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 Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:38 pm
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| Epona Bride Wrote: |
| I'm pro-choice, but I'm tired of all the Pro-Choice-Must-Kill-Children bitches. They do, indeed seem selfish, and I can see why anybody would be disenchanted with them However, I want to bring to light a side of the pro-choice belief that isn't seen often: Men probably push women into abortions nearly as often as the push them into giving birth. So, yes, I'm pro-choice. But, just as I don't see life as the only choice, I don't see abortion as the only choice. |
agreed
To both you and PersephoneMediocris
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http://pictureserver.funnyjunk.com/pics2/catgamer.jpg
To all Gaians:
I am eventually, at one point or another, going to piss you off
Don't get all huffy when I do, I gave you warning
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Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:22 pm
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Hell. I'll start off like everyone: I'm Pro-Choice.
If I get pregnant and I seriously am not mentally stable to have a child, I have every single right to let it pass away. I feel that every child should be wanted. Not "well they'd be wanted by adoptive parents" but wanted by the ******** mother it came out of, and that's just my own opinion.
How hurtful it would feel to know you were given away because your mom was a crackwhore and couldn't take care of you. This was my friends problem. He was fine until he went into sophomore year, and all of a sudden he said he had no meaning in life. He was a mistake, he wasn't meant to be, his real mother didn't love him, he doesn't know his own blood, and more. God, he was in so much pain, it hurt to see him and when we talked about it I can't help crying. It's like, ********! You put this poor child on earth and he's going through hell!
Junior year pain got the most of him and he had hung himself in the garage, February 20.
But hell, that's one example. I think you should be planned and ready to have a kid, and if you seriously aren't then you aren't! Why the hell would you force yourself if you aren't ready? How the ******** is that selfish? Taking away the woman's rights of abortion is pretty damn selfish.
Then there's the religious point of veiw that nabs everybody. "Its against God's wish..." well.
1. God wasn't married to Mary and she popped out Jesus.
2. God isn't there by your side giving you 100 dollar bills at WalMart to pay for your daipers, clothing, and food.
So how the hell are you going to even support your kid? I think it's irrelevant to being selfish! You can't pay for your kid at all! It'll be going through a world of struggle and suffering, so keeping it from breaking down it's soul like that I would say is a favor.
Now, getting spiritual..."everything happens for a reason". There is a reason the abortion happened. Who knows? The kid grows up becoming a rapist ruining everyone's lives. Eh. Example.
But I think there is nothing at all wrong with abortion. It just depends if you are ready to have a kid (prepared and all and you actually want it), or if you don't even want the kid, or you just aren't prepared and know it'll live a shitty lifestyle.
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:08 pm
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AtGG
http://r.undev.org/?r=63980
Thank you, all of you. :heart:
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:50 pm
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Please visit my thread if you are feeling uneased by Gaia's choice to team up with a sponsor that deliberately excludes a big portion of Gaia's users.
FOR EQUALITY ON GAIA [petition]
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PhaedraMcSpiffy Forum Assistant
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:32 pm
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This has been said before, but it's true: You cannot be against a woman's reproductive rights and still be a feminist.
The right to choose is a basic human right necessary for the equality of the sexes. The alternative is forcing women to remain pregnant and give birth against their will, which is a violation of the most basic right any human being has: bodily domain. Without the right to be the sole person in charge of one's body, women are reduced to second-class citizens.
(As for the pro-life personal, pro-choice political person: You have just earned a lot of respect. It takes courage and integrity to acknowledge the rights of others, even when you disagree strongly with some of their opinions.)
| Spanish Nerd Wrote: |
I'd like to say I'm both. For example, I believe that teengaers screwing around and such who have no business being sexually active should not have the easy way out of abortion.
But why should an innocent rape victim have to give birth to her violater's baby? She's had enough trauma in her life, and now she can't live a normal life and have a potential successful career? I think that abortion should be an available option for instantces such as these.
I guess that if I support this for major situations, then I'm pro-choice. So if a woman wants to end her pregnancy...let her do it. It's her body, not the government's. |
You are not pro-choice, you are pro-punishment.
