What is appropriate behaviour for a Witch?

[PathlessPlot]

I am happy for you. Sometimes I wonder how true I am to my own feelings. *sigh* Oh, well. What happens happens. I just hope everything works out. For you and for me.  

[Zsa Zsa]

Leavaros, I can understand what you are trying to say; however you still insist that my need for privacy is a want for secrecy. I find myself constantly repeating what I have already stated. I don't know if my posts are too long or if you are willfully misunderstanding me.

As I had stated before, the two can be separate. Being honest when honesty is needed is important. But being honest for the sake of honesty can mean you're a) looking for attention or b) looking for trouble
I choose not to discuss my religious beliefs with other people who do not share at least some aspects of them (not always, but generally). Not because I am ashamed, not because I have something to hide, but because I am in no way interested in creating confrontation with anyone, especially the never ending fight about religion. It is petty. I do not wish to have people worry about me, to have people waste their energies trying to save me (hehe, I accidentally typo-ed "shave me” how embarrassing! lol) What is the point in forcing an issue when there is no need?
I have nothing to prove. How can you be more honest than that?

Leavaros

I understand where you're coming from. My heart is heavy with your words, but they are yours to give and mine to receive. I shouldn't have to say, however, that had you been more upfront with your reasons for secrecy, it could be better understood.

Okay, I must admit I got a little touchy when I read that.

I don't feel that I should have had to give my background to have anyone to cut me some slack about my personal choice. I regret posting it. Why couldn't it have been understood without digging out the skeletons? Most people don't need the flash cards to understand when someone states in the general. Once I was talking to a friend about an issue about a family member's health. All I needed to say was 4 words which were non-specific, and she got the total meaning, and nothing further needed to be said. I'm not saying I expect the same thing from strangers; however we are social beings, who can take meaning from something that is merely inferred without bold statements.

You see truth as a reality that is not ours to keep. At least truths about yourself, because you already told me that you (and quite honourably) would never out a gay friend without permission... you understand at least the importance of keeping a secret if it is not your own. I don't understand the duplicity. The truth belongs to everyone only if it is about you? Why can’t something be just yours? Why must it be shared? Why do you feel bad when people don’t know your sexual orientation? I could care less if people think I'm straight or gay or anything in between. They can think what they want, I'm not going to proclaim it for all to hear (because some people just don't want to know one way or the other), unless they ask me directly. And generally people are too polite to ask anyways... why? Because people understand that the need for privacy is not an attempt to deceive them. And don’t think I am being blaze about this statement; I have had my sexual orientation questioned many times.

IMHO:

Ultimately I see inherit evils in complete 'honesty' that are not unlike lying. As a liar, you are a manipulator, tricking people into your reality. As a habitual truth teller, you force everyone else into a reality that is not necessarily yours to present or control.
And just as how lying can become habitual, so can truth telling. A liar will lie about other people, compulsively, not just about themselves. I would be careful going down the road of complete honesty, because if honesty becomes habitual, you may cross that line, and tell the secrets that have been entrusted to you. Then you can be viewed as a gossiper, an untrustworthy person, and no one will be honest with you anymore, because you will have displayed a sense of utter lack of control or foresight.
Someone who never tells the truth does not function correctly socially, but to constantly demand full disclosure under the cloak of 'honesty' is not a socially functional either. You should not be a pathological liar, but I think the other extreme is also true. You want to be honest and are prepared to lose family and friends for it. That is your choice. But you can't demand that from everyone else.
What I find disconcerting, you keep pushing total honesty as the best way to treat people in a way that is reminiscent of a Christian telling me that Jesus is the only way. You believe you found the best way, you mean for the best to share that point of view, your heart is in the right place, but you are trying too hard. We none of us are completely right. I never said that we should lie; I only said that complete honesty is not always practical. I would like to end my life with the people I love loving me for being kind, for having self control, capable for judging situations maturely and holding back when necessary. Sometimes being brutally honest is just plain brutal. I do not want all my photographs portray me with my foot in mouth. I feel that the people close to me know who I am without knowing everything about me. I feel that being honest to everyone all the time would actually be dishonest to them and myself about who I actually am. I am cautious and I am gentle, and I like to think things through. We have an inner monolog for a reason.

