Welcome to Gaia! ::

*~Let the Fire Fall ~* A Christian Guild

Back to Guilds

 

 

Reply Debate and Discussion
Hmmm. Magic Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 6 7 8 9 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Submit

ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:37 pm
Ricette Wrote:
I didn't read through all the pages, since I am kinda lazy but, magic = evil? Only if practiced to harm another being is it ever bad. And well, witchcraft is not all bad. The big practitioner of it in the bible is the well known Moses. I mean staff turned intoa snack, river into blood, the Red Sea being parted and then the whole bit of striking a rock to get water for those wanderers? Dare you refute that magic? Yeah he gave God credit except for the water from rock bit, which we know barred him from entering the Holy Land but, yeah still magic.


I think the big difference is that the power Moses had was granted directly from God instead of invoked through ritual.

Edit: I also think that's the big defining point between miracle and magic, in general. Miracle is directly from God whereas magic is invoked in some manner.  
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:10 pm
ShideKnight Wrote:
Ricette Wrote:
I didn't read through all the pages, since I am kinda lazy but, magic = evil? Only if practiced to harm another being is it ever bad. And well, witchcraft is not all bad. The big practitioner of it in the bible is the well known Moses. I mean staff turned intoa snack, river into blood, the Red Sea being parted and then the whole bit of striking a rock to get water for those wanderers? Dare you refute that magic? Yeah he gave God credit except for the water from rock bit, which we know barred him from entering the Holy Land but, yeah still magic.


I think the big difference is that the power Moses had was granted directly from God instead of invoked through ritual.

Edit: I also think that's the big defining point between miracle and magic, in general. Miracle is directly from God whereas magic is invoked in some manner.
THat is a point yes, that its said his power came direct from God, though it still can fall under the heading of witchcraqft/magic. And just because it didn't require ritual doesn't mean any other magics in the world then and now were any less evil or so because they needed ritual to help it along. Though I NEed to say a lot of what is viewed as "magic" today, spells for true love, wealth, happiness, and all those thingds not even magic can give, many if not all legitimate spell casters and practitioners say that isn't magic. Though yes other things such as trying to raise the dead or trying ot curse, its not tolerated and those people are well, shunned. So those two groups, the crackpot peddlers of false mircles or cures for societal or personal wealth ills, and the dark magic practioners, they have given the rest of the magic community a bad name and rap and of course brought up things like this in modern day Christianity discussions. SOrry ia m rambling now, i am in a state of mourning so please try not to hate me too much. But I do have to agree with you there on what would seperate MOses' magic fro what is viewed by many as magic. Youg ot me there, though I sitll find it an interesting point to bring up in these type of discussions.  

Ricette

Ricette's avatar


ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:24 pm
Ricette Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
Ricette Wrote:
I didn't read through all the pages, since I am kinda lazy but, magic = evil? Only if practiced to harm another being is it ever bad. And well, witchcraft is not all bad. The big practitioner of it in the bible is the well known Moses. I mean staff turned intoa snack, river into blood, the Red Sea being parted and then the whole bit of striking a rock to get water for those wanderers? Dare you refute that magic? Yeah he gave God credit except for the water from rock bit, which we know barred him from entering the Holy Land but, yeah still magic.


I think the big difference is that the power Moses had was granted directly from God instead of invoked through ritual.

Edit: I also think that's the big defining point between miracle and magic, in general. Miracle is directly from God whereas magic is invoked in some manner.
THat is a point yes, that its said his power came direct from God, though it still can fall under the heading of witchcraqft/magic. And just because it didn't require ritual doesn't mean any other magics in the world then and now were any less evil or so because they needed ritual to help it along. Though I NEed to say a lot of what is viewed as "magic" today, spells for true love, wealth, happiness, and all those thingds not even magic can give, many if not all legitimate spell casters and practitioners say that isn't magic. Though yes other things such as trying to raise the dead or trying ot curse, its not tolerated and those people are well, shunned. So those two groups, the crackpot peddlers of false mircles or cures for societal or personal wealth ills, and the dark magic practioners, they have given the rest of the magic community a bad name and rap and of course brought up things like this in modern day Christianity discussions. SOrry ia m rambling now, i am in a state of mourning so please try not to hate me too much. But I do have to agree with you there on what would seperate MOses' magic fro what is viewed by many as magic. Youg ot me there, though I sitll find it an interesting point to bring up in these type of discussions.


I am not hating... I really hope I do not come across that way. I am sorry for your mourning... I know life can really be hard sometimes.

