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divineseraph

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:44 am
Capitalism is the death of the world. Money is the reason we are polluting the land, money is the reason we hire slave laborers in china and indonesia while supporting their cruel dictatorships. Money is the reason we are going to war with random countries, both to control their economies and to sell our weapons from General Electric and Boeing and all the other war profiteers. Money is the reason there are those starving, because their economy is broken and their dollars hold no imaginary value. Money is the reason there are those millions of miles above you, who own all of the food, all of the shelter, all of the medicine, all of the information, all of the transportation and all of the wealth. Money is the reason 36 million people in America alone are having to choose between medicine and food, because minimum wage does not cover enough. Money is the reason people are paid seven dollars an hour to make products that sell several times the amount paid to the worker.

Is this something Jesus would be a fan of, the exploitation of 90% of the population? The senseless hunger and want inherent in a capitalist system? Do not judge by tradition, that since this is the way you know, it must be the one and only way of success. Judge by the facts, by reason, by logic, and by thought.  
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:50 am
What's your Sollution?

Socialism?, because we all know where that leads.

We all know Money is the bane of the world, but untill you give me a better sollution ive my pay check to collect and my goods to buy!  

Three Mile Sprint

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ShideKnight

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:21 pm
Socialism and redistribution of the wealth would work if it weren't for human greed.

It's actually the same with capitalism. They're the same; they're both systems based in the world and therefor somewhat irrelevant to what Jesus taught, I think.  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:24 pm
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)  

divineseraph

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ShideKnight

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:28 pm
divineseraph Wrote:
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)


I am sure that kind of system would be good, as long as the people who lived under it were honest and trustworthy... the thing is, what a given person living in such a system would have to believe for it to work out okay is so different from what human nature is.

I think this is the way the Jews were being taught to live at first, and the way Jesus thought we should live. But I think I would have to do some more thinking about it before I presented a good argument.  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:57 am
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)


I am sure that kind of system would be good, as long as the people who lived under it were honest and trustworthy... the thing is, what a given person living in such a system would have to believe for it to work out okay is so different from what human nature is.

I think this is the way the Jews were being taught to live at first, and the way Jesus thought we should live. But I think I would have to do some more thinking about it before I presented a good argument.


Human greed is allowed to flourish through money- It is easier to electronically stockpile money than it is to stockpile food and goods. Removing money would not immediately destroy human greed, but it would make human greed much harder to use.  

divineseraph

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ShideKnight

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:54 pm
divineseraph Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)


I am sure that kind of system would be good, as long as the people who lived under it were honest and trustworthy... the thing is, what a given person living in such a system would have to believe for it to work out okay is so different from what human nature is.

I think this is the way the Jews were being taught to live at first, and the way Jesus thought we should live. But I think I would have to do some more thinking about it before I presented a good argument.


Human greed is allowed to flourish through money- It is easier to electronically stockpile money than it is to stockpile food and goods. Removing money would not immediately destroy human greed, but it would make human greed much harder to use.


I don't know... I think greed is greed, no matter what. The real root of the problem is that one person can value their comfort so highly, or just be so blind that they do not realize that they are causing another person or entire class of people to suffer. This is what needs to change, on a big scale, before we can really change to an effective socialism.

So, are you willing to give up your comfort so someone else can live?  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:15 pm
Yes, it's a nice idea, but wasting energy dwelling on it is ultimately pointless.

You don't see the big picture.

In order for God to return, and prophecy fulfilled, He needs to save us from a corrupt and evil world.

How can He do that if everybody is equal and happy?

Look at the bright side! The worse the planet gets, the closer we are to His return!! And the closer we are to being taken to heaven; a truly perfect paradise!!

Rejoice!! For He is glad!!





Oh. And if you want to be absolutely sure your getting into heaven, check out my topic on the subject.)  

Aquiella

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divineseraph

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:31 pm
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)


I am sure that kind of system would be good, as long as the people who lived under it were honest and trustworthy... the thing is, what a given person living in such a system would have to believe for it to work out okay is so different from what human nature is.

I think this is the way the Jews were being taught to live at first, and the way Jesus thought we should live. But I think I would have to do some more thinking about it before I presented a good argument.


Human greed is allowed to flourish through money- It is easier to electronically stockpile money than it is to stockpile food and goods. Removing money would not immediately destroy human greed, but it would make human greed much harder to use.


I don't know... I think greed is greed, no matter what. The real root of the problem is that one person can value their comfort so highly, or just be so blind that they do not realize that they are causing another person or entire class of people to suffer. This is what needs to change, on a big scale, before we can really change to an effective socialism.

So, are you willing to give up your comfort so someone else can live?


