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Setsuna Meioh Tiger

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:42 am
Im not against it. But I've never liked the smell.  
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:28 pm
Personally I like alcohol, and do not think the bible prohibits the drinking of alcohol, although it is against drunkenness.

However...drunkenness is a relative concept. I find the story of the wedding at Cana rather interesting. The Bible says that Jesus turned water into wine and then served it after they had already drunk the rest of the wine. The wedding guest remarked that most people serve their best wine first, and the inferior wine later, but in this case the best was saved until last.

Now why would you serve the best wine first? As you drink a decent amount of wine you taste it less and less (which is why you spit out wine at wine tastings), that is the effect of alcohol on the body. So the guests must have been fairly merry before tasting Jesus' wine. So I don't think more than a few glasses (depending on your tolerance, of course) is bad.

Incidentally that story puts the lie to the idea that Jesus drank unfermented wine - a ridiculous idea that is particularly popular in America for some reason.  

Sybil Unrest

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yashua_freak

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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:30 pm
the bible never says that you cant drink, it says dont get drunk, because as we all know when you get drunk you behave like an idiot...who wants to see their child act like an idiot after becoming intoxicated  
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:48 pm
I personally have chosen not to drink. I am aware that it can become a possible stumbling block for myself...and for others.

I also am in a small position of leadership (working with children) so, I am now held more accountable for my choices.

I have found Proverbs 31:4 - 6 as a good guideline for my choice.

4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
It is not for kings to drink wine,
Or for rulers to desire strong drink,
5 For they will drink and forget what is decreed,
And pervert the rights of all the afflicted.


With this, I do not condem those who choose to drink, for I have good Christian friends that choose to do so. (I know that they do so in moderation.) However, if you are in a place of leadership, you should really consider what kind of influence drinking may have on your judgement and your integrity.  

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:35 pm
Setsuna Lady Pluto Wrote:
Im not against it. But I've never liked the smell.


... smilies/icon_xd.gif

Well, just to throw my opinion in this thread, I dont drink, Ive never been interested in alcohol what so ever, ive never even read what the Bible said about it. It...just didnt have anything to do with me...simple as that.

*Feels abit stupid*  
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:07 pm
It's not fine at all, even in moderation. The Bible advises against it...There are two kinds of wine in the Bible, at least. One is fermented and the other is unfermented. The one that they talk about that's okay to drink is the unfermented...which is really grape juice. It's like the clean meats and the unclean meats too...The Bible says which meats are clean to eat and which aren't...I don't think that Christians who are trying to follow God and what the Bible says should cast aside those parts just because they think they're "Jewish" parts...The whole Bible is for ANYONE who wants to follow God.

The Bible does advise against drinking...It does. It does. It does!

Jesus didn't turn the water into fermented wine...He turned it into unfermented...which is grape juice...Which would most likely taste better and be sweeter... Do you really think that Jesus would work a miracle that goes against his Father's will?

Maybe later I'll have more verses referring to fermented and unfermented beverages.

And again...not putting where you stand in the first post is still just looking for an argument...or a fight of some sort.  

The Lady Ri

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Crimson Raccoon

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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:34 am
Zerotheslayer Wrote:
It's not fine at all, even in moderation. The Bible advises against it...There are two kinds of wine in the Bible, at least. One is fermented and the other is unfermented. The one that they talk about that's okay to drink is the unfermented...which is really grape juice. It's like the clean meats and the unclean meats too...The Bible says which meats are clean to eat and which aren't...I don't think that Christians who are trying to follow God and what the Bible says should cast aside those parts just because they think they're "Jewish" parts...The whole Bible is for ANYONE who wants to follow God.

The Bible does advise against drinking...It does. It does. It does!

Jesus didn't turn the water into fermented wine...He turned it into unfermented...which is grape juice...Which would most likely taste better and be sweeter... Do you really think that Jesus would work a miracle that goes against his Father's will?

Maybe later I'll have more verses referring to fermented and unfermented beverages.

And again...not putting where you stand in the first post is still just looking for an argument...or a fight of some sort.


