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Red Kutai's avatar

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New day, new subject; of course anyone who'd like to answer yesterday's question is still more than welcomed to. 3nodding

Quote:
Which ring would you most like to see fixed, and how?


I think "Taunt" is going to be the obvious answer, but I'm going to go with Hornet's Nest, myself - the concept is just fun, but it seems so pitifully wasted on the ring. I'm a bit of a fan of extended DoT effects, though, and I'd like to see Hornet's Nest modified to last longer - something on the order of 20-30 seconds - with the damage-per-second reduced to ~10 (that is, equivalent to the ring's CL). That way it would capture the death-by-a-thousand-cuts trope it's trying for (essentially making it zOMG!'s 'poison' effect), making it more effective in long encounters, like bosses, than in shorter ones...
A Random Act of Terror's avatar

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Well, since you brought it up,

I'd like to see hornet's nest receive the ability to cause a permanent dodge debuff (on the order of -1 per sting or something like that), kind of alluding to the fact that when a bee stings you, it'll call in friends, making you more likely to get stung multiple times.



Outside of that, I know most people think scaredy cat should be able to scare more regularly (especially in DMS), but i think it should stay the way it is, after all, your trying to scare scary things wink
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

A Random Act of Terror
Well, since you brought it up,

I'd like to see hornet's nest receive the ability to cause a permanent dodge debuff (on the order of -1 per sting or something like that), kind of alluding to the fact that when a bee stings you, it'll call in friends, making you more likely to get stung multiple times.



Outside of that, I know most people think scaredy cat should be able to scare more regularly (especially in DMS), but i think it should stay the way it is, after all, your trying to scare scary things wink

Well, the Damage-over-Time effect is already representative of getting stung by multiple bees - that's why I'd favour reducing the damage-per-second (to make each hit feel more like a 'sting'), and simply increasing the number of 'stings' overall. It's arguable that one would have a hard time dodging while being accosted by bees, but I don't think it's necessarily more natural than a Dodge Debuff on any other attack - getting stabbed, chopped, and shot tends to make one less evasive, but we only bother representing it on the effects where it seems particularly suited... sweatdrop
ValKyriePunk20's avatar

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Red Kutai

June 13, 2012
If zOMG! had a 'Horse Ring', how should it work?



*It's a bit late for a reply I know!*
o.o Horse ring, H-O-R-S-E game themed ring. Passive. The more hits you get in a row, the more damage increases. Can be used in junction with the various attack rings. So accuracy is an important factor.



June 14, 2012
Which ring would you most like to see fixed, and how?



I think we all want that Taunt ring to be fixed. But then... DMS would loose all its fun and the skill level of those who have to hold aggro would be lessened. That would be such a mess in the wrong hands. crying Such a hard decision. To fix or not to fix?
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

ValKyrie Ragepunk
*It's a bit late for a reply I know!*
o.o Horse ring, H-O-R-S-E game themed ring. Passive. The more hits you get in a row, the more damage increases. Can be used in junction with the various attack rings. So accuracy is an important factor.

It's never late for a good idea. wink

This is actually reminiscent of a ring I designed around the classic 'flurry of blows' ability - I've always been a fan of the Monk archetype. The premise was that of an attack ring that hit harder (i.e. at a higher Rage Rank) if you'd used it on the same enemy within a certain time limit. This resulted in a ring that was relatively weak in short encounters, but had a stronger effect as the encounter went long.

However, I do like the idea of buff-type ring that works similarly - it allows more room to build around the effect, by stacking up Accuracy buffs and quick rings. I'm not sure if it's really best as a Passive effect; I'm a little biased against Passives altogether (because they're boring), but having this particular effect active constantly seems potentially gamebreaking. Having it as a relatively short-duration (self-only) buff would not only force it to be used more strategically, it would allow the effect to be more visible (the Passive version would only allow near-trivial increases per-use) and would dodge abuse/memory issues by 'reseting' when the duration expires (whereas otherwise, CL 12.0 players could just beat up on thousands of Lawn Gnomes before farming, to maximise the effect 'for free').

Nonetheless, certainly a clever design. 3nodding
Quote:
I think we all want that Taunt ring to be fixed. But then... DMS would loose all its fun and the skill level of those who have to hold aggro would be lessened. That would be such a mess in the wrong hands. crying Such a hard decision. To fix or not to fix?