As for rambling, I find it kind of interesting too. Magic used to be an interest of mine, though I suppose I never knew very much beyond the very basics of theory and no practice.

But I think the basis of Christianity being against magic is based in the fact that magic is relying on ones own self to try and produce miracles. Being that Christianity at it's base is trying to align yourself with what God wants, it's against the base idea of the faith to try and be your own source of miracle, your own god.

By the way, I personally think that people sell what is possible way short. I have this inkling that the way we think about the world has changed so much that we just may not be capable of communing with God in a way that Moses did to make those miracles, or that a magician would use to pull off some 'impossible' spell.

I suppose I think that miracle and magic are two sides of the same coin; the way that God intended it and then the perversion of it that came with Satan and the Fall.

God Bless....  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:24 pm
Very good ShideKnight! Your inkling is correct. We have fallen so far from the Lord, compared to Moses and Abraham and them, that it's a miracle in itself that we can still TALK with God!

And Magic is the perversion that Satan brought about. Miracle is something that comes Directly from God.

Magic is very different from Miracles though. So much farther apart than a simple two-sided coin. Ultimate Evil vs. Ultimate Good. They are opposite ends of the universe!! I do get the basic good vs bad analogy of the coin though.

I have spoken with God quite a few times. I know for a fact that he exists. And He's told me that those who believe in and pray to angels, but ignore His existance, are talking to demons in disguise. I've seen these "Angels" you speak of. Yes, they LOOK like angels, and ACT like them.... but they still FEEL wrong. I can tell the difference because God gave me Discernment of Spirits. I can TELL when a real demon or a real angel is around.

And I can tell who is under the influence of demons. And I'm ALWAYS right about it.

And it HAS worked over the internet before. Several times.  

Aquiella

Aquiella's avatar


Neferet -House of Night-

Neferet -House of Night-'s avatar

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:48 am
Aquiella Wrote:
Very good ShideKnight! Your inkling is correct. We have fallen so far from the Lord, compared to Moses and Abraham and them, that it's a miracle in itself that we can still TALK with God!

And Magic is the perversion that Satan brought about. Miracle is something that comes Directly from God.

Magic is very different from Miracles though. So much farther apart than a simple two-sided coin. Ultimate Evil vs. Ultimate Good. They are opposite ends of the universe!! I do get the basic good vs bad analogy of the coin though.

I have spoken with God quite a few times. I know for a fact that he exists. And He's told me that those who believe in and pray to angels, but ignore His existance, are talking to demons in disguise. I've seen these "Angels" you speak of. Yes, they LOOK like angels, and ACT like them.... but they still FEEL wrong. I can tell the difference because God gave me Discernment of Spirits. I can TELL when a real demon or a real angel is around.

And I can tell who is under the influence of demons. And I'm ALWAYS right about it.

And it HAS worked over the internet before. Several times.
If you're always right, then what about me? Am I being attacked by demons? And actually I can tell you're a fake. Because I know people with different gifts, and those gifts don't work well over the internet. Not even my gifts work over the internet.

And magic IS NOT PERVERSION! Nor does it come from Satan. The kind of magic a pagan does is NATURE BASED. Seriously. Go to http://www.religioustolerance.org and do some research on paganism and magic. Because what you're saying isn't even right. That's a perversion that Satan is telling you to say. Magic is not good or evil. It does not come from Satan. But someone's opinions that are a perversion of the Truth do come from your Satan. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:46 pm
Thanks, Aquiella ^_^

Well the thing is, which is right, what it says on religeoustolerance.org, or what is stated in the Bible, and what has been the practice for... ages, now?

Nature is considered fallen in Christianity. Therefor, what comes from nature, is not strait from God.

Honestly I don't know if I would say that magic always comes strait from Satan, but what I do know is that if it doesn't come strait from God, than it's not a power that we should be relying on.  

ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar


Ricette

Ricette's avatar

PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:36 pm
Aquiella Wrote:
Very good ShideKnight! Your inkling is correct. We have fallen so far from the Lord, compared to Moses and Abraham and them, that it's a miracle in itself that we can still TALK with God!

And Magic is the perversion that Satan brought about. Miracle is something that comes Directly from God.

Magic is very different from Miracles though. So much farther apart than a simple two-sided coin. Ultimate Evil vs. Ultimate Good. They are opposite ends of the universe!! I do get the basic good vs bad analogy of the coin though.

