rememberyouhadachance
Lord Fates
I want this thread dead. So I'll blast it with reason.... on another page
Why using weapons makes no sense:
Okay now we've all seen plenty of people complaining about how they can't use their weapons and so forth in the upcoming GBS. And now the most common response is that its unfair to all the newbies joining Gaia. While this is true, it is also incomplete. Using equipment is unfair to each and every Gaian new or old.
Have you ever thought about how using say the Ancient Katana would apply in a gaming sense? First off lets generalize beyond just weapons to equipment in general, since after all there's armor too. Now in most RPGs I've played equipment enhances your basic character statistics. Its well a bonus albeit often an extremely necessary one. However Gaia does not equip items like RPGs do. Now keep that and mind and observe the following exhibits:
A)
B)
C)
D)
Now let's start with Exhibit A. OMG check tat doodz price tag!!! Okay there aren't many Gaians out there able to sport such an avie, even aside from the Halo its got a hefty cost. But let's think about this in game terms.... he's got a lot of crap on. If equipment is to be a bonus then that's a lot of bonus points. How would you feel if you were Exhibit B, and could not hope to beat Exhibit A. Its not even for how old or expensive some of the stuff is, but on how much Exhibit A can cram onto his avie.
Its about Balance.
A game has to be balanced to be fun. Nobody likes it when a game offers tons of choice but only one way to really win, or at least not without undue difficulty. Just giving a straight bonus with the way Gaia works doesn't make sense because along comes Clutterzilla sporting ridiculous amounts of items.
And heck how would you even decide what items give what level of bonuses? How should say an Ancient Katana compare to an Aegis Sword? The former is worth a heck of a lot more at this point, shouldn't all those collectors be paid off with a stronger item? But that is simply an invented value prone to fluctuation, the Aegis Sword and Ancient Katana both cost $2.50 at some point in time. And the Aegis Sword is older then the Katana, shouldn't it have preference then?
Or maybe the values should be arbitrary based on how "awesome" or "battleworthy" an item is, not how old or valuable it is. But what about Exhibit C there?What makes an item good for battle? Exhibit C flies into battle with her mighty Water Meats to beat enemies into submission. What they aren't weapons you say? Well Exhibit C's player thinks they are, not to mention her clothing is protective too. Exhibit C is probably the most representative of what normal Gaian's wear on a daily basis, why should she be at a disadvantage in the GBS because she only has arguable weapons.
And Exhibit D has no weapons at all. Yet looks like a rather classic martial artist type character doesn't he? His weapons are his unhindered fists. If may be the cheapest outfit I created up there, but its also something even the richest Gaian might sport because they think its cool. It still very minimalist though.
So how should we balance these avies against one another if their equipment counts?
Maybe wearing too much should start giving penalties? That way Exhibit A is maybe too slow to move or attack very fast, because all that stuff on trips him up. Or perhaps only a couple of items can actually count. But then that's just shifting the advantage to someone like Exhibit B. Exhibit D is still out in the cold, even if he gets some bonus to speed say for not wearing much, if equipment is the basis for your attack then he's underpowered. And why can't some be either a light martial artist or cluttered monster, why should someone in the middle get the advantage. Okay maybe we can balance the scale so that your equipment level determines your style of play (fast and weak or strong and heavy) but then why should someones' aesthetic choices effect their game play ones?
And it still doesn't resolve what items get what level of bonuses... age isn't a good standard given that it doesn't say whether items are cheap expensive or whatever. Many items people will want to use don't have a real definite cost. And do we really want an arbitrary scale that would leave Exhibits C or D and the like out in the cold because they don't have real armor or weapons?
The only solution I can think of is that equipment becomes only of minor importance. Now wait a damn minute though. To meet most peoples ideas of "using" weapons though they can't just be static pixels on a page, they have to move and dance and what not. Only thing is have you considered how bad that would look? See realistic movement involves the whole body, look at a baseball pitcher for example. Now apply that to Gaia and yes.... every item would need animation and would all have to work in motion with all the other items. And for something of minimal impact on whatever system we are using instead why bother at all?
The shorter version: To put summarize using weapons equipped on your avie is completely unfair to the vast majority of Gaians. Not simply poor newbs but every single Gaian. Don't agree? Then tell me how the examples A, B, C, and D can be equal in power assuming they are all equally experienced and in the same 'class' if their equipment matters. You can't, Gaia has too many items in too many combinations, those items having mechanical significance is impossible to make fair. And punishing Gaian's for how they choose to dress is against the core of what Gaia is.
