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Red Kutai's avatar

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And as for the preloader ads, many people's computers don't take that long to load.. On my computer, I get to look at the art for barely 2 seconds before the new area pops up, and as for people with slower computers.. well an advertisement would make it take longer to load, so I can understand why they wouldn't do it. xd

To be honest, I think that those ads are conceptually sound - zOMG! just lacks an audience worth advertising to, at the moment. If we're first able to increase the breadth (that is, the diversity of individuals playing) or the depth (that is, the sheer number of individuals) of that audience, then those advertisements may well be a worthwhile investment. But we've got plenty of ground to cover before the game is in a position where that would really be a profitable endeavour, so I can understand postponing such an addition for a while.

And it's pretty simple to work around quick load times - it would be very easy to put the advert screens on a timer, to ensure a certain amount of 'air time'. Yes, this would mean slightly longer load times for individuals with very fast machines, but would not affect individuals with slow machines any more significantly than the splashscreens that already exist (since, in essence, they would simply be product-oriented splashscreens). Just as on the mainsite, I would suggest an in-game option for Cash subscribers to be able to turn those advertisements off, which I suppose would incentivise players who wish to get the most advantage from their fast machines... razz
Omnileech's avatar

Omnipresent Warlord

I've done some math on revenue gaia gets from just the bloodlust portion of a Kamila run under ideal settings.

The fastest bloodlust run on record is 61 minutes. No wipes.

That's 18 amps used total.

amps= 99/25 = 3.96 cents per amp. 18 times 3.96 = 71.28 cents.

charger= 99/100 = .99. 300 supercharger uses (conservative estimate) times .99 cents = 297 cents.

Revives = evive 49/25 = 1.96 = 8 (conservative estimate)? = 15.68 cents


297+71.28+15.68 = 383.96 cents for a Bloodlust win.

And that equals... $6.39933333

Or rounding down since we're being conservative with our estimates

$6.39 for a crew to get a Bloodlust kill under ideal conditions. That's not counting green rooms, hpr or first form. Just the Bloodlust kill.
Using my figures for cost per use of these items why not see how much revenue gaia gets from your crew runs? The chargers will be guesswork and estimation, but hey. Why not?
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Red Kutai
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And as for the preloader ads, many people's computers don't take that long to load.. On my computer, I get to look at the art for barely 2 seconds before the new area pops up, and as for people with slower computers.. well an advertisement would make it take longer to load, so I can understand why they wouldn't do it. xd

To be honest, I think that those ads are conceptually sound - zOMG! just lacks an audience worth advertising to, at the moment. If we're first able to increase the breadth (that is, the diversity of individuals playing) or the depth (that is, the sheer number of individuals) of that audience, then those advertisements may well be a worthwhile investment. But we've got plenty of ground to cover before the game is in a position where that would really be a profitable endeavour, so I can understand postponing such an addition for a while.

And it's pretty simple to work around quick load times - it would easy to put the advert screens on a timer, to ensure a certain amount of 'air time'. Yes, this would mean slightly longer load times for individuals with very fast machines, but would not affect individuals with slow machines any more significantly than the splashscreens that already exist (since, in essence, they would simply be product-oriented splashscreens). Just as on the mainsite, I would suggest an in-game option for Cash subscribers to be able to turn those advertisements off, which I suppose would incentivise players who wish to get the most advantage from their fast machines... razz


Mmmm any idea how many players are on at any time? surprised

It could mean reworking a few of the areas where you can quite literally die while loading though.. confused (or pissing some users off..) But yeah, I suppose it is doable.. I still don't like it. *happy to be a cash subscriber and not look at dem ads* >: D
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Omnileech
I've done some math on revenue gaia gets from just the bloodlust portion of a Kamila run under ideal settings.

The fastest bloodlust run on record is 61 minutes. No wipes.

That's 18 amps used total.

amps= 99/25 = 3.96 cents per amp. 18 times 3.96 = 71.28 cents.

charger= 99/100 = .99. 300 supercharger uses (conservative estimate) times .99 cents = 297 cents.

Revives = revive 49/25 = 1.96 = 8 (conservative estimate)? = 15.68 cents


297+71.28+15.68 = 383.96 cents for a Bloodlust win.

And that equals... $6.39933333

Or rounding down since we're being conservative with our estimates

$6.39 for a crew to get a Bloodlust kill under ideal conditions. That's not counting green rooms, hpr or first form. Just the Bloodlust kill.
Using my figures for cost per use of these items why not see how much revenue gaia gets from your crew runs? The chargers will be guesswork and estimation, but hey. Why not?

