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kuntrykid

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:33 am
JJ-Freak Wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Gilwen Wrote:

A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."




You have a good point here
It is the ultimate threat in so many ways
But to fallow through with it
A god like that is not worthy of my praise


If He didn't follow through with it? How much do words deter people? If your parents told you not to come home after curfew or they would ground you, but one day, you were really late and they did nothing, you'd start always coming in late after curfew.

And what about the law. If we didn't take away someone's home for not paying a debt, a lot of people wouldn't pay off their debts... Why aren't you unhappy about people's homes being taken away like that? Are you fuming at the government about them putting people on the street as much as you are fuming at God for punishing wrongs?
Well done.  
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:43 am
Also, what you all appear to be forgetting is that our mortal view of right and wrong is not always true. Whatever God does is true good for that circumstance because it is done by God, and God can do no wrongs. We, as a society, have superimposed this view of God as one who obeys our every foolish whim. Our view of right and wrong is based on what we want to happen, not God's view and God's view (Or shall I say "truth"?) is always good.  

kuntrykid

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lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:53 pm
Gilwen Wrote:
lordstar Wrote:


You're smoke screening. You don't mean "That kind of God is evil." You mean "I don't believe what the Bible says about God.

[quote="Gilwen"]
No, I mean "That kind of God is evil"
Please stop putting words in my mouth
Gilwen Wrote:

The writers must be wrong, because I don't see how their idea of God could be 'good.'"


Or that they made it up
again with the putting words in my mouth
Gilwen Wrote:

But my point is, by saying that God is evil/unkind/unjust if he's the way the Bible says he is, you, sir, are starting the "if" discussion.


ok fine, but at least I formed an if then statement (not that you haven't)
Gilwen Wrote:

And what I'm saying is if God is the way the Bible says he is, he cannot be evil and unjust, and if you find him so, you are wrong.


I can see where your coming from
if the bible says it is so...then it must be so
right? by deffinition god must be holy and just and kind and loving and...

Gilwen Wrote:

You can argue with the Bible's portrayal of God all day, but it's logically bankrupt to assume a truth in the Bible and use it as proof that the God portrayed in the Bible is unjust.


am I reading this right...did you just say that it's logically bankrupt to assume a truth in the bible...like assuming anything in the bible is true...because I didn't...nor have I tried to prove anything

or are you saying that my interpretation of the bible is wrong...that might just be...idk
Gilwen Wrote:

The God portrayed in the Bible is, by definition, just, holy, and benevolent, regardless of what you may feel about his methods. I don't know how to put it more clearly.


that’s fine
just know that I don't agree with the definition

Gilwen Wrote:

All I know is, you find "God is evil" more effective than "I don't believe in the God you preach" because it's more personally insulting to the Christian faith. But you shouldn't try to push buttons; just say what you mean: You don't believe in God, and you think the writers of the Bible got it wrong.

~Gilwen

again your putting words in my mouth
I already through out the "god is evil" comment...why you keep bringing it up is beyond me

and contrary to popular belief...I am not posting just to stir the pot
Gilwen Wrote:

PS I'm constantly amazed at how people who don't believe in the God of the Bible can hate him so much. smilies/icon_wink.gif It reminds me quite a bit of Philip Pullman's views (dingdingding! A comment that's on topic! smilies/icon_xd.gif )


for the record
I don't hate your god
I have much better things to focus my rage on
and who knows one of these days I might do something constructive
how about it...you want to do something constructive? (is this constructive?)

Gilwen Wrote:

PPS According to the Bible, none of us is a "good person," so (again, within the context of the Bible,) no one is undeserving of pain. If you're going to argue the Bible's logic, you gotta play by the rules. If you're going to assume one part (the bit about punishing generations) is true, you have to assume the rest (like the parts about God offering eternal salvation and easing our sorrows) is true as well.