The fetus conceived by consensual sex is the same as the fetus conceived by rape. The person who has sex is as much a person and has the same right to bodily domain as the person who was raped. You believe in using pregnancy, childbirth, and parenthood to punish people for having sex you disaprove of.
Teens in this society are often subjected to abstinence-only sex "education" that teaches them nothing about contraception. Is it really their fault that they were kept ignorant? They also face financial, social and sometimes legal barriers to decent contraceptives. Is that really their fault?
Besides which, as a young woman and a huamn being I find your stereotyping of teens insulting. I know responsible, intelligent teens and reckless, stupid adults. People can and do make poor decisions and mistakes at any age.
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:53 am
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| PersephoneMediocris Wrote: |
Something I put up in the pro-choice guild a while back:
Why you can't be both feminist and pro-life:
1. In order to be feminist, one has to support women's rights at least to the extent that their rights are equel to those of men.
2. In order to be pro-life (I'm talking about politically, not just for yourself), you have to support a law banning abortion.
3. A law against abortion would give the fetus rights over the woman's body by forcing her to house it and give birth to it despite her own wishes.
4. If the fetus has rights over the woman's body, her body is no longer in her control.
5. If her body is no longer in her control than she is a second class citizen compared to men and non-pregnant women.
6. If a man bears no risk of having his body taken out of his control he has more rights than a woman.
7. Therefor, if you are pro-life you support men having more rights than women, which is the opposite of what a feminist supports.
8. You cannot hold to opposite beliefs at the same time.
9. You cannot be both feminist and pro-life.
I'm against society not allowing a woman to choose. Meaning I'm pro-choice, and I support a woman's right to keep her child too as long as it's her choice. |
I must say this list slightly offends me, because I am Pro-Life (100%) as well as feminist. What is so wrong for me wanting to be protecting the lives of unborn women?
First of all, one of the beauty of being a women is that we CAN bring another life into the world. This should not be looked at as a burden. It makes us, in a way, greater then men. Just because a woman cannot abort her baby does not, in any way mean, she has no control over her body. A pregnante woman can still smoke, they can still drink, they can still do many things. Granted these things are not healthy for their baby, but they can still do it.
And I must agree with Broorel.
| Broorel Wrote: |
The fact that it has somehow become an inaliable right to kill another human for any reason seems repulsive to me. To mask it in "choice" is as ludicris as claiming that a man has a right to rape me because it is his reproductive "choice".
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Just because someone choices to do something, does not mean that makes it right. If Hitler had been a female instead of a male, and choose to kill thousands of jews, would we shrug it off and say, 'It was her choice.'
Part of wanting women to be held equal to men, means that we are going to be held responsibly equal to men in our mistakes as well.
This is just my opinion though.
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:59 pm
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Masturbation - you know you enjoy it. ;)
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:39 pm
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Questing a signature. 10K payment.
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:34 pm
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:07 pm
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| CaraD Wrote: |
I must say this list slightly offends me, because I am Pro-Life (100%) as well as feminist. What is so wrong for me wanting to be protecting the lives of unborn women? |
*laughs* Cute. Worship them before they're born, and after that, ******** 'em!
You are talking about fetuses, my dear. If you cared at all about future women, you'd be pro-choice. Saying that abortion should be anything other than legal, accesable to all and safe is saying that a nonsentient fetus is more important than a thinking, feeling woman.
| Quote: |
| First of all, one of the beauty of being a women is that we CAN bring another life into the world. This should not be looked at as a burden. |
Yes, we CAN give birth, but why should we be forced to if we don't want to? Pregnancy is HARDLY a walk in the park. Until pregnancy becomes easy and 100% safe, or until women can only be pregnant voluntarily, our blessing will also be a curse. It's that simple.
| Quote: |
| It makes us, in a way, greater then men. |
Excuse me? As a feminist, I take offense to that statement. I don't want to be "better", I want to be seen as an equal.