----Now then I will try to cover some of the more specific objections and alternatives that have been raised on this thread and in other threads on this board----
Why level restricting items solves nothing:
This seems to be a common suggested solution I've seen suggest that you can restrict expensive items so not everybody can use them at the start and thus weapons are a good idea. The problem is this helps only moderately helps a single issue. That of newbies vs oldbies, or almost equivalently rich vs poor. However I urge you to read the above argument again. I only briefly mention the idea of shielding newbies. And not a single example is some fool in starter clothes.
The point is not just ensuring that two level 1 players are on equal footing but that two level 20 players are too. Its going to be vastly easier to raise levels I think then it will be to raise 100,000+ amounts of gold.
Further more level restrictions creates the additional problem of forcing people to dress down. Should someone with a very particular sense of their own style be forced into peasant clothes simply for a mini-game. What if someone wants to RP themselves as... a Cubone from Pokemon? Pokemon advance in levels but change appearance only a few times. Yet what if someone wants to go around as pokemon and can't until they have sufficient level, then have the problem of being underpowered at even later levels. And I didn't pick this example out of a hat, someone has done Cubone. You could be screwing up this persons entire battle experience. Gaia is at least ten time more varied in look then any RPG game, people will be mad at whatever favorites are picked as the best items.
And while it hasn't gotten much focus from me, the economic problems in using MC items are enormous. Right now there are a finite number of katanas along with every collectible item, except the current months. And when that's over there will be a finite number of that item too. Simply restricting access doesn't mean there will be enough for everybody.
Why adding a class/level system onto using weapons doesn't help:
When I poke at people wanting the rings system gone they often seem to be pushing for a more traditional system of classes and levels. I'm handling this idea in two parts.
First off beefing up your character's stats aside from their equipment doesn't eliminate any of the problems introducing items stats into Gaia has. Since any advantage based on appearance no matter how small is still not right. Nor can equipment address all the possibilities.
Let's go back to example D. He would strike most people as a martial artist. Problem is what sort of martial artist? A strict Bruce Lee movie type that uses their fists and body alone, or a DBZ type that can throw out energy blasts all over the place. And will his equipment help his style of play? Sure it might make his fists stronger, but what about his Hadoken?
Okay maybe that can be dealt with, but what if the Monk class is geared for speed when the player wants to be more like Kenpachi Zaraki of Bleach? Kenpachi Zaraki dresses in simple robes and isn't particularly fast, but is nearly invincible to the point he lets opponents have free attacks and shrugs off among other things slashing of his throat. Now that level of invincibility isn't the sort to make a good game, but the closest most RPG fantasy games would have is some mondo buffed knight in heavy armor. Should the player have to undercut his abilities because his defense can't be as maxed out unless he wears armor?
Why a class/level system even without weapons is limited:
Now then I first off have a confession to make.
Once you eliminate all existing and visible items on Gaia from the equation there are other possibilities besides rings. If you make any equipment simply game items that don't can't be equipped on you avie outside of the game you largely eliminate all the problems I have raised. Of course this still means your Ancient Katana is just a bunch of cool looking pixels, I think means this won't satisfy most ring protesters though.
As long as that basic condition is so however there are any number of ways to make a fair game.
The one that comes to mind is a traditional RPG class system. You start a character, and choose to make him a Fighter, Mage, Rogue, Druid, or whatever class there is out there. This is a fine way to play and a classic one going back the godfather (and still best) RPG out there: Dungeons & Dragons.
That doesn't mean its necessarily the best system for Gaia however. Why? Because classes are inherently limiting. If you play D&D with just a Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide plus a Monster Manual or two, you don't capture much a lot of potential characters. Something as simple splitting ones pursuits between different abilities is can be a sub-par way to play. And there are always only so many options, and heaven forbid you level up and take an ability you don't like afterwords. Starting from the bottom because you made a mist bottom is a chore.
----However I can't fully explain why I believe the rings were chosen until we get to the final part of this massive post of doom.....----
And why rings rule:
The ring system is a strong choice for Gaia at a very basic level for two core reasons: Flexibility and Simplicity
These two reasons overlap but I shall try to handle first flexibility and then simplicity. I said before that a class system is inherently limited, this is because it can be very hard to design classes that are sufficiently broad to meet everyone's tastes. Why its easy to say take 10 levels Fighter and 10 is Wizard, that doesn't necessarily allow you to blend both together to be a Magic Knight. Maybe you only want one spell but for it to be a good one or you want a more even mix.
The ring system allows you to take just what you want from any particular area. You can have one spell or several, your choice. Now with eight slots there are some limits to how precise, but then there are also few prerequisites so you don't need to tote around abilities you won't use.