My Grandmother once told me something that resonates with me strongly "that to be completely open to others runs the risk of losing a large part of yourself" I don't know if you can understand that statement any more than I understand your "any emotion worthy of note begins with openness."

There is good and evil in everyone. Honesty can be good and bad, just as it is easy to cross the line from humility to humiliation. Too much praise becomes flattery, too much criticism become abuse. Everything must remain in balance, everything in moderation.

In conclusion I will state that I can only live what experience has taught me, and that merely what you have gleaned from your life lessons has been different.

I feel that I have said all I can say on the subject, and now that I have spent well over my allotted 2 cents, I will say no more. If I have still not stated my case clearly enough, you may have your rebuts and last says, however the subject is basically closed from my side  

[Leavaros]

I understand that we could talk each other up and down walls with this. I won't push past this, because, indeed, we've both had our two cents, and I would rather not have such a new friendship tarnished by my persistence.

That said, I can summarize my point as "what is practical is not always what is right". Truths related to me I feel are right to share and to disclose because they are mine to tell. Similarly, I respect the wishes of my friends when it comes to secrecy, because, while I don't always agree with them, those truths--their feelings about others, and about themselves--aren't mine to broadcast. There are inherent truths, but we are discussing individual truth. Who and what a person is cannot be compared to the hidden laws of natural science.

I made my decision--I refuse to be anything less than open. Why do I say that openness precedes every emotion worthy of note? You cannot be angry about something you do not know, or sad, or happy. You cannot love or hate something you do not know the truth of, anymore than you can worry about a situation you don't know exists. That's what I mean. Maybe I should have explained that....

I don't like not having the information at hand when asked about a situation. Perhaps that's just one more reason why I choose to be open--because that's how I would choose to be treated. I admit that it wasn't the best choice of words, and I apologize for the edge, but I tire quickly of the "let's reveal one piece of the puzzle at a time". Maybe your friend could have understood, but I just met you. As did many--if not all--of the people who have posted in this thread. By giving only partial information, you only do yourself harm--you're getting half-informed opinions.

Inherent evils in complete honesty? I fail to see where 'evil' can come from truth. Bad things can happen, sure. But evil? As for the "forcing reality onto others", no one is entitled to ignorance. Ever. And no one is entitled to decide ignorance for anyone. If the truth is so harsh that it hurts, that is a sign that corrections need to be made to a situation. Not that the proverbial wool needs to be pulled over your eyes. Situational truth is rectifiable. What is knowledge, if not a method or mode of truth?

I see no evangelism in my words--only reason, backed by more reason, backed by a drive for honesty and the sharing of feelings, no matter what they are. To that end, I fail to see how 'cautious and gentle' gets in the way of honesty. All the better to tell the truth easily, quietly, gingerly. True self-control, true kindness, often require that hard truths be told. That does not mean that they cannot be told gently, or gradually.

You say that I might lack foresight? Truth by its nature illuminates the future. How long will you keep yourself from your family, saying it is for their benefit? And I wonder who will be feeling shortsighted if such a time comes as your family finds out somehow. This at least is undeniable: it's better to face your battles on your own time, in your own turf. I've seen people get outed--I've been outed myself, once--and every one (myself included) regrets not telling their family before they found out, no matter what closet they were in.

And actually, no amount of praise or criticism if given properly and rightfully, can be called flattery or abuse. Take it from a writer who knows both of each well--they are completely different creatures.

But...in a way, I'm glad we had this discussion. At least now we know where each other stands. And isn't that the truth?

Love and Vale,
-Leavaros Dapple  

[Deletemeplease80]

ZsaZsa; I can see your logic in your choices; and perhaps for you personally staying hidden is the right one- I haven't walked in your shoes. I still believe in being as completely honest as possible though- and my personal choice is to hide nothing and be honest and open about my choices and beliefs. I really don't think that being honest means you are looking for trouble or attention. Shouting it to the world or being obnoxious about it- then you could be.