You know who else likes to say that women have "special" rights and are "better" than men? People like Phyllis Schafly. She has made a name for herself telling women that they shouldn't be feminist or advocate equal rights for women, because then they would lose all their special rights. It's absolutely disgusting, and it sickens me that someone who calls themself feminist buys into it.
| Quote: |
| Just because a woman cannot abort her baby does not, in any way mean, she has no control over her body. |
Excuse me? I think that not being able to decide whether or not to carry a fetus inside you for nine moneths and give birth is very big loss of your right to bodily domain! By outlawing abortion to "protect the fetus" they are giving it a right that no person has: The right to use another person's body without their consent!
| Quote: |
| A pregnante woman can still smoke, they can still drink, they can still do many things. Granted these things are not healthy for their baby, but they can still do it. |
Not according to kindly pro-lifers just like you! Read up. To protect their fetuses, women have been thrown in jail for smoking and drinking.
Besides: Smoking? Drinking? ********. Wouldn't everyone rather have the right to screw up their body and waste their money than to make their own medical decisions? 
It's absolutely insulting. Don't expect to advocate taking my rights away and then expect me to be pacified by "Oh, but you can still drink and smoke!"
[/quote]Just because someone choices to do something, does not mean that makes it right. If Hitler had been a female instead of a male, and choose to kill thousands of jews, would we shrug it off and say, 'It was her choice.' [/quote]
You almost have to be a troll.
Killing thousands of sentient people for no reason is nowhere near the killing of one nonsentient fetus because it is inside your body and you do not want it there.
By the way, abortion-holocaust comparisons are not only insulting to holocaust survivors, they make no sense because one of the first things Hitler did after seizing power was make abortion illegal for German women. I can back that up.
| Quote: |
| Part of wanting women to be held equal to men, means that we are going to be held responsibly equal to men in our mistakes as well. |
Funny, 'cause when a man has sex, he doesn't risk losing his right to control what happens to his body.
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PhaedraMcSpiffy Forum Assistant
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:15 am
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| Quote: |
*laughs* Cute. Worship them before they're born, and after that, ******** 'em!
You are talking about fetuses, my dear. If you cared at all about future women, you'd be pro-choice. Saying that abortion should be anything other than legal, accesable to all and safe is saying that a nonsentient fetus is more important than a thinking, feeling woman. |
First of all, when did I say, "after their born ******** them." I care about women, both living and not yet born. Don't put words into my mouth.
Second, those 'Fetuses' grow into thinking, feeling woman. I thought feminisim was all about the rights of woman. A FEMALE fetus is a girl, am I wrong, when it is born it will be a baby girl. She will have a heart beat, brain wave activity, and all things that make scientist declare that a star fish is a living breathing thing. (I say that, because I find it amsusing that a animal that bearly moves, eats, or breaths its entire life is considered more alive then a person growing in a woman's womb.) The word fetus just means "Offspring" in latin.
Here is just one of the many fetus growing timelines I found, I really don't care what you call the baby, but once something's heart is beating and if someone of something should stop that I believe you have just killed it.
| PhaedraMcSpiffy Wrote: |
| Yes, we CAN give birth, but why should we be forced to if we don't want to? Pregnancy is HARDLY a walk in the park. Until pregnancy becomes easy and 100% safe, or until women can only be pregnant voluntarily, our blessing will also be a curse. It's that simple. |
Abortion, Like Pregnancy isn't even 100% safe, so how is that any better?
| PhaedraMcSpiffy Wrote: |
| Excuse me? As a feminist, I take offense to that statement. |
Funny, since I was offended when I was told I can't be both feminist and Pro Life.
| PhaedraMcSpiffy Wrote: |
| Excuse me? I think that not being able to decide whether or not to carry a fetus inside you for nine moneths and give birth is very big loss of your right to bodily domain! By outlawing abortion to "protect the fetus" they are giving it a right that no person has: The right to use another person's body without their consent! |
I'm sorry but what do you think will or might just happen after you have sex. Sex is to reproduce, not just so we can have two minutes of fun, while yes it does feel nice, the entire propuse of sex is to have children. So by deciding to have sex, if you make and mistake and get pregnante, I believe that that is entirely on you.
Also the goverment already tells us, what drugs we can or cannot take, when we can or can't drink, and they also tell us we can't whore out our bodies. How is them telling us we can't abort any different. Wether we like it or not, people are already telling us what we can or can't do with our bodies.