I have spoken with God quite a few times. I know for a fact that he exists. And He's told me that those who believe in and pray to angels, but ignore His existance, are talking to demons in disguise. I've seen these "Angels" you speak of. Yes, they LOOK like angels, and ACT like them.... but they still FEEL wrong. I can tell the difference because God gave me Discernment of Spirits. I can TELL when a real demon or a real angel is around.

And I can tell who is under the influence of demons. And I'm ALWAYS right about it.

And it HAS worked over the internet before. Several times.
Really now, yoiu know who is a influenced by demons? Thats nice. But since when is praising the beauty of hte trees or mountains or the sun for its life giving light an evil and awful thing? So what if it isn't your God? And yes, magic that is actually used and not stereotyped is the nature magic. I hardly doubt your Creator's creation is an evil thing ot worship. If thats the case then go ahead and kill everything beautiful and see whats up then. And Aquiella, please try not to take this the wrong way but the Inqusition and Dark ages were in the 1500's, please get your mind to 2009. It'll help. Because ot me you come acorss as a medieval minded perosn on this. A little too zealous and I thought your GOd didn;t like them so much.  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:27 pm
Ricette Wrote:
Aquiella Wrote:
Very good ShideKnight! Your inkling is correct. We have fallen so far from the Lord, compared to Moses and Abraham and them, that it's a miracle in itself that we can still TALK with God!

And Magic is the perversion that Satan brought about. Miracle is something that comes Directly from God.

Magic is very different from Miracles though. So much farther apart than a simple two-sided coin. Ultimate Evil vs. Ultimate Good. They are opposite ends of the universe!! I do get the basic good vs bad analogy of the coin though.

I have spoken with God quite a few times. I know for a fact that he exists. And He's told me that those who believe in and pray to angels, but ignore His existance, are talking to demons in disguise. I've seen these "Angels" you speak of. Yes, they LOOK like angels, and ACT like them.... but they still FEEL wrong. I can tell the difference because God gave me Discernment of Spirits. I can TELL when a real demon or a real angel is around.

And I can tell who is under the influence of demons. And I'm ALWAYS right about it.

And it HAS worked over the internet before. Several times.
Really now, yoiu know who is a influenced by demons? Thats nice. But since when is praising the beauty of hte trees or mountains or the sun for its life giving light an evil and awful thing? So what if it isn't your God? And yes, magic that is actually used and not stereotyped is the nature magic. I hardly doubt your Creator's creation is an evil thing ot worship. If thats the case then go ahead and kill everything beautiful and see whats up then. And Aquiella, please try not to take this the wrong way but the Inqusition and Dark ages were in the 1500's, please get your mind to 2009. It'll help. Because ot me you come acorss as a medieval minded perosn on this. A little too zealous and I thought your GOd didn;t like them so much.


I would argue that it IS our God. If you worship God by respecting a prophet or directly through his creation, or give him millions of faces to express each portion of his will, it's all the same.  

divineseraph

divineseraph's avatar


Neferet -House of Night-

Neferet -House of Night-'s avatar

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:36 am
ShideKnight Wrote:
Thanks, Aquiella ^_^

Well the thing is, which is right, what it says on religeoustolerance.org, or what is stated in the Bible, and what has been the practice for... ages, now?

Nature is considered fallen in Christianity. Therefor, what comes from nature, is not strait from God.

Honestly I don't know if I would say that magic always comes strait from Satan, but what I do know is that if it doesn't come strait from God, than it's not a power that we should be relying on.
Nature hasn't fallen from Christianity. It's humanity that has fallen. Nature will always remain the same and be perfect if humanity chooses to take care of it. And if and when humanity falls off the face of the planet, nature will reclaim what is her's in 500 years or so.

There's a neat little program on National Geographic called Population Zero that actually talks about it. If you have the channel I recommend you watch it. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Also the Bible has been in practice for 2000 years. Whereas the practice of witchcraft has been in practice for more than 10,000 years. Which do you think is right? And religioustolerance.org is to help other people of different religions, be more tolerant and understanding of the religions that oppose theirs. It's a nifty little site to do research on all kinds of religions and not deal with the bias that Christian-only sites or Pagan-only sites and etc may give you.  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:40 am
Dark Angel Rai Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
Thanks, Aquiella ^_^

Well the thing is, which is right, what it says on religeoustolerance.org, or what is stated in the Bible, and what has been the practice for... ages, now?

Nature is considered fallen in Christianity. Therefor, what comes from nature, is not strait from God.