I never said I believed your god was punishing generations nor was I referencing within the context of the Bible
that’s why I used an if then statement smilies/icon_wink.gif

Gilwen Wrote:

PPPS (I know, my postscripts are getting ridiculous)
Quote:
Still, it doesn't justify punishing people for crimes they did not commit

Then you find yourself in a most unjust world, since the consequences of your actions extend beyond yourself. It's the natural order of things that wrongdoing affects others. It's individualistic (and probably Western) to assume that a "good" God would limit consequences to the individual, even though in life our actions clearly affect others.


your right it is individualistic and your also right on how our actions effect others even if they really don't have any choice in the matter (maybe a little)
but think about it for a second
we are not talking about cause and effect
we are talking about vengeance and punishment  
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:34 pm
[quote="Gilwen"]
lordstar Wrote:


It is suffering, it still hurts, and that’s enough for me. It doesn’t have to be the ultimate reality to hurt. People all over the world dedicate their lives to helping others through the day-to-day pains life tosses in their laps. You're not saying their work is meaningless are you?

Gilwen Wrote:

Sorry, one more. Most people in the world endure far more pain than you and I. And most of them believe in a benevolent higher power. And no, I'm not saying pain is good (or neutral). I do think pain affects us profoundly, and it's a good thing to extend kindness to others and ease their burdens. But no, I do not and shall never believe that the goal of life is to ease pain and increase pleasure simply because when life ceases, everything is void.


we were good up until your last statement
I did not say the goal of life was to ease pain and increase pleasure
I said that people dedicate their lives to such tasks...that is all
and even if death was the end to top all ends...was life not at all good while one is alive? Or if death is just a new beginning is trying to get the most of life worthless?
Gilwen Wrote:

I think this all comes to bear in this thread's topic, because the philosophies that are a natural result of humanism are a continuing theme in Philip Pullman's trilogy:


Pullman Wrote:

Her last conscious thought was her disgust at life; her senses had lied to her. The world was not made of energy and delight but of foulness, betrayal, and lassitude. Living was hateful, and death was no better, and from end to end of the universe this was the first and last and only truth.


ok so she lived in hate and died in hate...that’s all I got from that
care to fill in the blanks?
Gilwen Wrote:

Is pain a big deal to us now? Absolutely, and I'm not deaf to the pains of my fellow humans. But I find peace and hope in the fact that the pain we suffer now will increase our reliance on God, our charity toward one another, and our awareness of the richness and perfect joy of heaven.

~Gilwen


So, tell me about your charity and your experience as a civil servant
My experience is that just seeing the smiles of peoples faces makes it all worth the effort.  

lordstar

lordstar's avatar


lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:43 pm
JJ-Freak Wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Gilwen Wrote:

A. Saying "Don't do this; you'll get hurt"
or
B. Saying "Don't do this; your kid will get hurt."




You have a good point here
It is the ultimate threat in so many ways
But to fallow through with it
A god like that is not worthy of my praise


If He didn't follow through with it? How much do words deter people? If your parents told you not to come home after curfew or they would ground you, but one day, you were really late and they did nothing, you'd start always coming in late after curfew.

And what about the law. If we didn't take away someone's home for not paying a debt, a lot of people wouldn't pay off their debts... Why aren't you unhappy about people's homes being taken away like that? Are you fuming at the government about them putting people on the street as much as you are fuming at God for punishing wrongs?


words can have quite an effect on people
my parents told me to be home at a cretin hour...and I was home at that hour

as for the law
the law is blind
we have designed it that way
I work to change the laws to minimize such tragedy

now, you do have a point in that people may not pay off their debts
however, the government doesn't just through people onto the streets
there are shelters and services provide to help people get back on their feet. Are these services adequate? They could use some help that’s for sure. So what can we do to help? Think about it

I do feel for those who have lost their home but I am also doing something about it...It might not be much or directly related but more so as a community we are the ones who make the difference.  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:23 am
Quote:
words can have quite an effect on people
my parents told me to be home at a cretin hour...and I was home at that hour

as for the law
the law is blind
we have designed it that way
I work to change the laws to minimize such tragedy

now, you do have a point in that people may not pay off their debts
however, the government doesn't just through people onto the streets
there are shelters and services provide to help people get back on their feet. Are these services adequate? They could use some help that’s for sure. So what can we do to help? Think about it

I do feel for those who have lost their home but I am also doing something about it...It might not be much or directly related but more so as a community we are the ones who make the difference.