Unless I am honest with people, my family, friends ect- I don't feel they can know, or love the true me. I am sharing myself with them and I owe it to them to be as honest as possible- and I expect no less in return.

I'm not saying there can't be a heavy price for honesty, there can be- which is why it really requires thought and meditation before you make the decision to come forward and trust others. And yes, it can cause friction- believe me I know. While telling the truth and being honest may cause some harm, secrets usually do get out eventually- and will probably cause more harm in the long run. I'd just rather be upfront and hopefully cause the least harm possible.

Anyway, I'm tired and just hoping I made some sense- it's late right now. This is a good discussion though. smile

PS:
@ Leavaros; very very nice writing style- you put your points across quite well. Of course it helps that I agree with much of what you've said- so I'm not biased or anything. lol
Being in High School(I'm guessing?), and being so straight-forward yet not bragging shows alot of maturity and bravery. I think its great that you stood up for yourself.  

[Leavaros]

Oh, Kareena! heart What a beautiful moderation! And thanks for the comment-- redface --I write short stories, poetry, personal essays, even attempted a play once, so I hope that I'm a halfway decent debater.

Yes, I'm a senior in high school. I try really, really hard not to brag--thankfully, I have friends who are willing to put me in my place--and they know I'd return the favor! Hah!

You know, I keep hearing that it's brave and mature of me to be such an open person, and maybe that's true, but...really, I got tired of the closet and all of its nuances, and.... I found out the hard way that no one can hurt me like I can hurt me. Not even a jock/football player better toned than a Greek God.

One thing though...and maybe this is a combination of me being constantly stereotyped as one thing or another, or because I've grown tired of being surprised by people I thought to be one-dimensional, but.... I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Trust doesn't have to be grown, or even made--sometimes, it just is, like the innate trust of infants. I wish we could all just find a little bit of that trust in our fellow man--the world might be a less scary place if we could.

Love and Vale,
~Leavaros Dapple  

[Deletemeplease80]

Leavaros

One thing though...and maybe this is a combination of me being constantly stereotyped as one thing or another, or because I've grown tired of being surprised by people I thought to be one-dimensional, but.... I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. Trust doesn't have to be grown, or even made--sometimes, it just is, like the innate trust of infants. I wish we could all just find a little bit of that trust in our fellow man--the world might be a less scary place if we could.

Very true; people might just suprise us when we are honest with them and actually understand/not be totally shocked etc. People often are more than what we percieve them to be.

For me- trust is a scary issue; because often times trust = pain. But even if we are hurt by others we put our trust in, try not to give up- because there are others out there you can depend on. Just might take time to find them. smile  

[gcfgvjklkhgdhtfhgl]

[quote="Kareena80]
Very true; people might just suprise us when we are honest with them and actually understand/not be totally shocked etc. People often are more than what we percieve them to be.

For me- trust is a scary issue; because often times trust = pain. But even if we are hurt by others we put our trust in, try not to give up- because there are others out there you can depend on. Just might take time to find them. smile



i also find this to be true. every person has more to them then what other people see and sometimes the hide their trueself from everyone because they are afraid to be hurt. trust is also scary for me too., been hurt because i trust someone evenually their true colors shown though.  

[Moody Magic]

Hm. I think appropriate behaviour for a witch should be similar to the behaviour ideally expected from anyone else. Tolerance, kindness, consideration, etcetera. Having read what your friend said though; about proclaiming whatever spellwork or anything else she does, is bad, because well, I think we all know not everyone is so accepting of our faith. Not that it should be completely secretative, but not everyone has to know what you do in your circles. sweatdrop

 

[Nerd Poetica]

There are certain things I would never share with others, just because I wouldn't want to hurt them. If my secret is not harmful to me, but would be detrimental to someone else's mental health, I'm not going to tell them. If they do not need to know, then I wont tell them. If the time comes when they need to know, or are open minded enough to accept it, THEN I will tell them.