Lol your spamming of the "=" character made my math brain explode. D;

Quote:
383.96 cents for a Bloodlust win. And that equals... $6.39933333

.... *brain explodes again* emotion_facepalm
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

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Mmmm any idea how many players are on at any time? surprised

It could mean reworking a few of the areas where you can quite literally die while loading though.. confused (or pissing some users off..) But yeah, I suppose it is doable.. I still don't like it. *happy to be a cash subscriber and not look at dem ads* >: D

Well, there are ways of obtaining that information, but I've never actually bothered with it myself. If you're truly interest, however, feel free. 3nodding

The vast majority of areas have already been modified to avoid that issue, due to complaints from users with slow machines - this is why instances like the Sawmill don't 'start' until players force them to. If such areas still exist, it's a good idea that they be fixed anyway, as those areas naturally cause problems for anyone with a subpart connection... sweatdrop

EDIT: What was it about the premise that you feel you don't like, precisely? Any particular objections?
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Red Kutai
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Mmmm any idea how many players are on at any time? surprised

It could mean reworking a few of the areas where you can quite literally die while loading though.. confused (or pissing some users off..) But yeah, I suppose it is doable.. I still don't like it. *happy to be a cash subscriber and not look at dem ads* >: D

Well, there are ways of obtaining that information, but I've never actually bothered with it myself. If you're truly interest, however, feel free. 3nodding

The vast majority of areas have already been modified to avoid that issue, due to complaints from users with slow machines - this is why instances like the Sawmill don't 'start' until players force them to. If such areas still exist, it's a good idea that they be fixed anyway, as those areas naturally cause problems for anyone with a subpart connection... sweatdrop

EDIT: What was it about the premise that you feel you don't like, precisely? Any particular objections?


... There are 123/999 players on Air Fluff..
and... 132/999 players on Alarmskeeter..

Lol yeah... I kinda see where they are coming from about zOMG failing right about now.. xd

I suppose it is a bad time though. rofl

Based on the guide, they used to max out at 2k.. and there were 3 servers back then too. xp

That's still like... barely anything.. confused
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Red Kutai
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Mmmm any idea how many players are on at any time? surprised

It could mean reworking a few of the areas where you can quite literally die while loading though.. confused (or pissing some users off..) But yeah, I suppose it is doable.. I still don't like it. *happy to be a cash subscriber and not look at dem ads* >: D

Well, there are ways of obtaining that information, but I've never actually bothered with it myself. If you're truly interest, however, feel free. 3nodding

The vast majority of areas have already been modified to avoid that issue, due to complaints from users with slow machines - this is why instances like the Sawmill don't 'start' until players force them to. If such areas still exist, it's a good idea that they be fixed anyway, as those areas naturally cause problems for anyone with a subpart connection... sweatdrop

EDIT: What was it about the premise that you feel you don't like, precisely? Any particular objections?


Lol my main objection was just the dying while loading. Beyond that, I probly wouldn't mind too much.. I do like the art though. whee

Yeah they have fixed it in most cases, but you can still die like.. going into GRs, um... going into bloodlust with bats on screen, probly a couple others. emotion_facepalm They should probably just add another room to these parts. >w<
Starshine's avatar

Magical Gatekeeper

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Lol my main objection was just the dying while loading. Beyond that, I probly wouldn't mind too much.. I do like the art though. whee

Yeah they have fixed it in most cases, but you can still die like.. going into GRs, um... going into bloodlust with bats on screen, probly a couple others. emotion_facepalm They should probably just add another room to these parts. >w<

But fighting bats with no buffs and lusty lurking behind you is the most fun thing ever! You get cosy with your old best friend, the supercharger. And hot and steamy with your new best friend, the revive by tapping it multiple times in a few seconds. 4laugh
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Lol my main objection was just the dying while loading. Beyond that, I probly wouldn't mind too much.. I do like the art though. whee

Yeah they have fixed it in most cases, but you can still die like.. going into GRs, um... going into bloodlust with bats on screen, probly a couple others. emotion_facepalm They should probably just add another room to these parts. >w<

But fighting bats with no buffs and lusty lurking behind you is the most fun thing ever! You get cosy with your old best friend, the supercharger. And hot and steamy with your new best friend, the revive by tapping it multiple times in a few seconds. 4laugh


LoL so thaaaat's why they didn't fix it in those areas. Ty for explaining. heart
Gaaaaaaiiiiaaaaa... -eyes turn to flame-
J/k, but seriously. They should fix that. rofl
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Lol you contradicted yourself about whether DMS was successful or not.. razz

And as for the preloader ads, many people's computers don't take that long to load.. On my computer, I get to look at the art for barely 2 seconds before the new area pops up, and as for people with slower computers.. well an advertisement would make it take longer to load, so I can understand why they wouldn't do it. xd

DMS, financially speaking, was an explosive success, as the community blew away all of the goals set for it, and then some.