Not as much effect apparently. God told us not to worship other gods and look how many times the israelites turned away from him after he led them to the promised land. Look how many times we turn from Him in a single day. Words do have a big effect, in a perfect world. But this isn't a perfect world, so there is pain and we use that pain to learn.

Well, hasn't god given a lot for us to get back on our feet? He gave us His Son! His Son died on the cross so we could say "Lord, forgive me" and BOOM we are accepted into heaven! Even shelters ask for more than that a lot! They need name and information. He has given us His bible, His Son, His promise, and His family. And that is a guearantee. It isn't a pick and choose service. As long as you truly love Him, there is no more that to ask forgiveness. How much more can He give to get you back up on your feet? Is it really hard to say sorry? To ask for forgiveness? To get a guarantee? God's process is so far ahead of a shelter, that's for sure.

So I don't know if you are saying that compared to the law, God doesn't give help to those he applies law to, but I find you highly mistaken in that point. Because He gives a bigger leg up to those He has to apply law to that the government of the world EVER could.  

JJ-Freak

JJ-Freak's avatar


lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:32 am
JJ-Freak Wrote:
Quote:
words can have quite an effect on people
my parents told me to be home at a cretin hour...and I was home at that hour

as for the law
the law is blind
we have designed it that way
I work to change the laws to minimize such tragedy

now, you do have a point in that people may not pay off their debts
however, the government doesn't just through people onto the streets
there are shelters and services provide to help people get back on their feet. Are these services adequate? They could use some help that’s for sure. So what can we do to help? Think about it

I do feel for those who have lost their home but I am also doing something about it...It might not be much or directly related but more so as a community we are the ones who make the difference.


Not as much effect apparently. God told us not to worship other gods and look how many times the israelites turned away from him after he led them to the promised land. Look how many times we turn from Him in a single day. Words do have a big effect, in a perfect world. But this isn't a perfect world, so there is pain and we use that pain to learn.

Well, hasn't god given a lot for us to get back on our feet? He gave us His Son! His Son died on the cross so we could say "Lord, forgive me" and BOOM we are accepted into heaven! Even shelters ask for more than that a lot! They need name and information. He has given us His bible, His Son, His promise, and His family. And that is a guearantee. It isn't a pick and choose service. As long as you truly love Him, there is no more that to ask forgiveness. How much more can He give to get you back up on your feet? Is it really hard to say sorry? To ask for forgiveness? To get a guarantee? God's process is so far ahead of a shelter, that's for sure.

So I don't know if you are saying that compared to the law, God doesn't give help to those he applies law to, but I find you highly mistaken in that point. Because He gives a bigger leg up to those He has to apply law to that the government of the world EVER could.


oookkkaay
I said nothing about god in the quote above
nor did I say that words always have a great effect on people
the word I used was "CAN" like "It is possible"
consider a non biblical point of view
looking at the same situation from other points of view can greatly enhance ones own perspective  
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:51 am
Oh. Ok, sorry. I misunderstood your point.

But still, the whole government helps people they apply the law to, God does that too. The whole reason I used the government analogy was because you expressed how wrong it is for God to follow through with punishments.

Well, it seems like you are debating much more with the idea of God applying law than with government applying it.

And whther or not you mentioned God, what do you think this whole debate is about? The fact that you are justifying the actions of government after you called God evil means that my mention of God in my last post was on topic. Obviously you think God taking away homes and wealth of families because they disobeyed His law yet still giving them many chances to repent and live with Him for eternity in splendor is evil while the government taking away homes and wealth from families because they disobeyed the law yet still giving them okay lodgings and good food until they get a job so they can move them out is good. I am not saying that the shelters for poor and such is stupid. I am very pleased that humans are doing something to help one another. But, saying that God's actions are evil whereas government is comendable, in my opinion, is screwed up.