And flexibility doesn't end there. Remember that Gaia expands over time. We get new items, new games, new everything. Its not all good certainly, but the relevant part for the GBS is that it must be ready to have new things over time. How do you add things to a class? You can add choices to someones abilities either as more classes or more abilities in those classes, but there is a problem.
Namely that many people are going to have already made choices, how do they go back if something new works better for them or they simply want try it. Do they have to start from the bottom? You can have a simple additive system, where they just buy whatever ability through some amount of points. But that over time leads to characters powered in every area at the same time, locking off abilities inherent to someone doesn't make much sense. With the rings however its simple, you just switch out a ring or two. As long as you don't sell your old rings you can go back at any time, or use them and the new ones together to create a better character. Yet because you have a limited number of slots there is still a way to balance out being powerful in all areas at the same time.
Now there are other ways to make an flexible system. Here though is where simplicity comes in. In D&D if you aren't happy with the base classes there are prestige and alternate ones, designed around different concepts. Of course to get access to all the abilities you end up with needing a lot of books worth of rules to enable new options. And plenty people find straight core D&D too complicated never mind characters min/maxing with five different source-books.
The ring system while flexible is also simple. You plug in up to 8 rings and play. You can do almost anything from the same basic control setup, no advancement charts or skill trees or levels in various classes. Now its not that things have to be simple, but remember the GBS at its core is a mini-game not the end all of Gaia itself. It should be such that people can play it casually with a minimum of confusion. Gaia is larger then simply the RPG crowd remember. You can maximize your character with exact combinations and add lot of finesse, but the core elements are easy. And they are more distinctive and thus make the GBS different then say any run of the mill RPG system.
Now then in closing I have suppose I have one final point. Remember that rings specifically are an immaterial choice. They are place-holders for abilities more then they are magic rings. They could have been crystals, runes, or multiple names. They could have called the Mantis Ring a Mantis Sword and given it a different icon. As long at it is purely a game item its raises no broader issues. Just because the system is based on rings doesn't mean everyone is Green Lantern. My avie generally wears The Mask, but I choose to present myself as is I am not wearing a mask at all. So use your imagination a bit and appreciate that the rings system allows you to simulate just about anything (or will eventually) with a minimum of fuss and doesn't tie you hand and foot to mistakes you might make.
Why using weapons makes no sense:
Okay now we've all seen plenty of people complaining about how they can't use their weapons and so forth in the upcoming GBS. And now the most common response is that its unfair to all the newbies joining Gaia. While this is true, it is also incomplete. Using equipment is unfair to each and every Gaian new or old.
Have you ever thought about how using say the Ancient Katana would apply in a gaming sense? First off lets generalize beyond just weapons to equipment in general, since after all there's armor too. Now in most RPGs I've played equipment enhances your basic character statistics. Its well a bonus albeit often an extremely necessary one. However Gaia does not equip items like RPGs do. Now keep that and mind and observe the following exhibits:
A)
B)C)D)Now let's start with Exhibit A. OMG check tat doodz price tag!!! Okay there aren't many Gaians out there able to sport such an avie, even aside from the Halo its got a hefty cost. But let's think about this in game terms.... he's got a lot of crap on. If equipment is to be a bonus then that's a lot of bonus points. How would you feel if you were Exhibit B, and could not hope to beat Exhibit A. Its not even for how old or expensive some of the stuff is, but on how much Exhibit A can cram onto his avie.
Its about Balance.
A game has to be balanced to be fun. Nobody likes it when a game offers tons of choice but only one way to really win, or at least not without undue difficulty. Just giving a straight bonus with the way Gaia works doesn't make sense because along comes Clutterzilla sporting ridiculous amounts of items.
And heck how would you even decide what items give what level of bonuses? How should say an Ancient Katana compare to an Aegis Sword? The former is worth a heck of a lot more at this point, shouldn't all those collectors be paid off with a stronger item? But that is simply an invented value prone to fluctuation, the Aegis Sword and Ancient Katana both cost $2.50 at some point in time. And the Aegis Sword is older then the Katana, shouldn't it have preference then?
Or maybe the values should be arbitrary based on how "awesome" or "battleworthy" an item is, not how old or valuable it is. But what about Exhibit C there?What makes an item good for battle? Exhibit C flies into battle with her mighty Water Meats to beat enemies into submission. What they aren't weapons you say? Well Exhibit C's player thinks they are, not to mention her clothing is protective too. Exhibit C is probably the most representative of what normal Gaian's wear on a daily basis, why should she be at a disadvantage in the GBS because she only has arguable weapons.