DMS, gameplay speaking, was an abysmal failure of the highest magnitude, it took the distilled essence of GRINDING (the part of MMOs that are most loathed), with the least pretty backgrounds that could be created, and a very limited set of enemies that are copy-pasted, quite literally, hundreds of times throughout a randomly generated maze, along with a small handful of other bad gameplay designs and various problems, and shoved it into one new "area" that is DMS.


It's not a contradiction, it's two different parts of the discussion.


As for loading art, a simple 2-3 second delay attached to loading any new area would ensure that the loading art be easily seen by all, without being so long as to frustrate users like traditional preloader ads, but the repetition of seeing the art at every loading screen would serve to get it's image across.

... even without extending the loader, I bet offhand you could tell me any two or three loading art pics from the areas you hang around in most often, simply because you see them so often. This same thing could be applied to ads, and that is why they would succeed in this alternate approach.


Even for top of the line computer users, a 2 second delay during most loading screens isn't something you'll ever notice. The only lingering question is how many people it would actually advertise to, and that problem is more a matter of Gaia repeatedly shooting zOMG in the foot than anything else.

Financially speaking, the added direct-impact of a splashscreen ad, over a preloader ad or a sidebanner, is noteworthy enough that in-game ads run this way can fairly ask for several times as much money for ads run, and any company that understands advertising will happily pay it.
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Red Kutai
What I can discern from your statement, however, appears to be that people want updates - and that's something that I certainly can understand. But I'm confident that even successful MMOs do not release areas, find themselves unimpressed with the returns on that investment, and then agree to repeat the same mistakes - because that sounds very much like the makings of an unsuccessful business model. Like any company that releases a product to underwhelming results, it would make vastly more sense for them to stop investing in an underwhelming product, and begin exploring ways in which they might improve that product for future releases. Continuing to invest blindly in a product while one does not understand how to make it profitable is the equivalent of throwing money into a hole - and most experts agree that that's a bad idea.

However, when with pre-DMS sales, the population of a game OVERWHELMINGLY EXCEEDS EXPECTATIONS, this is not the time to pull funding.

There was no misconception about what JK was saying, zOMG was on life support, has been for a long time, and we were told rather bluntly that the bloodstone amulets were the way to gauge interest and decide if it would get more updates.

The whole debate of "cover up", or rather "covering over previous claims", is a matter of timing. I do not believe that Gaia made such claims with the intent of deception, but having made these statements about the future of zOMG, and changed their mind later, they now want to brush it under the rug as if the statements were never made.

Quote:
The simple fact is, most game players are not game designers - the two have different goals, motivations, values, understandings, and expertise. While it would be throwing away a valuable resource to completely disregard player opinions, it is just as dangerous to overestimate the value of those opinions - DMS is, in actuality, an example of the latter.

Players - that is, the players the developers had most access to; the "squeaky wheels", as it were - routinely requested harder content. That's precisely what DMS was tailored to deliver; it is hard to level, hard to progress, and hard to complete. Everything about the area is hard. The problem? Hard content is not the same as fun content. The notion that harder content is necessarily more fun is a very common c** hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy among gamers, based on experiences with 'hard' gameplay - and it's important for a designer to recognise that.

Simply, the argument that "we weren't asking for it" necessarily makes it a bad idea isn't entirely sound - the whole job of a designer is to listen to what players are asking for, and instead give them what they really want. Curiously, our difference-in-opinion on this subject is that you feel DMS was not giving the players what they were asking for, whereas I feel it - mistakenly - was doing just that.

Aaaah, and herein lies the problem yet again.

I do not see DMS as hard. I see DMS as "broken scaling" early on, which is the ONLY thing that stops players from diving in and ruining the first few zones the same as we always have.

This continues to prove more broken than difficult, as the shadow orb drop rate is set ludicrously low compared to other orbs you are gaining around these levels, then a second slap in the face, as leveling past 11.0 begins to cost twice as many orbs, rather than keeping with current leveling patterns.