I personally don't worry about it because it not just us, women, that they tell this to. Men are told that they need to go out and fight in wars, and both men and women are told simple things like when we can legally drink, when we can drive, when we can vote, and so on.
| PhaedraMcSpiffy Wrote: |
| Killing thousands of sentient people for no reason is nowhere near the killing of one nonsentient fetus because it is inside your body and you do not want it there. |
Well, in a way your simply killing the child for no reason, are you not? Yeah its in your body, but it didn't ask to be there. Also, it is not just ONE fetus. It is ONE child for EVERY woman who gets a abortion.
So it all kind of tallies up to this...
Number of Jews killed during the Nazi Holocaust - 6,000,000.
Number of babies aborted since 9/11 - 8,100,000
SOURCE
But that aside, my point in using the holocaust wasn't to compare the two. It was to show that just because you CHOOSE to do something doesn't make the right thing.
Example: I choose to be a striper, yes it's illegal, but it is my body, I can whore it out if I would like to right?
| PhaedraMcSpiffy Wrote: |
| Funny, 'cause when a man has sex, he doesn't risk losing his right to control what happens to his body. |
But if a woman gets pregnante and has the baby, the man does gain the responsibility of paying child support of 18 years!
This is, once again, just how I feel about it. I feel I have the right to support both women as we gain more respect in the world, but to also assure that we are not killing our next generation of women who will continue fighting for our rights once we are gone.
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Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:55 pm
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I had a nice, long, source-laden reply all typed up, and then accidentally hit the "exit tab" button in Firefox instead of selecting the tab. 
| CaraD Wrote: |
| Second, those 'Fetuses' grow into thinking, feeling woman. I thought feminisim was all about the rights of woman. A FEMALE fetus is a girl, am I wrong, when it is born it will be a baby girl. She will have a heart beat, brain wave activity, and all things that make scientist declare that a star fish is a living breathing thing. |
It doesn’t matter what it "could" be. That is not the current situation. Right now a woman is pregnant and doesn't want to be pregnant. Right now that fetus is all of a clump of cells that doesn't do anything but exist.
Consider this: I am a potential senior citizen. If the circumstances are right, I will live to my senior years and earn a good deal of income to keep me going. Hopefully Social Security will still be around and the government will have taken 10% of my income and stuck it into my SS account. So, why can’t I have that money now?
| Quote: |
| (I say that, because I find it amsusing that a animal that bearly moves, eats, or breaths its entire life is considered more alive then a person growing in a woman's womb.) The word fetus just means "Offspring" in latin. |
Sucks for the Romans. The current medical definition of a fetus is "A developing unborn offspring of an animal that gives birth to its young (as opposed to laying eggs). From approximately three months after conception the offspring take on a recognisable form (all parts in place, etc.). In human development, the period after the seventh or eighth week of pregnancy is the foetal period."
Sorry, modern medicine > origins of a word.
Also, we aren't arguing that they're more alive; we're arguing that they're more sentient. Big difference. Sentience is self-awareness. A starfish knows that it exists and has enough awareness to know to get food and stay away from predators. A newborn infant can't even do that, let alone a fetus.
| Quote: |
| Here is just one of the many fetus growing timelines I found, I really don't care what you call the baby, but once something's heart is beating and if someone of something should stop that I believe you have just killed it. |
Nice pro-life propaganda site. Next time you should use Medline Plus.
Your opinion has no bearing in a medical- and legal-oriented debate. You can think that a heartbeat is enough reason to not kill something, but that doesn't really do much for your argument if you have nothing other than your opinion to argue against abortion.
| Quote: |
| Abortion, Like Pregnancy isn't even 100% safe, so how is that any better? |
You're right. Abortion isn't 100% safe, it's 99.7% safe.
Also, you're 12 times more likely to die from pregnancy than you are from abortion. Yeah, abortion's real dangerous.
| Quote: |
| I'm sorry but what do you think will or might just happen after you have sex. Sex is to reproduce, not just so we can have two minutes of fun, while yes it does feel nice, the entire propuse of sex is to have children. So by deciding to have sex, if you make and mistake and get pregnante, I believe that that is entirely on you. |
Prescriptive fallacy. Nature does not prescribe an intended purpose for sex; the purpose is what the people engaging in it make it to be. If Suzie Down the Lane has sex to create fetuses, then the purpose (to her) is to make zygotes. If Jane At the Bakery has sex for the orgasm, then the purpose (to her) is to orgasm.