Honestly I don't know if I would say that magic always comes strait from Satan, but what I do know is that if it doesn't come strait from God, than it's not a power that we should be relying on.
Nature hasn't fallen from Christianity. It's humanity that has fallen. Nature will always remain the same and be perfect if humanity chooses to take care of it. And if and when humanity falls off the face of the planet, nature will reclaim what is her's in 500 years or so.

There's a neat little program on National Geographic called Population Zero that actually talks about it. If you have the channel I recommend you watch it. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Also the Bible has been in practice for 2000 years. Whereas the practice of witchcraft has been in practice for more than 10,000 years. Which do you think is right? And religioustolerance.org is to help other people of different religions, be more tolerant and understanding of the religions that oppose theirs. It's a nifty little site to do research on all kinds of religions and not deal with the bias that Christian-only sites or Pagan-only sites and etc may give you.


Genesis 4:17 talks about the earth being cursed because of Adam eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I suppose it isn't mentioned many other places (at least not that I've come across, but it sounds reasonable to me), I think your right in saying that humanity has fallen more than nature in general has, though.

So, I've heard about programs like that one. I don't have cable where I live though, so chances are I won't get a chance to see it. Oh well.

I'm not going going to judge religion based on age... also, I just realized something: back 10,000 years ago, you could just as easily claim that the people who were practicing witchcraft were scientists, practicing what they thought was the logical way to go about things like scientists do today. It's just kind of interesting... drawing tradition back that far seems kind of bogus to me. How do you tell the difference between the ideas that became a part of witchcraft today, the ideas that became part of science, and the ideas that became a part of another system of belief and faith?

And, while I respect that people put together that website... it makes a lot of sense to me that we shouldn't be relying on power that does not come directly from God.

So, why is the website right?  

ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar


Neferet -House of Night-

Neferet -House of Night-'s avatar

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:30 pm
ShideKnight Wrote:
Dark Angel Rai Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
Thanks, Aquiella ^_^

Well the thing is, which is right, what it says on religeoustolerance.org, or what is stated in the Bible, and what has been the practice for... ages, now?

Nature is considered fallen in Christianity. Therefor, what comes from nature, is not strait from God.

Honestly I don't know if I would say that magic always comes strait from Satan, but what I do know is that if it doesn't come strait from God, than it's not a power that we should be relying on.
Nature hasn't fallen from Christianity. It's humanity that has fallen. Nature will always remain the same and be perfect if humanity chooses to take care of it. And if and when humanity falls off the face of the planet, nature will reclaim what is her's in 500 years or so.

There's a neat little program on National Geographic called Population Zero that actually talks about it. If you have the channel I recommend you watch it. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Also the Bible has been in practice for 2000 years. Whereas the practice of witchcraft has been in practice for more than 10,000 years. Which do you think is right? And religioustolerance.org is to help other people of different religions, be more tolerant and understanding of the religions that oppose theirs. It's a nifty little site to do research on all kinds of religions and not deal with the bias that Christian-only sites or Pagan-only sites and etc may give you.


Genesis 4:17 talks about the earth being cursed because of Adam eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I suppose it isn't mentioned many other places (at least not that I've come across, but it sounds reasonable to me), I think your right in saying that humanity has fallen more than nature in general has, though.

So, I've heard about programs like that one. I don't have cable where I live though, so chances are I won't get a chance to see it. Oh well.

I'm not going going to judge religion based on age... also, I just realized something: back 10,000 years ago, you could just as easily claim that the people who were practicing witchcraft were scientists, practicing what they thought was the logical way to go about things like scientists do today. It's just kind of interesting... drawing tradition back that far seems kind of bogus to me. How do you tell the difference between the ideas that became a part of witchcraft today, the ideas that became part of science, and the ideas that became a part of another system of belief and faith?

And, while I respect that people put together that website... it makes a lot of sense to me that we shouldn't be relying on power that does not come directly from God.

So, why is the website right?
I'm going to answer it bottom to top. Don't ask why, I'm just being weird. XD

Anyways, Religioustolerance is right imo because it paints more of an accuracte depiction of what Paganism and other religions are. When Christians talk about paganism (no offense) but there tends to be a lot of bias and the picture they paint is inaccuracte and often malicious. Whether magic comes directly from God or it doesn't or it indirectly does, is unknown. Some say it comes from God whether it is directly or indirectly. Some say it doesn't. Who's to say for sure. God's prolly they only that knows that, we humans can assume that it didn't come from God or vice versa (remember a**/u/me=makes an arse out of me and you.). But I think that the Bible doesn't really have all of God's plan down. I still think it's what egotistical humans think could be God's plan. There are infinite possibilities to what God may want. Again who's to say. I for sure am not to say, hell I'm trying to make sure I live the next day, finding out what I want to do for a career and live life happily.