Do you really think the only fun in DMS is predicated upon it being difficult to hold Aggro? I agree that it would probably alter the dynamics of the gameplay for the area - and possibly facilitate some methods that aren't currently possible - but I'd be reluctant to say it would ruin it. Also, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're getting at about skill level - if it were easier, wouldn't that mean that players with a lower skill level would be able to do it proficiently? I'm not sure I get the complaint. sweatdrop

Still, I think that even if Taunt were 'fixed', it wouldn't be a very good ring - effective, yes, but not particularly interesting, since it outpaces just about anything else that could take its place. I've long felt that Taunt should really be used for 'resetting' Aggro, rather than maintaining it; something that always gets enemies' attention, but doesn't necessarily help the player to keep it. There are already plenty of ways - even effective ones - of accruing Hate; what the game really needs is a ring that lets you immediately steal Aggro...
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Red Kutai


Do you really think the only fun in DMS is predicated upon it being difficult to hold Aggro? I agree that it would probably alter the dynamics of the gameplay for the area - and possibly facilitate some methods that aren't currently possible - but I'd be reluctant to say it would ruin it. Also, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're getting at about skill level - if it were easier, wouldn't that mean that players with a lower skill level would be able to do it proficiently? I'm not sure I get the complaint. sweatdrop

Still, I think that even if Taunt were 'fixed', it wouldn't be a very good ring - effective, yes, but not particularly interesting, since it outpaces just about anything else that could take its place. I've long felt that Taunt should really be used for 'resetting' Aggro, rather than maintaining it; something that always gets enemies' attention, but doesn't necessarily help the player to keep it. There are already plenty of ways - even effective ones - of accruing Hate; what the game really needs is a ring that lets you immediately steal Aggro...



I feel like it would make things harder in somewhere like DMS because from the threads I have seen people think it will take over the "aggro" stealing role of whoever will hold it. I mean that's great and all, but I think initially there will be a period of "let's bring taunt" instead of more players actually testing it's capabilities and weighing the pros and cons.


Well I believe that the Taunt ring would be a fun tool IF we could find a use for it. The ideal is to hold the aggro of the monsters in the room and to sit out of range enough to make them "passive" so the rest of the crew can kill and not gain damage. It would have to be up to the person who may be assigned as "kiter" or "heal tank" to decide how best they would like to implement the use of Taunt. I know that I have thought about it when I am the healer/back up. It would be great to have to, as you said, to reassign aggro during say a bat swarm. Sometimes there is that one little BB that just doesn't want to play nice. Or to pick off a bat from the swarm following the kiter so you can pick them off faster. Adren, Knife, or Hot Foot can accomplish this but sometimes it will not as the "kiter" has too much aggro to compete with. Taunt could accomplish it's purpose by doing just that and I would love to use it then.

Although these are just my experiences in DMS. I am sure you have a better handle on these things than I would. 3nodding

Edit: I always thought that a fixed Taunt ring would immediately steal the aggro of an animated. eek
iWintre's avatar

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Mantis was supposed to KO all enemies and have a really fast recharge
Red Kutai's avatar

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ValKyrie Ragepunk

I feel like it would make things harder in somewhere like DMS because from the threads I have seen people think it will take over the "aggro" stealing role of whoever will hold it. I mean that's great and all, but I think initially there will be a period of "let's bring taunt" instead of more players actually testing it's capabilities and weighing the pros and cons.

That's true of any change that could have a strategic impact on DMS, though - and indeed, it's a self-correcting issue. If players do what you describe, it'll either work or it won't: if it works, there's no problem; if it fails, they'll figure as much out fairly quickly. wink
Quote:
Well I believe that the Taunt ring would be a fun tool IF we could find a use for it. The ideal is to hold the aggro of the monsters in the room and to sit out of range enough to make them "passive" so the rest of the crew can kill and not gain damage. It would have to be up to the person who may be assigned as "kiter" or "heal tank" to decide how best they would like to implement the use of Taunt. I know that I have thought about it when I am the healer/back up. It would be great to have to, as you said, to reassign aggro during say a bat swarm. Sometimes there is that one little BB that just doesn't want to play nice. Or to pick off a bat from the swarm following the kiter so you can pick them off faster. Adren, Knife, or Hot Foot can accomplish this but sometimes it will not as the "kiter" has too much aggro to compete with. Taunt could accomplish it's purpose by doing just that and I would love to use it then.