And Exhibit D has no weapons at all. Yet looks like a rather classic martial artist type character doesn't he? His weapons are his unhindered fists. If may be the cheapest outfit I created up there, but its also something even the richest Gaian might sport because they think its cool. It still very minimalist though.
So how should we balance these avies against one another if their equipment counts?
Maybe wearing too much should start giving penalties? That way Exhibit A is maybe too slow to move or attack very fast, because all that stuff on trips him up. Or perhaps only a couple of items can actually count. But then that's just shifting the advantage to someone like Exhibit B. Exhibit D is still out in the cold, even if he gets some bonus to speed say for not wearing much, if equipment is the basis for your attack then he's underpowered. And why can't some be either a light martial artist or cluttered monster, why should someone in the middle get the advantage. Okay maybe we can balance the scale so that your equipment level determines your style of play (fast and weak or strong and heavy) but then why should someones' aesthetic choices effect their game play ones?
And it still doesn't resolve what items get what level of bonuses... age isn't a good standard given that it doesn't say whether items are cheap expensive or whatever. Many items people will want to use don't have a real definite cost. And do we really want an arbitrary scale that would leave Exhibits C or D and the like out in the cold because they don't have real armor or weapons?
The only solution I can think of is that equipment becomes only of minor importance. Now wait a damn minute though. To meet most peoples ideas of "using" weapons though they can't just be static pixels on a page, they have to move and dance and what not. Only thing is have you considered how bad that would look? See realistic movement involves the whole body, look at a baseball pitcher for example. Now apply that to Gaia and yes.... every item would need animation and would all have to work in motion with all the other items. And for something of minimal impact on whatever system we are using instead why bother at all?
The shorter version: To put summarize using weapons equipped on your avie is completely unfair to the vast majority of Gaians. Not simply poor newbs but every single Gaian. Don't agree? Then tell me how the examples A, B, C, and D can be equal in power assuming they are all equally experienced and in the same 'class' if their equipment matters. You can't, Gaia has too many items in too many combinations, those items having mechanical significance is impossible to make fair. And punishing Gaian's for how they choose to dress is against the core of what Gaia is.
----Now then I will try to cover some of the more specific objections and alternatives that have been raised on this thread and in other threads on this board----
Why level restricting items solves nothing:
This seems to be a common suggested solution I've seen suggest that you can restrict expensive items so not everybody can use them at the start and thus weapons are a good idea. The problem is this helps only moderately helps a single issue. That of newbies vs oldbies, or almost equivalently rich vs poor. However I urge you to read the above argument again. I only briefly mention the idea of shielding newbies. And not a single example is some fool in starter clothes.
The point is not just ensuring that two level 1 players are on equal footing but that two level 20 players are too. Its going to be vastly easier to raise levels I think then it will be to raise 100,000+ amounts of gold.
Further more level restrictions creates the additional problem of forcing people to dress down. Should someone with a very particular sense of their own style be forced into peasant clothes simply for a mini-game. What if someone wants to RP themselves as... a Cubone from Pokemon? Pokemon advance in levels but change appearance only a few times. Yet what if someone wants to go around as pokemon and can't until they have sufficient level, then have the problem of being underpowered at even later levels. And I didn't pick this example out of a hat, someone has done Cubone. You could be screwing up this persons entire battle experience. Gaia is at least ten time more varied in look then any RPG game, people will be mad at whatever favorites are picked as the best items.
And while it hasn't gotten much focus from me, the economic problems in using MC items are enormous. Right now there are a finite number of katanas along with every collectible item, except the current months. And when that's over there will be a finite number of that item too. Simply restricting access doesn't mean there will be enough for everybody.
Why adding a class/level system onto using weapons doesn't help:
When I poke at people wanting the rings system gone they often seem to be pushing for a more traditional system of classes and levels. I'm handling this idea in two parts.
First off beefing up your character's stats aside from their equipment doesn't eliminate any of the problems introducing items stats into Gaia has. Since any advantage based on appearance no matter how small is still not right. Nor can equipment address all the possibilities.
Let's go back to example D. He would strike most people as a martial artist. Problem is what sort of martial artist? A strict Bruce Lee movie type that uses their fists and body alone, or a DBZ type that can throw out energy blasts all over the place. And will his equipment help his style of play? Sure it might make his fists stronger, but what about his Hadoken?
Okay maybe that can be dealt with, but what if the Monk class is geared for speed when the player wants to be more like Kenpachi Zaraki of Bleach? Kenpachi Zaraki dresses in simple robes and isn't particularly fast, but is nearly invincible to the point he lets opponents have free attacks and shrugs off among other things slashing of his throat. Now that level of invincibility isn't the sort to make a good game, but the closest most RPG fantasy games would have is some mondo buffed knight in heavy armor. Should the player have to undercut his abilities because his defense can't be as maxed out unless he wears armor?