Zero, I'm glad to see you are devoted to God's word and you model your behavior after its guidance. =) However, I must disagree that there are two different kinds of wine in the Bible; it is simply not true. I'm afraid that somewhere along the line, someone has been misled on the issue, and you have gotten the wrong end of it.

Some religious groups in America, for whatever reason, are completely against drinking alcohol; and so to support their belief they make claims that the Bible completely condemns it. This is a difficult claim to make since the Bible has many examples and verses that support wine as a good thing when taken in moderation. So, they then claim that whenever wine is shown as a good thing in Scripture, it is actually talking about grape juice. But there is no evidence to support their claim, and their teaching is not the mainstream view of what the Scripture means; they are in the minority.

Scholars of the Greek and Hebrew languages that the Bible was written in, who develop the translations of the Bible into English, always translate the word as "wine," in every place it is used. If these linguistic scholars recognized a difference in the use of the word, they would have translated it as "juice" in those places, because that would be the correct translation. But they didn't, because it is talking about real wine, not just juice. When the Bible is translated, it is done by huge teams of language scholars, from a variety of denominations. It isn't just done by a small group of people to support their beliefs, it is done with as many scholars as possible, and they agree on the use of the word wine in the Bible: it is not juice; if it was, they would say "juice" in the translation.

Both the Old and the New Testaments have verses that support drinking wine; and both have verses that speak against it. Alcohol is not an inherently bad thing, but it can easily become a bad thing if it is abused. The Bible teaches that wine, and for that matter any alcoholic drink, is good in moderation, but it is wrong to abuse it. The same exact word for wine is used in both cases, saying it is good as well as speaking against its abuse. To claim that whenever it sounds bad it means alcohol, but whenever it sounds good it means juice, that is adding meanings to the Word of God that simply are not there.


At the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned the water into wine, it really was wine and not juice. This is clear, not only because the word says wine plainly, but because of the description in the story.

Now there were six stone water jars there for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him. - John 2:6-11

The master of the feast says that normally, the good wine is given first and the poorer wine later. This shows that it must have been real wine, because drinking wine weakens the sense of taste; so poorer wine is brought out later because people can't taste it as well anyway. This is why at wine tastings, the taster spits out each sip of wine, because swallowing it would ruin his judgment in tasting the other wines. If Jesus had just turned the water into juice, the master's statement in this passage would not make any sense. The miracle was not going against God's will, because the Old Testament has many verses that support drinking wine.

You [God] cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine.

- Psalm 104:14-15

Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.

- Proverbs 3:9-10

Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. - Ecclesiastes 9:7

In all these verses from the Old Testament, and many more besides, there is no evidence whatsoever that the author is referring to grape juice and not wine. The same exact Hebrew word for wine is used here as in verses speaking against drunkenness. For the verses that speak against wine, the vast majority of the time it is very clear that it's speaking against drinking too much wine, drinking wine too often, or being drunk.

Here's another verse that makes it clear, beyond doubt, that it is speaking of fermented wine and not grape juice:

On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

- Isaiah 25:6

The prophet Isaiah, speaking of a wonderful future day of salvation that God will bring, says that the Lord will provide well-aged wine with a feast. Regular juice does not refine with age, so this cannot possibly be referring to "unfermented" wine.


Also, we know that the Lord's Supper used real wine. Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, criticising them harshly for the way they were abusing the Lord's table - some were making a meal out of the bread and getting drunk off the wine, while others were not able to get anything to participate in the sacrament. Clearly, if the wine was something they were able to get drunk off of, they were using real, fermented wine for the Lord's supper. Paul criticizes them for getting drunk and committing horrible disrespect against the Lord's supper - but he does not criticize them for using fermented wine. That's because they all used fermented wine to celebrate the Lord's supper, as the majority of churches have used fermented wine all the way through Christian history.