Although these are just my experiences in DMS. I am sure you have a better handle on these things than I would. 3nodding

Edit: I always thought that a fixed Taunt ring would immediately steal the aggro of an animated. eek

I'd argue that tanking enemies into a 'passive' state is anything but ideal - I believe that the fact that enemies go 'passive' at all is a glitch, and if it's not a glitch then it's simply terrible design. Tanking should be about... Well, tanking - actually taking damage better than the rest of the Crew. If all Taunt does is help facilitate people sitting around in corners, I wouldn't suggest fixing it either. sweatdrop

I wouldn't belittle the value of your DMS experiences - I have virtually no DMS experience, so I'm forced to speak from a highly-abstracted point-of-view. Having a more practical perspective to contrast it with is actually an incredibly useful tool - I think - for both of us. 3nodding

And as far as Taunt goes, the fact that it's 'broken' is simply the fact that it doesn't scale with level - at RR1 it currently generates a constant 40 Hate, the equivalent of 40 damage, at every CL. Since damage scales with CL, this means that it's quickly outclassed; the 'fix' would involve making it scale, generating some 480 Hate at CL 12.0. However, this only allows a player to accrue Hate; it doesn't steal Aggro. Even fixed, it's quite possible for one player to have enough Hate that it requires several uses of Taunt to steal it back - the only benefit it has over damaging rings is that it would do so faster. What I'd like to see the ring do would be to 'reset' the values on the target's Hate list, and then grant more Hate toward the user; this would guarantee that the user always gains Aggro when using the ring, but doesn't particularly help him retain it (because it resets the values). Naturally, that version would require a significantly longer Cooldown.
iWintre
Mantis was supposed to KO all enemies and have a really fast recharge

At first blush, that seems like a bit of an overpowered effect - I can see the flavour of incorporating an 'iai strike' or 'vorpal' effect onto Mantis (possibly just by having it hit much harder on criticals), but simply making it defeat everything seems to make every other attack ring obsolete, no?

Perhaps you could explain a bit more what you mean, because I don't think I fully understood... redface
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Ah well (sorry I can't quote you. too long.), it was a joke. Mantis is a really great ring. 8D
Red Kutai's avatar

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iWintre
Ah well (sorry I can't quote you. too long.), it was a joke. Mantis is a really great ring. 8D

Oh! I see! redface

Tone doesn't transmit well over text, I'm afraid; and indeed, I've seen suggestions that seem just as absurd as that one, on their face - oftentimes, they make better sense once they're fleshed-out. I always give every suggestion - and suggestor - the benefit-of-the-doubt, so if I seem a bit humourless, that's why. sweatdrop

My main issue with Mantis is simply that it doesn't have much of a niche - it competes for the same space that Hack does, even going as far as to have the exact same damage-per-second. While there are some practical distinctions to be made between how the two are best used, the conceptual difference between the two seems underrepresented.

So, while it may have sprung from a joke - like many good ideas seem to - I think the prospect of reducing Mantis normal damage a bit in exchange for more explosive critical hits might actually be viable. It strongly fits the theme of the weapon as a katana, enough so that it would be roughly in-line with the archetypical effect - 'iai strike' - of the Samurai class. It would give players something to 'build around', by stacking Accuracy effects to maximise the chance of hitting with it, which is oftentimes what players who favour the ring expect anyways (I often hear that Mantis lauded for hitting criticals often, despite the fact that it has no technical advantages in that regard). And, of course, it would further distance the ring from Hack, giving each of the two rings a stronger conceptual identity... 3nodding
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Red Kutai
iWintre
Ah well (sorry I can't quote you. too long.), it was a joke. Mantis is a really great ring. 8D

Oh! I see! redface

Tone doesn't transmit well over text, I'm afraid; and indeed, I've seen suggestions that seem just as absurd as that one, on their face - oftentimes, they make better sense once they're fleshed-out. I always give every suggestion - and suggestor - the benefit-of-the-doubt, so if I seem a bit humourless, that's why. sweatdrop

My main issue with Mantis is simply that it doesn't have much of a niche - it competes for the same space that Hack does, even going as far as to have the exact same damage-per-second. While there are some practical distinctions to be made between how the two are best used, the conceptual difference between the two seems underrepresented.