Why a class/level system even without weapons is limited:
Now then I first off have a confession to make.
Once you eliminate all existing and visible items on Gaia from the equation there are other possibilities besides rings. If you make any equipment simply game items that don't can't be equipped on you avie outside of the game you largely eliminate all the problems I have raised. Of course this still means your Ancient Katana is just a bunch of cool looking pixels, I think means this won't satisfy most ring protesters though.
As long as that basic condition is so however there are any number of ways to make a fair game.
The one that comes to mind is a traditional RPG class system. You start a character, and choose to make him a Fighter, Mage, Rogue, Druid, or whatever class there is out there. This is a fine way to play and a classic one going back the godfather (and still best) RPG out there: Dungeons & Dragons.
That doesn't mean its necessarily the best system for Gaia however. Why? Because classes are inherently limiting. If you play D&D with just a Player's Handbook and the Dungeon Master's Guide plus a Monster Manual or two, you don't capture much a lot of potential characters. Something as simple splitting ones pursuits between different abilities is can be a sub-par way to play. And there are always only so many options, and heaven forbid you level up and take an ability you don't like afterwords. Starting from the bottom because you made a mist bottom is a chore.
----However I can't fully explain why I believe the rings were chosen until we get to the final part of this massive post of doom.....----
And why rings rule:
The ring system is a strong choice for Gaia at a very basic level for two core reasons: Flexibility and Simplicity
These two reasons overlap but I shall try to handle first flexibility and then simplicity. I said before that a class system is inherently limited, this is because it can be very hard to design classes that are sufficiently broad to meet everyone's tastes. Why its easy to say take 10 levels Fighter and 10 is Wizard, that doesn't necessarily allow you to blend both together to be a Magic Knight. Maybe you only want one spell but for it to be a good one or you want a more even mix.
The ring system allows you to take just what you want from any particular area. You can have one spell or several, your choice. Now with eight slots there are some limits to how precise, but then there are also few prerequisites so you don't need to tote around abilities you won't use.
And flexibility doesn't end there. Remember that Gaia expands over time. We get new items, new games, new everything. Its not all good certainly, but the relevant part for the GBS is that it must be ready to have new things over time. How do you add things to a class? You can add choices to someones abilities either as more classes or more abilities in those classes, but there is a problem.
Namely that many people are going to have already made choices, how do they go back if something new works better for them or they simply want try it. Do they have to start from the bottom? You can have a simple additive system, where they just buy whatever ability through some amount of points. But that over time leads to characters powered in every area at the same time, locking off abilities inherent to someone doesn't make much sense. With the rings however its simple, you just switch out a ring or two. As long as you don't sell your old rings you can go back at any time, or use them and the new ones together to create a better character. Yet because you have a limited number of slots there is still a way to balance out being powerful in all areas at the same time.
Now there are other ways to make an flexible system. Here though is where simplicity comes in. In D&D if you aren't happy with the base classes there are prestige and alternate ones, designed around different concepts. Of course to get access to all the abilities you end up with needing a lot of books worth of rules to enable new options. And plenty people find straight core D&D too complicated never mind characters min/maxing with five different source-books.
The ring system while flexible is also simple. You plug in up to 8 rings and play. You can do almost anything from the same basic control setup, no advancement charts or skill trees or levels in various classes. Now its not that things have to be simple, but remember the GBS at its core is a mini-game not the end all of Gaia itself. It should be such that people can play it casually with a minimum of confusion. Gaia is larger then simply the RPG crowd remember. You can maximize your character with exact combinations and add lot of finesse, but the core elements are easy. And they are more distinctive and thus make the GBS different then say any run of the mill RPG system.
Now then in closing I have suppose I have one final point. Remember that rings specifically are an immaterial choice. They are place-holders for abilities more then they are magic rings. They could have been crystals, runes, or multiple names. They could have called the Mantis Ring a Mantis Sword and given it a different icon. As long at it is purely a game item its raises no broader issues. Just because the system is based on rings doesn't mean everyone is Green Lantern. My avie generally wears The Mask, but I choose to present myself as is I am not wearing a mask at all. So use your imagination a bit and appreciate that the rings system allows you to simulate just about anything (or will eventually) with a minimum of fuss and doesn't tie you hand and foot to mistakes you might make.
Roboken
XxKuraiXkodomoxX
Michael132465
Maser Shakesula