In the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not. - 1 Corinthians 11:17-22


So, the conclusion is that the Bible speaks strongly against abusing alcohol and getting drunk; but it is far from condemning all alcohol entirely. It was real fermented wine that Jesus miraculously made out of water, and it was real fermented wine that was used at the Lord's supper. When the Bible says wine, it means wine. Religious leaders who claim that the Bible makes a distinction between unfermented wine and fermented wine are misleading their students; whether deliberately or because of an honest mistake, I cannot speak for all of them. I'm sure many of them have sincerely good intentions; but nonetheless, they are mistaken and it is a harmful and false teaching. We should not deny people anything that God has provided for our enjoyment in moderation. And we must make our judgments on what the Bible teaches based on the Bible itself, not on what any particular teacher or denomination says about it.

A person can choose for themselves to never drink, there is nothing wrong with that choice and the Bible supports such choices. But it is wrong to say that drinking is forbidden, and it is wrong to tell other people that they shouldn't drink.

(unless they're under age) smilies/icon_wink.gif  
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:57 pm
I like a good drink every once in a while.
Alcohol is not this vile evil thing as many of you were taught.
Its not the Devil's drink. Its not the forbidden fruit.
Its a liquid substance that can be fine if you are responsible.
If abused, like clothing is abused as an identity, it becomes a bad thing.
If controlled and not abused, its fine.

I like sweet wines, like Rieslings and Gewurtztraminers, mostly German wines. Eiswein is excellent.  

Vasilius Konstantinos

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The_Lord_is_My_Shepard

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:57 am
I personally against drinking, even in consideration. I believe that it can become an addiction, and it is a temptation to be drunk as well. But in Proverbs 20:1 says "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."  
PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:59 am
Thistle_Whistle Wrote:
I personally against drinking, even in consideration. I believe that it can become an addiction, and it is a temptation to be drunk as well. But in Proverbs 20:1 says "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."


That verse just says it's unwise to be deceived by wine. It's not saying it's wrong to drink wine, only that we shouldn't be deceived by it. What do you do with all the verses that speak highly of drinking wine? (see my previous post for some of them) What about the fact that Jesus drank wine?  

Crimson Raccoon

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Hot lin78

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:46 am
I don't drink because of the many medications I have to take, but I would never drink in public anyway. We're supposed to be examples for the babies who are just starting out in Christ. If my drinking kept one of them from growing because of my drinking, it would be very sad. To keep that from ever happening, I would always drink at home. (How they wouldn't know about that, though, I don't know!)

Hot lin78  
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:01 pm
We are one of the few countries who frowns upon alcoholic beverages. Because we made it voodoo with Temperance movements and turned it into a sin to even take a drink in some counties we in essence have made it into something which God does not find wrong, in moderation.

This is ridiculous. Kids in Germany and Belgium who are Christians think we are idiots. I am right next to them shaking my head at how we made a beverage into the Devil's drink.  

Vasilius Konstantinos

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genbounty

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:52 am
Vasilius Konstantinos Wrote:
We are one of the few countries who frowns upon alcoholic beverages. Because we made it voodoo with Temperance movements and turned it into a sin to even take a drink in some counties we in essence have made it into something which God does not find wrong, in moderation.

This is ridiculous. Kids in Germany and Belgium who are Christians think we are idiots. I am right next to them shaking my head at how we made a beverage into the Devil's drink.

That is because in this culture, people are dumb enough to drink, just to get drunk. Its a cultural thing. In other countries, getting drunk is usually frowned upon, but here its 'cool'. Its sad, really.  
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:30 am
Vasilius Konstantinos Wrote:
We are one of the few countries who frowns upon alcoholic beverages. Because we made it voodoo with Temperance movements and turned it into a sin to even take a drink in some counties we in essence have made it into something which God does not find wrong, in moderation.

This is ridiculous. Kids in Germany and Belgium who are Christians think we are idiots. I am right next to them shaking my head at how we made a beverage into the Devil's drink.
I think you mean taboo. smilies/icon_razz.gif

It's mainly because Americans don't necessarily know how to moderate and we like to indulge in many things. Including the consumption of alcohol.  

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Vasilius Konstantinos

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:54 am
Oh I know, but one thing I have noticed since I moved my family here to Wisconsin its not frowned upon up here except by some religious denominations. As a culture its common for the people here to drink and not get drunk.

Pot on the other hand out here is the big abuse among some of the citizens here.  
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