titles and changed perceptions

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

This is a continuation of the durid debate thats has been going on for a whyle now.

In this post i want to heap your opinions that are non bias,non judemental, informed and not angery.

Please put your point forward in a POLITE manner.  

[Loona Wynd]

I have met a very fluffy "druid" in my time. To me Druidry is not a religious system at all. It's an order that no longer maintains it's purpose as we have professionals with degrees in medicine, architecture, lawyers, ect. While I find nothing wrong with the ADF and the other order, I don't think they really know the history of the Druids and as such I don't believe they deserve the title. They should call themselves something else.  

[ncsweet]

Imagine for a moment, that you are on a very specific path, you have worked hard, sacrificed for years so that you could properly attain a particular title within that path. You followed all the rules (and there are very specific rules) that were necessary, practiced everything exactly right, and when the time came you knew that you had earned the right to wear your title proudly. No one could dispute your claim.

Now imagine someone else comes along - they learned about your path from watching a movie, they think they know what it is about, so they go to the library and pick out a random book - and knowing that most of the books that have been written on this subject are misinformed at best - outright lies at worst - odds are that the book they have chosen isn't going to give them the best information on the subject. However, now that they have read this book, and have a completely misinformed view of your path - they claim your title for themselves. No years of hard work, or sacrifice, no proper practice - in fact they don't even think practice is all that important, as long as they believe it to be true - that is all that matters to them. Gods forbid anyone try to tell them different, because after all they read about it in a book - so it must be true.

It should be clear enough who is in the wrong.

It's the same thing when it comes to something like Druidry. How would you feel if someone took a piece of your culture, and completely changed the facts and then tried to claim it for themselves. You'd be pretty upset. Doesn't matter if someone has been using the term for years to mean "X", the fact is that historically and factually it means "Y". Personally I wouldn't want to base my faith, or religious practices on a lie. Not saying that the practices aren't valid, but in claiming to be something that you aren't - it's a lie. I do realize that for the average person, it's not your fault - someone else misappropriated the word long before you did, but you are in a position to stop it, by not using the word to describe yourself, and to educate others that it isn't the best choice of title.

*note: when I say "you", it's a collective you - not any one particular person. sweatdrop  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

I have to agree with what's been said already.

I put emphasis on the fact that druids originated in a closed culture and as such, are not open to be cherry-picked by Americans with entitlement complexes.
You may have some Irish background. Good for you. It does not make you Irish. It does not make you a Celt. And it certainly does not make you a druid!

Co-opting the title druid and giving it a totally seperate, unrelated definition would be akin to going to a specific Native American tribe and telling them that you call yourself a Medicine Man and that you express it by worshiping Zeus and Hera, sacrificing guinea pigs, and reading the runes. Confusion and chagrin is expected.

Now, to take that even further, you go around with your unearned and horridly incorrect title of Medicine Man and you decide that you want to share your faith with the masses. You set up organizations and write tons of books on your religion; the religion of Medicine Man. And lo, soon many people are following the faith of Medicine Man! However, that doesn't negate the fact you have a metric ******** of actual Native Americans who still practice and live the culture and who are saddened, angered, and appalled by the unabashed rape of their culture and of a very important position within it.

Now, let's also turn to the fact that the jobs that a druid covered when they were a living caste...are now covered by seperate, trained professionals. I don't know about you, but I sure as Hel don't want the same guy who designs my house to defend me in court and remove my appendix and then give me a history lesson! There's simply no need for the druid caste to come back. The jobs are taken care of.

I am on the side of the culture who is being ripped off of. I see no good, valid reason to co-opt a title. It is not your place to impose upon a culture just because they have some nice shiny things that you feel you're entitled to play with. You're not.

Organizations like ADF and OBOD are interesting entities, indeed. I'm sure people on those paths find it very fulfilling. No one is really disputing those organizations' abilities to provide meaningful worship structures for people. It is simply the word they chose to call these faiths that is under dispute.

EDIT: And, as with ncsweet, I am using "you" as a general-you, not a specific-you!  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

My viewpoint on the title itself has been covered.

But even apart from that, if we were to grand validity to the term "neo-druid", it doesn't mean anything. It has no definition that isn't already adequately covered by "neo-pagan". The variety of practices from group to group is far too wide and eclectic for the title to have any actual meaning. I have asked many people who identify as druids and they all explain their own order's definition of the word, but fail to explain how that word can also apply to a group whose beliefs and practices differ significanty to their own.