Yes. But I don't think I need to, and here's why. In America, 80% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the population. If we take that 80% and spread it around the other 90% of us, what we have is everyone with well above what we now consider middle class. Even the poorest of poor. If we spread what the world's wealth has, everyone can have, in the entire world, at least what we now consider minimum wage.

The rich do enjoy their comfort, and money is the way to keep the poor needing enough to work in the rich's factories.

Aquiella, are you some kind of idiot? Are you seriously saying what I think you're saying?

Why don't we go ahead and start worshiping satan and eating live babies! The influx of sin and hatred should bring God along even faster! Good idea!

Seriously, try thinking for a change.  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:13 pm
Aquiella Wrote:
Yes, it's a nice idea, but wasting energy dwelling on it is ultimately pointless.

You don't see the big picture.

In order for God to return, and prophecy fulfilled, He needs to save us from a corrupt and evil world.

How can He do that if everybody is equal and happy?

Look at the bright side! The worse the planet gets, the closer we are to His return!! And the closer we are to being taken to heaven; a truly perfect paradise!!

Rejoice!! For He is glad!!





Oh. And if you want to be absolutely sure your getting into heaven, check out my topic on the subject.)


I uh... I get what your saying, but I kind of have this thing with prophesy.... I really don't want Revelations to go through. I know what God is going to do, God will do, and that it's a good thing to do, but if Abraham was able to persuade God down to not destroying Sodom and Gomorrah if he found 10 righteous people there, then could we do something here and save an entire generation or two?

It's just... prophesy is a warning. Maybe it doesn't have to end that way if we as a church can actually get our act together enough to spread the love, you know?

divineseraph Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:
divineseraph Wrote:
Remove money. Have a system where labor is paid by access to a store where all production is kept. (Basically, a supermarket.) Everything within reason is free to be had, assuming you worked to help fill the store up. (Within reason meaning, nobody needs twenty gallons of milk, or seventy light bulbs or five cars to their selves)


I am sure that kind of system would be good, as long as the people who lived under it were honest and trustworthy... the thing is, what a given person living in such a system would have to believe for it to work out okay is so different from what human nature is.

I think this is the way the Jews were being taught to live at first, and the way Jesus thought we should live. But I think I would have to do some more thinking about it before I presented a good argument.


Human greed is allowed to flourish through money- It is easier to electronically stockpile money than it is to stockpile food and goods. Removing money would not immediately destroy human greed, but it would make human greed much harder to use.


I don't know... I think greed is greed, no matter what. The real root of the problem is that one person can value their comfort so highly, or just be so blind that they do not realize that they are causing another person or entire class of people to suffer. This is what needs to change, on a big scale, before we can really change to an effective socialism.

So, are you willing to give up your comfort so someone else can live?


Yes. But I don't think I need to, and here's why. In America, 80% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the population. If we take that 80% and spread it around the other 90% of us, what we have is everyone with well above what we now consider middle class. Even the poorest of poor. If we spread what the world's wealth has, everyone can have, in the entire world, at least what we now consider minimum wage.

The rich do enjoy their comfort, and money is the way to keep the poor needing enough to work in the rich's factories.

Aquiella, are you some kind of idiot? Are you seriously saying what I think you're saying?

Why don't we go ahead and start worshiping satan and eating live babies! The influx of sin and hatred should bring God along even faster! Good idea!

Seriously, try thinking for a change.


Following the example of Jesus requires we come to a place where we understand that the people around us are worth just as much as we are, and that if we have extra, we should give up that extra so that they can live.

It's not a matter of who owns what, it's what you do with what you have. Personal responsibility.

I've heard that statistic too, and it does make me mad... but insisting that your doing things exactly right the way you are is just stupid, especially when there are tons of people everywhere who's lives could benefit from your personal effort and resources.

I dunno... full disclosure? I could stand to take my own advice sometimes. I'm working on it... I guess we just need to be aware that it's not just 'the rich' who are screwing things up. Every person who refuses to do something screws things up.

And... what Aquiella is saying makes sense from the point of prophecy; that's what she meant. Do you really think she was suggesting something like you say? C'mon.  

ShideKnight

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divineseraph

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:00 am
But we could alter the system and give no NEED to donate, just have everyone be the same from the start. There's no need for rich owning multiple lear jets. Personal responsibility has failed us when we have rich outsourcing to countries with dictatorships, for cheap child labor. So I say we take personal responsibility out of the question and change the system so that everyone gets a piece of the pie.

As for Aquellia, the logic seemed to go, disturbingly, like this- "God is supposed to come in hard times. We have hard times now. Therefore, we should not do anything to fix the hard times so that God will come faster."

If we're supposed to keep the world crappy for God, why not actively make it crappier? I mean, that should really get Him on His way.