And Witchcraft could very well be the science of their time, not because it was logically right but because witchcraft delves in the unknown, much like science. Witchcraft is in fact about what we don't know and many people that didn't understand the unknown were afraid of it and shunned it, much like Christians and the Jews of that time (and even today.) Fear often comes from what we don't know and don't understand and that fear can often turn into hate and when humanity hates something, sometimes they must snuff that fear by killing it. And that's what happened to most of the pagans that didn't convert.

Oh and with that program I think you can order the DVD of it online. I'm not sure though. I think you can do that with the History Channel. (When I'm not working or if it's on the weekend I watch the History Channel and NatGeo almost religiously. and people wonder why I'm knowledgeable on certain things. smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif )  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:56 pm
Dark Angel Rai Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
Dark Angel Rai Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
Thanks, Aquiella ^_^

Well the thing is, which is right, what it says on religeoustolerance.org, or what is stated in the Bible, and what has been the practice for... ages, now?

Nature is considered fallen in Christianity. Therefor, what comes from nature, is not strait from God.

Honestly I don't know if I would say that magic always comes strait from Satan, but what I do know is that if it doesn't come strait from God, than it's not a power that we should be relying on.
Nature hasn't fallen from Christianity. It's humanity that has fallen. Nature will always remain the same and be perfect if humanity chooses to take care of it. And if and when humanity falls off the face of the planet, nature will reclaim what is her's in 500 years or so.

There's a neat little program on National Geographic called Population Zero that actually talks about it. If you have the channel I recommend you watch it. smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Also the Bible has been in practice for 2000 years. Whereas the practice of witchcraft has been in practice for more than 10,000 years. Which do you think is right? And religioustolerance.org is to help other people of different religions, be more tolerant and understanding of the religions that oppose theirs. It's a nifty little site to do research on all kinds of religions and not deal with the bias that Christian-only sites or Pagan-only sites and etc may give you.


Genesis 4:17 talks about the earth being cursed because of Adam eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I suppose it isn't mentioned many other places (at least not that I've come across, but it sounds reasonable to me), I think your right in saying that humanity has fallen more than nature in general has, though.

So, I've heard about programs like that one. I don't have cable where I live though, so chances are I won't get a chance to see it. Oh well.

I'm not going going to judge religion based on age... also, I just realized something: back 10,000 years ago, you could just as easily claim that the people who were practicing witchcraft were scientists, practicing what they thought was the logical way to go about things like scientists do today. It's just kind of interesting... drawing tradition back that far seems kind of bogus to me. How do you tell the difference between the ideas that became a part of witchcraft today, the ideas that became part of science, and the ideas that became a part of another system of belief and faith?

And, while I respect that people put together that website... it makes a lot of sense to me that we shouldn't be relying on power that does not come directly from God.

So, why is the website right?
I'm going to answer it bottom to top. Don't ask why, I'm just being weird. XD

Anyways, Religioustolerance is right imo because it paints more of an accuracte depiction of what Paganism and other religions are. When Christians talk about paganism (no offense) but there tends to be a lot of bias and the picture they paint is inaccuracte and often malicious. Whether magic comes directly from God or it doesn't or it indirectly does, is unknown. Some say it comes from God whether it is directly or indirectly. Some say it doesn't. Who's to say for sure. God's prolly they only that knows that, we humans can assume that it didn't come from God or vice versa (remember a**/u/me=makes an arse out of me and you.). But I think that the Bible doesn't really have all of God's plan down. I still think it's what egotistical humans think could be God's plan. There are infinite possibilities to what God may want. Again who's to say. I for sure am not to say, hell I'm trying to make sure I live the next day, finding out what I want to do for a career and live life happily.

And Witchcraft could very well be the science of their time, not because it was logically right but because witchcraft delves in the unknown, much like science. Witchcraft is in fact about what we don't know and many people that didn't understand the unknown were afraid of it and shunned it, much like Christians and the Jews of that time (and even today.) Fear often comes from what we don't know and don't understand and that fear can often turn into hate and when humanity hates something, sometimes they must snuff that fear by killing it. And that's what happened to most of the pagans that didn't convert.

