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Red Kutai's avatar

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I've been thinking, lately, about how to rebalance the rings, and I've come across a most disconcerting dilemma:

Hornet's Nest has no job.

I mean, it can't be the Ranged AoE; that's Heavy Water Balloon.
It can't be the Fear ring; Scaredy Cat does that just fine.
It's certainly not ranged DoT; Hot Foot is much better.
The only role Hornet's Nest fits at the moment is the Ranged Damage-over-Time Area-of-Effect plus Fear! gonk No wonder nobody uses it... sweatdrop

My question, then, is what role do you think Hornet's Nest should be filling. In fact, I'll even let you generalise a bit: tell me about any zOMG! ring that you don't think is filling the role is should be. And this isn't necessarily about making the rings better, but about making them more intuitive. Tell me which of your rings just don't make sense!
Sami Von Disco's avatar

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I agree with you about Hornet's Nest. I stopped and thought, "What would throwing a hornet nest at someone in real life do? Well, it would be ranged... and probably damage a lot of people in the area... and scare them... and- oh crap. emo " IT ALREADY DOES THAT. gonk

But one that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that Adrenaline is an attack. Wait, so we want the Animated to run faster, jump higher, and attack harder? Why? gonk I'd like to make it a buff with speed/health/dodge boosts. So basically it would be like rolling Fleet, Meat, and Ghost all together. XD It might actually make the Medic set playable!
Imperial Mistress Kami's avatar

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I completely agree with this. I mean, I'd almost forgotten Hornet Nest EXISTED before I read this. I honestly think that the Fear Debuff actually makes the ring twice as annoying, considering that whenever you use it, all of the enemies run in random directions, Meaning that you have to then chase them to even land a hit.

Another ring I feel needs to be fixed is definitely Diagnose. Its called a healing ring, yet it seems to cause you more damage with its hate than what it actually does. At RR4 it heals about 200-240 HP, and then all of the enemies around you attack you for about 500-700 damage depending on what you're fighting. Like, Either they increase the amount it heals, or give it an extra effect, like removing bad status effects.
Miko Tadita's avatar

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I use hornets nest all the time its always on me, I like it. It's like fire rain in which it attacks multiple enemies at once, and when used at full rage it does a lot of damage.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

Sami Von Disco
I agree with you about Hornet's Nest. I stopped and thought, "What would throwing a hornet nest at someone in real life do? Well, it would be ranged... and probably damage a lot of people in the area... and scare them... and- oh crap. emo " IT ALREADY DOES THAT. gonk

But one that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that Adrenaline is an attack. Wait, so we want the Animated to run faster, jump higher, and attack harder? Why? gonk I'd like to make it a buff with speed/health/dodge boosts. So basically it would be like rolling Fleet, Meat, and Ghost all together. XD It might actually make the Medic set playable!

Adrenaline as an "attack" is pretty nonsensical, along with Knife Sharpen. The fact that they chose to keep the names the same when changing them from buffs to debuffs was something of a poor decision, simply from the viewpoint of making them intuitive. I'd like to see both changed; Kinfe Sharpen, into a short-term (possibly single-target, like Sweetheart) damage/accuracy buff, and Adrenaline I'd personally like to see as a Stamina heal.

Mistress Kamiyama
I completely agree with this. I mean, I'd almost forgotten Hornet Nest EXISTED before I read this. I honestly think that the Fear Debuff actually makes the ring twice as annoying, considering that whenever you use it, all of the enemies run in random directions, Meaning that you have to then chase them to even land a hit.

Another ring I feel needs to be fixed is definitely Diagnose. Its called a healing ring, yet it seems to cause you more damage with its hate than what it actually does. At RR4 it heals about 200-240 HP, and then all of the enemies around you attack you for about 500-700 damage depending on what you're fighting. Like, Either they increase the amount it heals, or give it an extra effect, like removing bad status effects.

Yes, using Rage on Hornet's Nest actually changes its use; without, it's simply a bad Hot Foot, while with Rage, it's a damaging Scaredy Cat. The problem is, there's no one looking for one ring to fit all of these roles. sweatdrop

The interesting dilemma for Diagnose is that the Hate generated is completely based on the amount of damage you heal; the fact that it hits multiple people (and thus gains Hate for everything they have Hate against) is what causes all the Hate. Unfortunately, that's just a byproduct of Diagnose's role. Diagnose is underpowered, though, compared to the other healing rings out there; like you said, I'd like to see it removing status effects/debuffs, to give it its own niche...
Red Kutai's avatar

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Miko Tadita
I use hornets nest all the time its always on me, I like it. It's like fire rain in which it attacks multiple enemies at once, and when used at full rage it does a lot of damage.

Actually, at full Rage it does as much damage as Fire Rain without Rage; but, it does have the range and the Fear in addition to that, assuming either of those are desirable. sweatdrop

If you like the Area-of-Effect it gives, you may want to try Heavy Water Balloon; the range isn't quite as good, but the damage is considerably better for the same Stamina cost and Cooldown...
Sami Von Disco's avatar

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Red Kutai
Sami Von Disco
I agree with you about Hornet's Nest. I stopped and thought, "What would throwing a hornet nest at someone in real life do? Well, it would be ranged... and probably damage a lot of people in the area... and scare them... and- oh crap. emo " IT ALREADY DOES THAT. gonk

But one that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that Adrenaline is an attack. Wait, so we want the Animated to run faster, jump higher, and attack harder? Why? gonk I'd like to make it a buff with speed/health/dodge boosts. So basically it would be like rolling Fleet, Meat, and Ghost all together. XD It might actually make the Medic set playable!