So, while it may have sprung from a joke - like many good ideas seem to - I think the prospect of reducing Mantis normal damage a bit in exchange for more explosive critical hits might actually be viable. It strongly fits the theme of the weapon as a katana, enough so that it would be roughly in-line with the archetypical effect - 'iai strike' - of the Samurai class. It would give players something to 'build around', by stacking Accuracy effects to maximise the chance of hitting with it, which is oftentimes what players who favour the ring expect anyways (I often hear that Mantis lauded for hitting criticals often, despite the fact that it has no technical advantages in that regard). And, of course, it would further distance the ring from Hack, giving each of the two rings a stronger conceptual identity... 3nodding


Blarrrggghhh. Too much words D:

This is why I chose Mantis over Hack. Mantis has a great "slice squishy stuff" sound effect while Hack sounds like metal on metal. EEUUUGGHH. emotion_donotwant
Red Kutai's avatar

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Hopefully it's not too late in the day to try this. sweatdrop
Question of the Day
What theme would you most like to see a new Set designed for?

As I mentioned last week, I've been working on a Cowboy Set that would probably count as my current favourite; not that I'm much of a roughrider, myself... redface
ryry Kenny_McGroot ryry's avatar

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Red Kutai

Hopefully it's not too late in the day to try this. sweatdrop
Question of the Day
What theme would you most like to see a new Set designed for?

As I mentioned last week, I've been working on a Cowboy Set that would probably count as my current favourite; not that I'm much of a roughrider, myself... redface

By Set, I assume you mean a ring set that gives you a stat boost, so...

I would like to have a Hacker Set, as in a computer hacker. The idea is that the set would contain rings that give a player an edge over enemies (which is what hackers do in other mmos). For example, it could consist of:
Hack
Adrenaline
Knife Sharpen
Turtle

It would give a small boost in all categories (accuracy, dodge, willpower, etc.), similar to what the Fitness ring does.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

ryry Kenny_McCormick ryry

By Set, I assume you mean a ring set that gives you a stat boost, so...

I would like to have a Hacker Set, as in a computer hacker. The idea is that the set would contain rings that give a player an edge over enemies (which is what hackers do in other mmos). For example, it could consist of:
Hack
Adrenaline
Knife Sharpen
Turtle

It would give a small boost in all categories (accuracy, dodge, willpower, etc.), similar to what the Fitness ring does.

I think a Set based on traditional MMO hacks would actually be a pretty clever idea; I'd have to do a little research on them to see what sort of effects are common in that regard, but the concept is both interesting and fourth-wall-breakingly-whimsical enough to be a rather good fit for zOMG!.

It would be a little disappointing that Hack doesn't exactly fit, but I think that's mostly acceptable - we might even be able to get away with parodying it via a ring called "h4x" or something, if that wouldn't be too confusing for players. Turtle would obviously fit mechanically - as a 'godmode' ring - but the theme doesn't really fit the set; I'd be interested in looking into how we might create a similar effect without stepping too much on Turtle's toes. Apart from that, I'm familiar with 'vac hacks' from MapleStory (which bring enemies toward a player, making botting easier) which are easy enough to represent in-game (through reverse Knockback), and... That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge... sweatdrop

EDIT: Research didn't return any sites I felt at all comfortable in visiting, so I'll have to rely on hearsay I'm afraid. However, I'm disinclined to actually ask for suggestions, as I'm afraid that might be misconstrued. Anyone reading over this conversation with any ring ideas, however, is certainly encouraged to pose suggestions...
ryry Kenny_McGroot ryry's avatar

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Red Kutai
ryry Kenny_McCormick ryry

By Set, I assume you mean a ring set that gives you a stat boost, so...

I would like to have a Hacker Set, as in a computer hacker. The idea is that the set would contain rings that give a player an edge over enemies (which is what hackers do in other mmos). For example, it could consist of:
Hack
Adrenaline
Knife Sharpen
Turtle

It would give a small boost in all categories (accuracy, dodge, willpower, etc.), similar to what the Fitness ring does.

It would be a little disappointing that Hack doesn't exactly fit, but I think that's mostly acceptable - we might even be able to get away with parodying it via a ring called "h4x" or something, if that wouldn't be too confusing for players. Turtle would obviously fit mechanically - as a 'godmode' ring - but the theme doesn't really fit the set; I'd be interested in looking into how we might create a similar effect without stepping too much on Turtle's toes. Apart from that, I'm familiar with 'vac hacks' from MapleStory (which bring enemies toward a player, making botting easier) which are easy enough to represent in-game (through reverse Knockback), and... That's pretty much the extent of my knowledge... sweatdrop

i couldn't really think of anything else to put in, another debuff would've been too much, since there has to be at least 1 legit attack, so i just used Hack since it's pretty close to the word "hacker" sweatdrop

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