Oh and with that program I think you can order the DVD of it online. I'm not sure though. I think you can do that with the History Channel. (When I'm not working or if it's on the weekend I watch the History Channel and NatGeo almost religiously. and people wonder why I'm knowledgeable on certain things. smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif )


Silly. xD

So, why is religioustolerance.org accurate? I suppose because it is what people say about themselves, huh? While your right that Christian sources probably do make the other religions out to be worse than they are as far as the world is concerned, you still have to consider that regardless of what those religions practice and what ideas they are based around, they are still separating people from God, who is the God of Israel.

I want to share something that I read in a book on the Satan, in a section about Idolatries of Good.

The Devil and Dr. Church Wrote:

My thesis is a simple one. The devil exists; by nature is a deceiver, and, accordingly, is manifest where we least expect to find him. In turn, the devil's greatest accomplishment is to lead us to believe that he does not exist; his most successful ruse is to cloak himself in virtue; and his favorite guises commend him in ways that impress us, such as patriotism, nationalism, freedom, tolerance, respectability, sophistication, and piety. The devil's true nature is evil disguised as good - which is simply to say, he almost always appears in drag.



The Devil and Dr. Church Wrote:

It is as easy to fashion a religion out of lofty concepts and principles as it is difficult to practice that religion in such a way that the very good which is being worshiped does not itself become diabolical.

Take tolerance. Now there is a liberal virtue if ever there were one. At its most telling, to tolerate means "to bear with repugnance." The problem is, there are some things so repugnant that we should not bear them. And there are other things, people, or actions that deserve not our tolerance but our active respect. If by tolerance we mean having dinner with our Great Aunt Sally, whom we can't stand, in this limited application it is surely not a bad thing. But what happens when we elevate tolerance into a first principle? Dorothy Sayers tells us: "In the world it calls itself Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair.... It is the sin which believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, loves nothing, hates nothing, finds purpose in nothing, lives for nothing, and only remains alive because there is nothing it would die for."


(It's a really good book. You should read it sometime, if you happen to find one... I think it's out of print)

My point here is that there is a very good reason if you only find a limited amount of acceptance of other religions by Christians.

I suppose that since faith alone made Abraham righteous in God's eye, I can't say for certain that it wouldn't happen again. But since the old covenant came into the world, and even more now that the new covenant came into the world which is all-inclusive, I really don't feel like there is much reason for God to make another road for people to travel. I mean, why? Christianity is open to everyone.

I think I got slightly off-topic. smilies/icon_sweatdrop.gif But how are you judging accuracy?

If you start with believing that there is truth in the Bible, then I think it's easy to come to the same beliefs.

And by the way, I don't think doing a literal reading of the bible is a good way to figure out what God is planning, but I do think that it's a good guide to what God has communicated to people in the past, and how He thinks we should behave. Regardless, it's not an assumption. If there is an assumption anywhere, it's an assumption about the content of the Bible; that it was eaither inspired or written by God through people.

Personally I think that if you want to consider God at all, you have to seek after Him and try to figure out what He wants, and to ask him. So we ask.

Regarding personal direction, I know that's a tough thing too. But really, if I were you, I'd ask Him too. You know, it's funny. As soon as I started wondering what God wanted for me, and started asking, I lost my job and enrolled in school.

As for witchcraft and science... you know, I believe that idea that science and magic are essentially the same is a big idea in magic. It's kind of interesting. Also, I had never actually heard that witchcraft was about the unknown. It always seemed to me to be a system of rituals and evocations that kind of amounted to a science who's rules were not set in stone, which, honestly... sounds kind of wishy-washy to me.

For that matter, I don't see any unknown that compares to God: transcendent and infinite. If you want to study mystery and the unknown, study God.

I suppose fear of the unknown could be a motivation, but you should also remember that whole thing I brought up earlier about submitting to God and not to your own desire for power. I am sure there are quite a few reasons to turn away from witchcraft.

For that matter, why practice it?

smilies/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe I'll have to get that program then. I have a younger little brother... he'd probaly love it.  

ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar


Neferet -House of Night-

Neferet -House of Night-'s avatar

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:49 pm
I'm not going to attempt to quote you Shide. I mean "Gee golly Batman. That's a wall of text!! smilies/icon_surprised.gif I dun think I can do it." So I'm going to address a few points while my ADD isn't bugging me. (And yes I'm silly. That's why you love me, accepted my friend request, and even talk to me. :3 Muwhahaha. -coughs-)

Anywho. Random insanity aside. I say that religioustolerance is accurate is because of what I've learned whether it's from other websites pertaining to paganism and compare that to say....carm.org. Not only that but also what I've learned from the pagans I talk to. In fact many of them recommend you study from that before asking questions and stuff like that.

