very specific and made a bunch of Roman men desire to be the 'receiving' partner, a condition that would be very shameful and 'unnatural' for a Roman citizen, who, according to social prejudices, should always be on top, as it were.

In interpreting Romans 1 you're ignoring both the varied connotations of phusis and the prevailing social mores of the people that Paul was writing to, all in the interest of furthering an agenda rather than performing careful biblical exegesis.






ummmmmmmmm......what??!?hello??u misenterpreted wrong,for it sayshe gave them up(let me stress the word gave them up)now this happens in the time when adam and eve sinned against God,sin entered this world,the devil took place,cant you see????God didnt punish them,but he had to give them up to a sinful way of living,hello??who is the creator of all evil?who is the originator of sin???WHO?!?THE DEVIL!!!!  
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:21 pm
Tarrou Wrote:
Yes, I'm familiar with Mr. Martin's Arsenokoités and Malakos: Meanings and Consequences, thank you. I actually read it several years ago, back when Ananel's thesis was still actively floating around M&R and I was still one of a group of forum regulars championing this line of argument, so I'm a bit embarrassed that an old hand such as myself forgot about arsenokoites's other appearances in the written record. Still, if I weren't so chastened by my own poor memory, I'd be rather put out by the receipt of a 'for your edification' post with a link to an article whose major points I've been arguing for nigh on three years now.
Regardless, my point (and it's one that is almost entirely derived from Martin's arguments) still stands: the word doesn't appear in enough useful contexts (an undefined item on a list is not a useful context) for us to make any accurate guesses as to its exact meaning. We might gain some limited insight from looking at its proximate placement in said lists (as Martin points out, it isn't generally listed with exclusively sexual sins), but in the end all we're left with is conjecture.



what!!the word says so loud and clear!!!all those scriptures that they showed you and that you have claimed to have already read!!and that isnt enough context for you to believe that homosexualitiy is a sin!!i cant believe this!!(1 corinthians 6:9-10))read it!!  

Varda of the Stars

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:09 pm
IcarusDream Wrote:
Peoples_Alchemist Wrote:
I really like your choice of words in our argument... They are very colorful to say the least. Are you a Christian, Icarus?


Don't know what I am. I was raised Catholic, not that anymore. I'm leaning towards Platonism.

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And after he's done he's going to condemn you for sticking up for whatever you say.


I'll stick up for NAMBLA then, you'd better not shout me down.

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According to him, I blasphemed against God and misunderstood the bible.


Ah right, prove that you understood it correct. Continue the argument instead of commenting on it.

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He also says that if you don't think it is a sin, whether it is lying or having sex with your sister, then it's no longer a sin!!!!


Intent plays a huge role, you're commenting as if you've proved something's wrong but you really haven't done jack squat.

Quote:
I posted evidence and he still couldn't see what is right in front of his face.


May I laugh? HAHAHAHAHA.

You're so ******** ridiculable (that's probably not even a word, but it's what you are). You posted stories about love between men that, if anything, showed acceptance of that kind of love.

You failed to comment on the idea that homosexual sex was condemned as a Canaanite ritual (Which it was, and is why it was condemned).

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The bible isn't a fairy tale for your own enjoyment, Icarus!


I actually enjoy it, so sorry. I also enjoy reading it in Greek, and actually knowing what the stories mean.

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Oh, I like that name. It is very indicative of your character.


My name is a remembrance of the song by Yngwie Malmsteen.

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So after all of this, you should take my advice and do not argue with this guy.


Or maybe, you could actually use the reason and logic God supposedly gave you.

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He's going to take my words out of context,


Prove that I have ever done that, or ever will.

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accuse me of being a sinner and not knowing what I'm talking about.


Is it just me or did you say "You shouldn't expect me to know everything in the bible seeing as I do not have a degree in bible, nor have I majored in, or have professed to have done so."

These aren't accusations I've made of you. You already confessed. Just get the ******** out or start actually saying something relevant.

Would you like to define αρσενοκοιται and μαλακοι for me? That would be a nice place to start.
icarus dream,r u even christian????u r blasphemous in ure form of speech and ideals,this is just bull,homosexuality is sin,whether you like it or not,you cant make that change,and if you dont get that in your head,whenever you die,you will beg God for forgiveness,but he will not listen to you,is that what you want???well fine with me,you just dont understand,people everywhere are trying to change the bible's context so it will have a softer more beautiful message,lol,foolish people,you cannot change the meaning of scripture that is all  
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:18 pm
Watch this.

-yawn-
So could somebody please direct to where it mentions homosexuality being a sin in the New Testament?

I want to hear how Jesus preached love, but hated the gays.  

Xahmen

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IcarusDream

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:32 am
krystalmetalera Wrote:
icarus dream,r u even christian????u r blasphemous in ure form of speech and ideals,


I'm not.

Quote:
and if you dont get that in your head,whenever you die,you will beg God for forgiveness,but he will not listen to you,is that what you want???


Should the Bible be correct, I would not even trust in God to guide me, for he may guide me astray, as in the case of Pharaoh, Esau, Shimei, and others.

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well fine with me


If you have a conventional understanding of Christian texts, I would think it unsettling for you to know another human being is going to burn.

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you just dont understand,people everywhere are trying to change the bible's context so it will have a softer more beautiful message,lol,foolish people,you cannot change the meaning of scripture that is all


The whole of the Bible is rather detestable to me, and I have read a significant portion of the whole in person, but, on topic, what verses do you think are most indicative of homosexuals future?  
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