Seriously, the logic there was so flawed it's ridiculous.  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:01 am
divineseraph Wrote:
But we could alter the system and give no NEED to donate, just have everyone be the same from the start. There's no need for rich owning multiple lear jets. Personal responsibility has failed us when we have rich outsourcing to countries with dictatorships, for cheap child labor. So I say we take personal responsibility out of the question and change the system so that everyone gets a piece of the pie.


That's what the Soviet Union did as I recall, through a revolution. But look where it got them. I'm no historian, but from everything I have heard they did not get a real socialism out of it. They had the power to change and reinstate the government, and it happened without the leaders having a sense of personal responsibility.

Without people realizing that that greed is bad, and that they have a responsibility for their neighbors and their world, any system will be corrupted to something similar to what we have now. I have read that America started out being a country where it's people truly had equal access to resources and a way to make a living. But it's not that way anymore; now we clearly have a so-called 'elite' class, various levels of middle class, and the poor class.

Personal responsibility failed. Too many people forgot our God-given responsibility to those around us.

Quote:

As for Aquellia, the logic seemed to go, disturbingly, like this- "God is supposed to come in hard times. We have hard times now. Therefore, we should not do anything to fix the hard times so that God will come faster."

If we're supposed to keep the world crappy for God, why not actively make it crappier? I mean, that should really get Him on His way.

Seriously, the logic there was so flawed it's ridiculous.


I guess you are kind of right about fixing things, but rest of it is putting words in her mouth, really... Paul wrote a little bit about that idea in Romans as I recall. He basically called it BS, and I agree.  

ShideKnight

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divineseraph

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:17 pm
The soviet union quickly gained a leading class, and started up with a system of classes again. The means of doing this was granting higher pay to politicians- This reallocation of money recreated the classes they had fought to remove.

The money was a definite catalyst, and it still is a catalyst for greed.  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:15 pm
ShideKnight Wrote:

As for Aquellia, the logic seemed to go, disturbingly, like this- "God is supposed to come in hard times. We have hard times now. Therefore, we should not do anything to fix the hard times so that God will come faster."

If we're supposed to keep the world crappy for God, why not actively make it crappier? I mean, that should really get Him on His way.

Seriously, the logic there was so flawed it's ridiculous.


I guess you are kind of right about fixing things, but rest of it is putting words in her mouth, really... Paul wrote a little bit about that idea in Romans as I recall. He basically called it BS, and I agree.[/quote]
Your right, ShideKnight. Thanks for defending me! *huggles* What a cool guy!

And that's not what I meant, although I see what you mean. My point is: why fix it? It's temporary. Yes, we should be concerned and do our best to make the world a nice place, but nothing extreme or drastic. A shift of power and wealth that massive would cause the economy to fall apart. If you DO implement that idea then how do you expect to get those who are greedy and/or rich to give up their massive wealth?

I'm just saying that it's a futile attempt. Why bother? Any change that massive would plunge the planet into chaos. If that happens, then your suggesting that we make the planet worse, which would, theoretically, hasten the Lords return.

What did you call that again? Flawed logic? Perhaps you should examine the ramifications of your own plan before criticizing the plans of others. smilies/icon_wink.gif  

Aquiella

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divineseraph

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:15 pm
Aquiella Wrote:
ShideKnight Wrote:

As for Aquellia, the logic seemed to go, disturbingly, like this- "God is supposed to come in hard times. We have hard times now. Therefore, we should not do anything to fix the hard times so that God will come faster."

If we're supposed to keep the world crappy for God, why not actively make it crappier? I mean, that should really get Him on His way.

Seriously, the logic there was so flawed it's ridiculous.


I guess you are kind of right about fixing things, but rest of it is putting words in her mouth, really... Paul wrote a little bit about that idea in Romans as I recall. He basically called it BS, and I agree.

Your right, ShideKnight. Thanks for defending me! *huggles* What a cool guy!

And that's not what I meant, although I see what you mean. My point is: why fix it? It's temporary. Yes, we should be concerned and do our best to make the world a nice place, but nothing extreme or drastic. A shift of power and wealth that massive would cause the economy to fall apart. If you DO implement that idea then how do you expect to get those who are greedy and/or rich to give up their massive wealth?

I'm just saying that it's a futile attempt. Why bother? Any change that massive would plunge the planet into chaos. If that happens, then your suggesting that we make the planet worse, which would, theoretically, hasten the Lords return.

What did you call that again? Flawed logic? Perhaps you should examine the ramifications of your own plan before criticizing the plans of others. smilies/icon_wink.gif[/quote]

The idea isn't to just let the economy fall apart. It's to TAKE it apart.

It would not result in chaos, for the reasons I have presented. Only through one of your backwards-logic thought imitations could it be misconstrued as such.  
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