Calling DMS "hard" is like scaling a tall building via very, very slow elevator. While you need to wait around for 10 minutes at every floor for the damn thing to finally close the doors and lift you another floor, it's not really "hard" to get up the building, it's just slow, annoying, unsatisfying, irritating, etc. etc. etc. so that several weeks later when we finally make it to the top, we look back down, and are disappointed at how long it took to get there, for such little payoff. HARD would be if we had to take the stairs. It may only take us a day to scale the entire massive building, but after slamming through with so much force and resistance, your muscles burn and you feel accomplished!

To compare this more tangibly to zOMG, all of the enemies are the same weaklings as always, with new skins. They may have new tricks to beating them due to their broken scaling, but it's not really HARD to beat them, just time consuming.

A proper HARD area should have given us something new, something challenging, something that when we're the same level as the enemy and run across it, we don't think, "yawn, another one.", but instead "crap, this could get interesting!"

Quote:
The issue here appears to be that your definitions are not in line with Gaia's - that what you consider "large amounts of money" and "failed" games, they consider relatively insignificant amounts of money, and wildly successful games, respectively. A quick check reveals that MoGa currently has 1.3 million monthly players - which is very easily an order of magnitude more than zOMG! has ever had. Considering that that game is much more oriented around - and therefore much more successful at - converting players into profit, it follows that that order of magnitude more players are producing even more orders of magnitude more money. If only zOMG! could 'fail' like that, we wouldn't be in this position to begin with...

Ah, yes, my mistake by far. I mistakenly tried to lump facebook users in with normal people. Sadly, I suppose it's true, zOMG needs to be facebook compatible for us to be able to harvest the lifeless husk that is facebook. That would indeed solve our problems.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

Kayi Laa
However, when with pre-DMS sales, the population of a game OVERWHELMINGLY EXCEEDS EXPECTATIONS, this is not the time to pull funding.

And if that had ever happened, they would not have done so. Assuming you're referring to Bloodstone Amulets, we did not "overwhelmingly exceed expecations". What we did was to meet their preliminary expectations - and from then on, we failed to even accomplish that. Yes, we were all surprised with how quickly the 5,000 initial Bloodstones sold out - but one success does not make up for the many failures that follow it.
Quote:
There was no misconception about what JK was saying, zOMG was on life support, has been for a long time, and we were told rather bluntly that the bloodstone amulets were the way to gauge interest and decide if it would get more updates.

We were told that DMS - as a whole - was going to determine the future of zOMG!; it was the break point. If DMS was able to meet Gaia's expected return on investment, Gaia would be able to consider zOMG! a sound investment in the future; if DMS did not meet those expectations, Gaia would understand that they were currently unable to soundly invest in zOMG!. When the time came, DMS met only the most preliminary expectations that they had established for it, and that simply wasn't enough.
Quote:
A proper HARD area should have given us something new, something challenging, something that when we're the same level as the enemy and run across it, we don't think, "yawn, another one.", but instead "crap, this could get interesting!"

Which is precisely the problem - "interesting" is a form of value, while "hard" is a form of cost. Players reach the misconception that "hard" is valuable from experiences that are both "hard" and "interesting" at the same time. In reality, no player really wants a "hard" area - that's the logical equivalent of asking for an expensive dinner. What players want is an "interesting" area; they're simply willing to accept the added cost in order to obtain it.

DMS's error was that its goal was to be "hard", not "interesting" - which is, again, the equivalent of a restaurant offering more expensive food, rather than offering tastier food. The error was in listening to what the players were saying, rather than to what they really meant.
Quote:
Ah, yes, my mistake by far. I mistakenly tried to lump facebook users in with normal people. Sadly, I suppose it's true, zOMG needs to be facebook compatible for us to be able to harvest the lifeless husk that is facebook. That would indeed solve our problems.

I am largely uncertain how you expect your personal vendetta against Facebook to make for any kind of sound business decision. The fact is, Facebook is an extremely valuable resource and it would be foolish of Gaia to ignore it - while I don't believe that their business model is sound in absolutely every regard, I fully submit that investments made toward Facebook are both theoretically and practically sound.

I'm not sure where you derived the notion that zOMG! ought to be ported to Facebook; it's been proposed numerous times, and I believe I've opposed it - on some grounds or another - every time it has been. I have considered the possibility of utilising zOMG! themes and assets in a 'lite' version of the game that fits more appropriately within Facebook gaming conventions (a la -MapleStory Adventures), but I do not believe that zOMG! proper is a good fit for the Facebook platform. In fact, based on the direction in which Facebook-oriented casual gaming is currently headed, I think that zOMG! is currently significantly ahead-of-the-curve... sweatdrop

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