I see no purpose or place for the word in today's society. It has no adequate meaning, thus, why would we need it?  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.
And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Sanguina Cruenta

My viewpoint on the title itself has been covered.

But even apart from that, if we were to grand validity to the term "neo-druid", it doesn't mean anything. It has no definition that isn't already adequately covered by "neo-pagan". The variety of practices from group to group is far too wide and eclectic for the title to have any actual meaning. I have asked many people who identify as druids and they all explain their own order's definition of the word, but fail to explain how that word can also apply to a group whose beliefs and practices differ significanty to their own.

I see no purpose or place for the word in today's society. It has no adequate meaning, thus, why would we need it?

humans need labels to get by, like in music pop, rock, hip hop, r'n'b, it is all music but is very diffrent between the genres.
as is with religon.(you get me lol)  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.

I'm sure you can provide examples, yes?
Can you address the examples given by Sweet and myself? Did you read them, or did you perhaps not understand them and how they apply to the situation?

Quote:

And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?

See, it's not a matter of "Oh the druids' role in Celt society shifted a bit!" The druids were all wiped out. They were killed of by I *think* Roman Christians. The caste was wiped out and replaced with the individual folks who perform the jobs.

And this all pales in comparison to the simple fact that it is not up to YOU or any other non-Celt to reach their sticky, self-entitled hands into Celtic history and try to re-create what a "druid" is/should be.

Why do you folks so desperately NEED to use the word "druid?" It's been established that it has no cohesive definition and in some cases depending on the organisation is contradictory with what the other group does/believes. So how exactly is that helpful for labeling and clarification?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

humans need labels to get by, like in music pop, rock, hip hop, r'n'b, it is all music but is very diffrent between the genres.
as is with religon.(you get me lol)

You're misunderstanding me. What "druid" is in your example is a word that describes both Rhythm and Blues and punk rock. As such, what does it mean?

Labels describe things that are distinct. Druid doesn't describe anything because it is used far too widely. There is no reason for it to exist.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.

But druidry is not a religion. It was never a religion when there were actually druids, and nowadays it is used to describe paths too different to be a religion in itself.

Quote:

And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?

Because it didn't get a chance to change. The druids were killed - they were forcibly removed from their culture and their society. Their role couldn't have evolved into other things, because it became extinct;.  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Violet Song jat Shariff

xXrainbowrazorsXx

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.

I'm sure you can provide examples, yes?
Can you address the examples given by Sweet and myself? Did you read them, or did you perhaps not understand them and how they apply to the situation?

Quote:

And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?

See, it's not a matter of "Oh the druids' role in Celt society shifted a bit!" The druids were all wiped out. They were killed of by I *think* Roman Christians. The caste was wiped out and replaced with the individual folks who perform the jobs.

And this all pales in comparison to the simple fact that it is not up to YOU or any other non-Celt to reach their sticky, self-entitled hands into Celtic history and try to re-create what a "druid" is/should be.

Why do you folks so desperately NEED to use the word "druid?" It's been established that it has no cohesive definition and in some cases depending on the organisation is contradictory with what the other group does/believes. So how exactly is that helpful for labeling and clarification?

try not to be rude and angery.

Wicca is an example of varying pracices and christianity etc.
within each religon there is a diffrence in how each coven, church, mass, congrigation, community, person practices. most are recognised as ligitimate forms of practice.

and by using the word "druid" it says more about our beliefs and heritage than our role in society, and usually most "druids" are in actual fact "neo-duids","druid" is more of a colloquialism.  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Sanguina Cruenta

xXrainbowrazorsXx

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.

But druidry is not a religion. It was never a religion when there were actually druids, and nowadays it is used to describe paths too different to be a religion in itself.

Quote:

And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?

Because it didn't get a chance to change. The druids were killed - they were forcibly removed from their culture and their society. Their role couldn't have evolved into other things, because it became extinct;.

But I am not refering to the "druid of old" (so to speak) the modernday druidisum is a religon. same as if a small group of people believed in a flying squid/pig it if not your place to say they are wrong.

(by your i mean the general population lol not YOU personally)  

[xXrainbowrazorsXx]

Sanguina Cruenta

You're misunderstanding me. What "druid" is in your example is a word that describes both Rhythm and Blues and punk rock. As such, what does it mean?

Labels describe things that are distinct. Druid doesn't describe anything because it is used far too widely. There is no reason for it to exist.

It is only general to a person who does not have a knowledge to it.(not being offensive)

because to me house,dance,and electronice music all sound the same because it am not that into it, but to some one who is they are compleatly diffrent. smile  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

Violet Song jat Shariff

xXrainbowrazorsXx

The same may be said for many other religons not only druidry.