I believe that there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes the status quo is best maintained. I know that if I chose to reveal my interest in certain things to a family member, both he and I would be hurt by it. I would be hurt because I knew that I had hurt him.

If your secrets have the ability to hurt others if they remain a secret, then by all means make every attempt to share. But if the truth hurts someone else more than keeping a secret would hurt you, wait. Wait for the best possible moment to reveal it, and save both yourself and your friend a lot of unnecessary heartache.

What I'm saying is that not all secrets are harmful, but many truths can be. Both Leavaros and Zsa Zsa have excellent points and both are right in their own way. We can only do what is right for ourselves, but what is right for one can be completely wrong for another.

Okay, now I'm done ranting!  

[EdanaDesmond]

I can honestly say, I lie about my religion. And every time I do so my heart grows heavy, and I want to cry. But I'm truely scared about speaking up in the small town I live in. As much as I'm afraid, I sometimes want to scream at them all that there is nothing wrong with different religions and yet, when I do say something, the people I care about become fanatics preaching in such a way, that I wonder if I spoke the truth of my religion I would LOSE everything I've worked for. Thankfully there are others in my community that share my faith, and I may speak without fear when we meet. To be able to speak openly without fear...That would be lovely, but I doubt I would speak about it unless I truely trusted a person.

Childern are very impressionable which is why most childern who grow up in a Christiao community usually become Christians themselves without looking for another option in religious practices..I believe that when i have childern that I will hopefully give them as many options as possible, and while I don't know much about other religions I do try to go to different chuches on sunday morning to understand there faith.  

[dark_angel_32189]

@ Capt. Kat: This is just a suggestion, but instead of lying, maybe you could just tell people that you don't wish to discuss it because religion is something personal to you.  

[EdanaDesmond]

Perhaps. The people who matter the most to me know the truth, and I feel badly but not even my parents know how I feel. I mean my father hates people who are gay or have a religion that itsn't centered around "God" I'm honestly scared of his reaction...he becomes violent when he doesn't get his way and currently I have no means of escape. But in every day use, I could honestly say I don't want to talk about my religion with others.  

[Leavaros]

Kat,

A time might come for you as it has for me, when you will become so tired of the secret burdening your heart and angry that you have to keep it--and perhaps even sad that you didn't share it when you had the chance to--that you will find the strength and the courage to come out of the broom closet. And no matter the pain or suffering it might cause, to you or to another, you might very well share it, because it is still a part of you.

And besides, if you don't come out and make the world a more accepting place, who will? If you aren't willing to stand up for your beliefs, no matter how far-flung from home they might be, can you really expect another to? How can you claim any trust or faith at all if you can lie, even to others, about your religion?

I know my path, and I will follow it to its end, no matter the personal sacrifice. But what about you, Kat? Sometimes, it is more difficult to speak than to remain silent. Granted, it might hurt more, too. But it feels good, too, in a way I can't explain.

But I think I've said enough--too much?--for now.

Love and Vale,
~Leavaros  

[Zsa Zsa]

I don't agree (surprise surprise) Kat, how old are you, if you don't mind me asking? If you are underage or completely dependent on your family, I totally understand.
Kat has already mentioned her father can get violent and controlling. Your personal safety is ultimately the most important thing. It is more important than a belief system, because that can always live safely in your heart. She can be open with her family and community after she's independent. Otherwise, what if her father had an extremely negative reaction? What if he forced her to 'quit' Wicca or risk losing everything? Then she will be keeping the secret all over again, except now it is with added problems.

Kat has to evaluate her own situation, because I do not know how her father could react. But I do know abuse, and it never something you should purposely put yourself at more risk for. And you should get out as soon as possible. Now that is a topic to be completely honest about with your community, that takes priority.  

[dark_angel_32189]

Neither of you (Leavaros and Zsa Zsa) are necessarily right or wrong. There's a good and a bad side to everything.