Now with God, God has been around for centuries, even during the time of Pagans. He prolly showed himself in different ways and in many forms. Who's to say that the God of Israel isn't the God of the Celts, Norse, Aztecs, Mayans, etc? What Jesus did was take those different groups of Jews and tried to unite them, however dividing them from whatever group they are apart of. Unity in this way wasn't something that was praised at first. It's not something that's praised now in some groups. According to some sects, Jesus came to divide not to unite. But in reality he tried to unite everyone under the one God. Which worked sort of. Count a few mishaps with the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation.

But, because of this, the horrid acts of the Catholic Church, pagans now have become more united. Granted they may be of different sects but they are united. For example, in a chatroom I frequent (it's the pagan chat on myspace), if you mess with one member of the chatroom the rest of the room will jump on you. We may believe slightly different but we all act like a family. And we all share a common ground on God. Again you can't really be sure if the pagan Gods and Goddesses are and or are not apart of the same God. You're only mortal. God only knows the answer and those that are blessed with the gift of tolerance and understanding know that answer. Why? Because we are made in God's image, and he is tolerant and understanding despite what people may think.

And I don't think literally believing in the Bible is a good way either. It's a book and in books things aren't usually spelled out for you in plain English. (KJV doesn't even use plain English).

God isn't real unknown. How can something that is known to all and by all, be the unknown. We know who created us, where he created us, when he created us (though a lot of people want to debate that), why he created us (though we question that. I do that a lot at times). All that's missing is the how. All science does is answer the how questions, because God's not going to just hand out the answer like candy, he wants us to figure that out for ourselves. Witchcraft helps with how the human body heals and other things pertaining to humans not God's work on the universe or anything else. What can it do to humans. How do humans heal? Can we use herbs to make wounds better? Can we use herbs to get rid of the things that make us ill (colds, flus, nausea)? If I use voodoo then how will it affect this person. Science answers the how questions pertaining to the Earth and the universe. Witchcraft answers questions pertaining to humanity.

(I dun care what people say, herbs do help you out. It's not bad to suck on ginger root when your nausea. In fact it helps with morning sickness. And drinking herbal tea is essentially healthier for your body. So I don't think God would say anything if you drank an herbal concoction that a witch or a Wiccan made ~__^).

Usually when you submit to it, you do it out of fear. I submit to my mother sometimes out of fear. (She uses the authoritarian method of parenting). People turn away from witchcraft because they get led away by something else that mystifies them or they are gullible and think everyone is good and end up getting brainwashed to a sect of a different religion and falls prey to what that person tells them and actually believe what that person is telling them even when someone knows it's not true. (Actually happened to this girl that I know in the Christian chat on myspace. She talks with these older women that she thinks are her mothers in Christ so to speak (on of them at least is) and the things they tell her are way off. For example one of the women led her to believe that demons took over one of my friends and caused her to be a Mormon, when my friend made her choice of faith on her own, and is happy with her path.)

And I dun think he'll like it. In one part Fifi (a french poodle, I made up the name) is about to get eaten by a lot of bigger dogs. Including a German Shepard. smilies/icon_neutral.gif  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:28 pm
Honestly, my first thought after seeing that post was 'Wall of Text crits you for 10,000 damage'. Yay for gamer geeks.

But there are paragraphs! That counts for a lot.

Also I think I might of hurt my brain because I had to go do brainless stuff for a little bit....

Now, what says that the God of Israel isn't the God of the Celts... well, for one, I don't believe the Celts had one god. My impressions is that they were pantheistic and polytheistic. Second, the God of Israel specifically talks about setting the Israelites aside as His people in the old testament. Remember a couple days ago we went over the properties of God a little bit? But just in the fact that Celts were not monotheistic says they can't be the same, because God always said "You will not have any other gods over me".

Well, the thing about Jesus coming to divide... that's supported in scriptures, but I think that was more a side effect of what He came to do than anything else. He knew that not everyone would accept Him.

Heh... well, what can you say? Apparently it happened with the Israelites too; God gave them a revelation and set them apart. They took it and ran with it, and of course there came to be a whole bunch of different sects. It's the same thing with Christianity. But we're all Christians... a lot of people would call this heresy I think, but I am not even sure if the Gnostic's should be excluded. Lack of information and all, you know.

Really I wonder if that whole unity thing might just be a sign of the times... of the tolerance and acceptance that people have started to have for each other.

From everything that I have seen, the pagan gods and goddesses have always just seemed to be just... superior humans. At least in most cases. I have heard of the occasional cases like Gaia in greek mythology who can't really be taken as human, though I imaging they are all limited to one aspect of life.