And by the by, I do try to look at it from other people's points of view. Obviously I am no champ at it, but I do it as far as I think I should. But the fact that the biblical lives and mine so greatly parallel, well, of course I'd use that for consider it. And in a world where finding a solid point of view to model is rather harder, I like looking at God's own Word to consider. To follow.  

JJ-Freak

JJ-Freak's avatar


Tarrou

Tarrou's avatar

PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:21 pm
Equating God with government only works if the government in your analogy is a monarchy or dictatorship. If God is punishing people for not obeying his 'laws', then he is acting as a tyrant, rendering his judgment on a world of serfs who never consented to be a part of his kingdom and who are bound by laws that, regardless of whether they are just or not, are beyond their power to change. In a democratic state, however, the government is a social entity empowered by the people to maintain the social contract that we as citizens have entered into with one another. Since the government derives its power from our common consent, we have the power to effect changes in the application and execution of its laws—the exact opposite of God's system of governance.

Of course, if you believe that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious, then my characterization of God as a dictator will make little sense: Since what he decrees to be good is inherently so, how could we object to his right of judgment? I, on the other hand, tend to believe that that which is pious is pious only because it is loved by the gods. With the exception of the biblical injunctions against that which violates an earthly ethic of reciprocity, all of God's little taboos and demands that we fall at his feet and worship his Glory are a fiat morality, as bereft of inherent worth as a paper bill. I reject God's right to punish me for impiety in the same way that I would reject a totalitarian government's right to punish me for insufficient patriotic zeal.  
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:00 pm
JJ-Freak Wrote:
Oh. Ok, sorry. I misunderstood your point.

But still, the whole government helps people they apply the law to, God does that too. The whole reason I used the government analogy was because you expressed how wrong it is for God to follow through with punishments.

Well, it seems like you are debating much more with the idea of God applying law than with government applying it.

And whther or not you mentioned God, what do you think this whole debate is about? The fact that you are justifying the actions of government after you called God evil means that my mention of God in my last post was on topic. Obviously you think God taking away homes and wealth of families because they disobeyed His law yet still giving them many chances to repent and live with Him for eternity in splendor is evil while the government taking away homes and wealth from families because they disobeyed the law yet still giving them okay lodgings and good food until they get a job so they can move them out is good. I am not saying that the shelters for poor and such is stupid. I am very pleased that humans are doing something to help one another. But, saying that God's actions are evil whereas government is comendable, in my opinion, is screwed up.

And by the by, I do try to look at it from other people's points of view. Obviously I am no champ at it, but I do it as far as I think I should. But the fact that the biblical lives and mine so greatly parallel, well, of course I'd use that for consider it. And in a world where finding a solid point of view to model is rather harder, I like looking at God's own Word to consider. To follow.


Ok and one more time
I never said that God was evil...ever
And since we are on the subject of things I have not said
There are some punishments I do not agree with
I do not agree the death penalty, for all that lie in vengeance wake are the mournful cries of those who survive. Now that I think of it...I have said that...a number of times, perhaps not recently enough for some to recall

you are right, apparently God does help his subjects...but not in the same way government does (I will concede your point on this Tarrou)

I'm thinking of the devastation of choosing punishment (oh and eternal hellfire just takes the cake, people tossed aside for eternity like rubbish) over constructive (for lack of better words atm) healing

What does punishment do other than instill fear and hate in the harts of those subject to it
It does nothing more then turn their eyes and blacken their hearts, thoughts of vengeance fill their minds (perhaps not every case yes?)
Perhaps I am too harsh?

"Well, it seems like you are debating much more with the idea of God applying law than with government applying it."

oh how right you are

now last I checked I didn't make this into a biblical debate, however, this is a Christian forum...I should have known

I try to debate outside the confines of the bible but I get dragged kicking and screaming all the way back...It's to be expected I suppose

Why would I post in a Christian forum? You guys are a lot of fun...that is all...a good reason yes?