Basically, the purpose of sex is subjective and varies from person to person.
| Quote: |
| Also the goverment already tells us, what drugs we can or cannot take, when we can or can't drink, and they also tell us we can't whore out our bodies. How is them telling us we can't abort any different. Wether we like it or not, people are already telling us what we can or can't do with our bodies. |
If you're going to use the government as your moral compass and use it as an infallible back-up, you have no right to protest the legality of abortion.
| Quote: |
| I personally don't worry about it because it not just us, women, that they tell this to. Men are told that they need to go out and fight in wars, and both men and women are told simple things like when we can legally drink, when we can drive, when we can vote, and so on. |
But only women can get pregnant, so outlawing abortion only affects women (directly, anyway). Only women wouldn't be able to control what goes on in their bodies. And the only reason for outlawing abortion would be to protect a non-sentient clump of cells that only has the potential to be something, as opposed to outlawing drinking for people under 21 so they don't do permanent damage to their still-developing brains.
I don't know about you, but I'm very glad that the government tells us when we can drive. Because I don't want a 3300 pound vehicle in the control of a drunk or a tweenager, thanks.
| Quote: |
| Well, in a way your simply killing the child for no reason, are you not? |
I would suggest actually knowing what you are talking about before entering a debate. Women don't get abortions for the hell of it. Who wants to get a vaccuum stuck up their cooch for no reason?
| Quote: |
| Yeah its in your body, but it didn't ask to be there. |
She didn't ask it be there either. A middle school life science course will tell you that conception is not voluntary.
| Quote: |
| Also, it is not just ONE fetus. It is ONE child for EVERY woman who gets a abortion. |
A child is a person aged 2-12.
| Quote: |
So it all kind of tallies up to this...
<insert inaccurate statistics here> |
Once again, Holocaust =/= abortion. ******** the numbers. The fact that you're still comparing the genocide of millions of people because of their faith, sexual orientation and lifestyle to the termination of a pregnancy shows just how ignorant you are. Unlike the victims of the Holocaust, fetuses are unconscious throughout pregnancy and cannot feel pain. They are completely unaware of what is happening to them, and the Holocaust is considered an atrocity not just because of the numbers, but because of the sheer inhumanity of how the victims were treated and the reasons for which they were murdered.
| Quote: |
| But that aside, my point in using the holocaust wasn't to compare the two. |
That's why you lined the numbers up next to each other and explained the similarities between the two, right?
You were comparing them hon, whether you meant to or not. Backpedal faster.
| Quote: |
| It was to show that just because you CHOOSE to do something doesn't make the right thing. |
Er, it was nothing like that. And you could have used a much less offensive and ignorant analogy, but you went the emotional ploy route instead.
| Quote: |
| Example: I choose to be a striper, yes it's illegal, but it is my body, I can whore it out if I would like to right? |
Go for it.
| Quote: |
| But if a woman gets pregnante and has the baby, the man does gain the responsibility of paying child support of 18 years! |
OH NOES! TEH POOR MENZ!!!1 Less spending money, teh horror!
(Unless he walks away like so many men do.)
Did it ever occur to you that your finances aren't a part of your bodily domain? Since your bodily domain encompasses your BODY and your finances encompass...your finances.
It's spelled "pregnant".
| Quote: |
| This is, once again, just how I feel about it. I feel I have the right to support both women as we gain more respect in the world, but to also assure that we are not killing our next generation of women who will continue fighting for our rights once we are gone. |
Because abortion is totally killing off all the future feminists.
Except not. We're back to the potential argument, which simply does not work. How do you know the woman carrying the fetus isn't about to become a great feminist who wouldn't be able to accomplish half as much if she had a baby and had major complications from the pregnancy? You can't base your whole argument around what COULD happen. ******** what might happen. The situation at the moment is a woman with an unwanted pregnancy. THAT'S what we should be basing things on, not what she did in the past or what might happen in the future.
Believe it or not, not all fetuses are girls. There are boy fetuses too. And, shock of shock, boys can be feminists too! Who knew?
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"I could not at any age be content to take my place in a corner by the fireside and simply look on."
I'm a big fan of Eleanor Roosevelt.
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