Dark Angel Rai Wrote:

You're only mortal. God only knows the answer and those that are blessed with the gift of tolerance and understanding know that answer. Why? Because we are made in God's image, and he is tolerant and understanding despite what people may think.


Nonsense. Being mortal is a good reason to not know everything (or even a lot) about a transcendent and infinite God, but He has revealed Himself to us. Also, why is tolerance and understanding necessary to know the answer? Moreover, why talk about an answer after claiming ignorance here and in other posts?

I don't mean to say that eaither myself or anyone else knows everything or is even smart about these things... but claiming complete and total ignorance is bad, too.

I agree that God is tolerant (to a point) and understanding, but that doesn't mean that it's just open doors for everyone, even the ones who have never said they are sorry for the Sin in their life; never asked God and Jesus for forgiveness and never asked them to be in their life.

As an example, a friend I go to Bible study with has had a long standing argument with one of his sons about something really bad that happened between them. He's really tried to say sorry, and make it up to his son. But his son just won't forgive him; won't accept his father completely again.

This is the point: You need to ask. You need to want that relationship. God is tolerant, forgiving, and understanding; He has made provisions for human frailty.

Okay, but the ethics put forward in the Bible are good ones. It all points towards caring for your God, yourself, your family and, your community. Even when God told the Israelites to take the promised land and kill the people in it, it was over concern for the community and the purity of the community. That, however, was old testament and I really think such things are not necessary today... not with Grace unleashed over us.

Your right, God revealed himself to us. That doesn't mean we know everything though, and by nature, to finite things an infinite thing is unknown. We can only really comprehend God as we comprehend the infinite number line: there's always a number bigger. So there's always something else about God to find out.

I'm not going to deny herbalism and such. I personally take witchcraft to be more of the magic side of things, though I suppose properly it could include herbalism and such... you'd know better than me, anyways. But magic is putting ones own will above God's, which is idolatry of sorts.

Fear is a reason, yes. I don't know if it's the most common. I hope it's not the most common. As for turning away from witchcraft, I guess it just shows how much they believed it was worthwhile in the first place. The same thing happens everywhere.

And as for the Latter Day Saints... well, that's an entire new discussion. smilies/icon_blaugh.gif

It's largely the finer points of theology anyways, I think. I'm not sure if it's important or not.  

ShideKnight

ShideKnight's avatar


Neferet -House of Night-

Neferet -House of Night-'s avatar

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:13 am
Lol. Yeah. Gaming Nerds unite XD. And it's cool. My points are prolly going to be over the place. I'm half-asleep.

Anywho. The Celts were one of the first to adopt worship of a deity or deities. Granted polytheism has different Gods and Goddesses but again who's to say that God couldn't show himself in the forms of the Gods and Goddesses. Now Israelites weren't the first people to adopt to monotheism. There was a cult in Egypt, led by King Tut's father when his father was ruler, that adopted to montheistic belief. They believed that this Amut (I think that's his name) was the one true God. Which could be the basis of what we think Jesus could be or what the Abrahamic God could be.

Tolerance and understanding are the stepping stones to achieving true peace. If we as humans are tolerant and understanding towards others, then we can be closer to achieving peace and unity. I'm idealistic. Leave me alone. -.-

People prolly didn't ask Jesus or God for forgiveness because they unconsciously knew that God is with them no matter what they do. And that he forgives them even if they don't ask for it. One of the principles is to forgive those that have harmed you even though they themselves didn't ask for forgiveness. To ask God for forgiveness means to me that God is being hypocritical and not following his own word and law, if the Bible is his word and law.

I've had my share of things thrown at me, and I only forgive those that have shown to me that are worthy of my forgiveness and will not do that deed again. It's hard for humans to forgive others because we are imperfect, we hold grudges against people thinking once this grudge has been completed or our revenge has been completed they think they will be happy. When that isn't the case.

Humanity claims ignorance by claiming that God is this hateful God and if you don't do xyz he'll send you to Hell or damn you or something else. I mean come on. We know God is a benevolent God. He's a caring God. etc. That's being ignorant about who God truly is. But again we can't know God's plan because God could change his plan. Sure God is unchanging in the way he presents himself. But who's to say he can't change his plan. smilies/icon_neutral.gif

And LSD, meh I dun care what people say. The basic definition of a Christian is that you accept Jesus as lord and savior. And they pretty much do that. They're just backwards.  
Reply
Debate and Discussion

Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 6 7 8 9 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games