And what is this about finding a solid point of view to model?
To model? You would settle for a model rather than take a look at the world with your own eyes and try to make your own conclusions? Such a notion is....grrrr...frustrating. Well at least your eyes are open to other people’s perspectives. I commend you for that.  

lordstar

lordstar's avatar


lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:03 pm
Tarrou Wrote:
Equating God with government only works if the government in your analogy is a monarchy or dictatorship. If God is punishing people for not obeying his 'laws', then he is acting as a tyrant, rendering his judgment on a world of serfs who never consented to be a part of his kingdom and who are bound by laws that, regardless of whether they are just or not, are beyond their power to change. In a democratic state, however, the government is a social entity empowered by the people to maintain the social contract that we as citizens have entered into with one another. Since the government derives its power from our common consent, we have the power to effect changes in the application and execution of its laws—the exact opposite of God's system of governance.

Of course, if you believe that the pious is loved by the gods because it is pious, then my characterization of God as a dictator will make little sense: Since what he decrees to be good is inherently so, how could we object to his right of judgment? I, on the other hand, tend to believe that that which is pious is pious only because it is loved by the gods. With the exception of the biblical injunctions against that which violates an earthly ethic of reciprocity, all of God's little taboos and demands that we fall at his feet and worship his Glory are a fiat morality, as bereft of inherent worth as a paper bill. I reject God's right to punish me for impiety in the same way that I would reject a totalitarian government's right to punish me for insufficient patriotic zeal.


Insightful as always my friend  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:14 pm
Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.

Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information.
 

Eaten By Cheese

Eaten By Cheese's avatar


lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:44 pm
Eaten By Cheese Wrote:
Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.

Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information.


List of things not to do:
Yell bomb on an airplane
Yell fire in a crowed building
or otherwise cause mass panic without need (I know its fun but people could get hurt)

anyway the point I’m getting at is that not all censorship is harmful
something about clear and present danger comes to mind
I would think we could agree the above might be beneficial
the problem we face is what is clear and present danger
I don't think the movie is all that dangerous  
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:41 am
lordstar Wrote:
Eaten By Cheese Wrote:
Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.

Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information.


List of things not to do:
Yell bomb on an airplane
Yell fire in a crowed building
or otherwise cause mass panic without need (I know its fun but people could get hurt)

anyway the point I’m getting at is that not all censorship is harmful
something about clear and present danger comes to mind
I would think we could agree the above might be beneficial
the problem we face is what is clear and present danger
I don't think the movie is all that dangerous


good point.
also, hate speach where the people cant walk away- thus causing a riot... all of these are felonies according to the supreme court.  

promised_child

promised_child's avatar


lordstar

lordstar's avatar

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:39 pm
promised_child Wrote:
lordstar Wrote:
Eaten By Cheese Wrote:
Banning a movie or book is CENSORSHIP. It doesn't matter how bad or offending the material may be--we live in a free country and people should be allowed to read or watch what they want. Our society was founded from a need for freedom of religion, and banning something that may be anti-christian is a step toward combining church and state in having a preference towards Christianity. It doesn't matter what religion or non-religion it is, Christianity or not, CENSORSHIP SHOULD NOT BE TOLERATED. Not only does it contradict the basic freedoms and rights of the Constitution, it contradicts on of the main reasons America was founded. Censorship shows a bias against or towards certain groups.

Neveralone52, you said that you have not seen the movie or read the books. You are therefore making an uneducated guess on how badly the movie/books attack Christianity, if at all. Before you decide whether or not what some people are saying about them is true, see the movie and read the books for yourself. You may find the allegations to be true, you may not, but assertions made by those who can not prove whether or not they are true due to a lack of education on the subject (in this case, seeing the movie) are more likely to be grounded on false information.


List of things not to do:
Yell bomb on an airplane
Yell fire in a crowed building
or otherwise cause mass panic without need (I know its fun but people could get hurt)

anyway the point I’m getting at is that not all censorship is harmful
something about clear and present danger comes to mind
I would think we could agree the above might be beneficial
the problem we face is what is clear and present danger
I don't think the movie is all that dangerous


good point.
also, hate speach where the people cant walk away- thus causing a riot... all of these are felonies according to the supreme court.


a nice addition to the list of things not to do
well done  
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