I'm sure you can provide examples, yes?
Can you address the examples given by Sweet and myself? Did you read them, or did you perhaps not understand them and how they apply to the situation?

Quote:

And as times change so so social orders and roles of professions within a community eg: Barbers were also surgens, priests were able to pass judgement on a criminal,and the pope was higher than the king. As time went on roles change. who is to say that the role of the druid did not change?

See, it's not a matter of "Oh the druids' role in Celt society shifted a bit!" The druids were all wiped out. They were killed of by I *think* Roman Christians. The caste was wiped out and replaced with the individual folks who perform the jobs.

And this all pales in comparison to the simple fact that it is not up to YOU or any other non-Celt to reach their sticky, self-entitled hands into Celtic history and try to re-create what a "druid" is/should be.

Why do you folks so desperately NEED to use the word "druid?" It's been established that it has no cohesive definition and in some cases depending on the organisation is contradictory with what the other group does/believes. So how exactly is that helpful for labeling and clarification?

try not to be rude and angery.

LOL I'm not being rude or angry.
If I were, you'd know it. There are quite a few people in this guild who can vouch for what my anger and rudeness look like. And this ain't it sweetheart.

Quote:

Wicca is an example of varying pracices and christianity etc.

Except, Wicca isn't.
Sure a coven might add things on, but the CORE of practice is still the same.
And Christianity has varying styles of worship, but that is an orthodoxy, not an orthopraxy.

Quote:

within each religon there is a diffrence in how each coven, church, mass, congrigation, community, person practices. most are recognised as ligitimate forms of practice.

I've already pointed out that for a proper Wiccan coven the structure of a ritual has to maintain a very specific core. If the core changes, what one is practicing is no longer Wiccan.
Key word you've used it is *most*. Not all. A group can not believe that Hephastos is their Savior and call themselves Christian. One has to believe that Jesus is their Savior in order to properly be called Christian.

Quote:

and by using the word "druid" it says more about our beliefs and heritage than our role in society,

So, what are the cohesive beliefs of a "druid" that spans both of the major "druid" organizations then? And what makes these beliefs different than generic, Eclectic Neo-pagan Witchcraft? What about these beliefs is specifically druid that sets them apart from other eclectic practices?

And heritage. What kind of heritage would you be displaying by holding such a strong sense of self-entitlement? What does it say about you when you try to proclaim your heritage while at the same time ignoring very important aspects of it? Does your heritage only work for you when it makes you feel like teh sp3shul ch0zen 0n3? And this doesn't even begin to touch on the fact that having heritage does not make one a member of a culture.

Quote:

and usually most "druids" are in actual fact "neo-duids","druid" is more of a colloquialism.

But that still doesn't negate the fact that "druid" was not a religion, and isn't a cohesive religion now.

Quote:

But I am not refering to the "druid of old" (so to speak) the modernday druidisum is a religon.

Again.
List the beliefs of a "druid" that spans both major organisations and sets druidry apart as a specific religion.

Quote:

same as if a small group of people believed in a flying squid/pig it if not your place to say they are wrong.

Depends on what they're basing their belief off of.
UPG and other gnosis? Sure, that's fine.
Going and decontextualizing something from a closed culture? That's not fine.

Quote:

It is only general to a person who does not have a knowledge to it.(not being offensive)

Except, Sanguina has looked into each the ADF and the OBOD. And there's still nothing there that makes either organisation "druid".

Quote:

because to me house,dance,and electronice music all sound the same because it am not that into it, but to some one who is they are compleatly diffrent.

Rather, Electronic is a type, and House and Dance are subset under it.

And this whole "it depends on how far into it you are!" line is dreck. All it says to me about you is that you're into it enough to know the word, but not into it enough to know the history and understand the culture. You don't need to be immersed in a culture to learn its history or the way it works.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

xXrainbowrazorsXx

the modernday druidisum is a religon.

As I have said in my first post, if it was a religion there would be constant ritual forms, or beliefs, that distinguished it as a religion. There aren't.

If you are maintaining that there are, then please list them.

Quote:

same as if a small group of people believed in a flying squid/pig it if not your place to say they are wrong.

I wouldn't have a problem if they worshipped a flying squid. If they worshipped a flying squid and called it druidry, you bet I'd have a problem.

As a matter of fact, I'd also have a problem if they called it Asatru, Wicca, CR, or Christianity. And those actually are religions.