Adrenaline as an "attack" is pretty nonsensical, along with Knife Sharpen. The fact that they chose to keep the names the same when changing them from buffs to debuffs was something of a poor decision, simply from the viewpoint of making them intuitive. I'd like to see both changed; Kinfe Sharpen, into a short-term (possibly single-target, like Sweetheart) damage/accuracy buff, and Adrenaline I'd personally like to see as a Stamina heal.
I was about to throw "Stamina regen" into things I'd like Adrenaline to do, but that might make it over-powered. Or, at least I think if it did do all those things, they would be negligible amounts of boost. Or maybe have it be raged effects?

RR1 - Speed/Health boost
RR2 - Larger speed/health boost, bit of a dodge boost.
RR3 - ditto, larger dodge boost
RR4 - ditto, ditto, little bit of stam regen

When I hear "stamina heal," the first thing that comes to mind is it refilling our stamina. But rings use stamina. sweatdrop Would you wanna elaborate a little more? *is confused* X3 The use for Knife Sharpen you described would be useful, though I imagine more of being like Meat, where it only effects the user.
Miko Tadita's avatar

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Red Kutai
Miko Tadita
I use hornets nest all the time its always on me, I like it. It's like fire rain in which it attacks multiple enemies at once, and when used at full rage it does a lot of damage.

Actually, at full Rage it does as much damage as Fire Rain without Rage; but, it does have the range and the Fear in addition to that, assuming either of those are desirable. sweatdrop

If you like the Area-of-Effect it gives, you may want to try Heavy Water Balloon; the range isn't quite as good, but the damage is considerably better for the same Stamina cost and Cooldown...



Thanks I'll try it I usually wear both fire rain and nest but ill try water balloon
Saburoo's avatar

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I liked it when at rr1 the scare effect always hit.

It wasn't broken at all IMO. It simply did minor damage, had range, and made everything run to the edge of the screen and back. With the stamina cost is was perfect.


Now I wouldn't bother with it.

As for Adren and KS, with the major ring change they changed from buffs to attacks since what they did was made pointless when Keen Aye and Ghost got changed.

Though personally I think they could both have more of an effect or do something completely different.
Red Kutai

I've been thinking, lately, about how to rebalance the rings, and I've come across a most disconcerting dilemma:

Hornet's Nest has no job.

I mean, it can't be the Ranged AoE; that's Heavy Water Balloon.
It can't be the Fear ring; Scaredy Cat does that just fine.
It's certainly not ranged DoT; Hot Foot is much better.
The only role Hornet's Nest fits at the moment is the Ranged Damage-over-Time Area-of-Effect plus Fear! gonk No wonder nobody uses it... sweatdrop

My question, then, is what role do you think Hornet's Nest should be filling. In fact, I'll even let you generalise a bit: tell me about any zOMG! ring that you don't think is filling the role is should be. And this isn't necessarily about making the rings better, but about making them more intuitive. Tell me which of your rings just don't make sense!

Hornet's Nest
Debuffing, maybe (I personally find it much harder to be stern of will, to aim, or to dodge things with bees flying around and stinging me)?

AoE seems pretty much baked into it. You don't throw a hornets nest to hit one opponent. DoT also makes a lot of sense, as bees won't do all their damage at once (so DoT or some kind of debuff). Maybe a DoT that lasts really long, like a constant bleeding? It doesn't have to be as immediately powerful as Hot Foot, or as versatile - just last long enough that the DoT really has an effect (of course, that's assuming the animated survive for all that time - maybe a constant attack for anything that goes into the area of effect for awhile).

Adrenaline
Actually, this iteration of it makes more sense to me than the last, if only marginally. I can definitely see Adrenaline making someone better at dodging things (due to hyper fast reaction times), as it originally was. It's even easier to see it making someone worse at dodging things (it's current application), since Adrenaline is hard on the nerves. Neither one really fits it, though.

Adrenaline is a hormone which gives people more immediate energy/speed. For this, I like the idea of it lessening cooldown times (although practically, I think that's a bad idea - it's probably horrible to try to balance), or the idea of a stamina adding/stamina regen ring. We could use a little more than Divinity, at times, and maybe something that's one target only (like Sweetheart) would be of balanced use.

Knife Sharpen
Sharpening knives damages others, and makes them less accurate? Whaaaat? This really seems like an accuracy boost (perhaps a self only one, to make it different from Keen Aye).

Diagnose
Diagnosis makes you healthier in the long run, not immediately. It also works mostly by having an effect on long term problems (such as broken legs, illness, etc. - not just instant healing a cut). I think Diagnose would work better (and balance out to its own spot in the more powerful healing rings) by doing a similar healing job as it now does, while also removing and/or lessening Bleed effects and other debuffs, thus making it a strategic ring.

Teflon Spray
Really, Teflon makes things more likely to Deflect, rather than Reflect (and don't get started about how spraying Teflon on would make you better at dodging things). Maybe make it a 5% or no Persistant armor, and then have it give a good amount of Deflection (maybe along with Reflection at higher rage ranks) to get its own spot in the armor hierarchy.

Heavy Water Balloon
Not that it actually does this, but I don't see it as really appropriate for drawing hate (as in, more hate than its damage does - the way it's described makes it sound almost as if it's supposed to be part AoE ring, part Taunt). That might fit better with Hornets Nest.

Duct Tape
...makes people fall asleep? rofl It seems more like a Root kind of ring, or at least a different animation for Duct Taped sleep (that's more "I'm immobilized so I can't attack" rather than "I'm immobilized, so I fall asleep, so I can't attack" wink . Still, it works well for that, if only sleep wasn't so wimpy for noncoordinated attacks.

Hunter's Bow
Again, a ring whose game role really actually makes sense, even if it isn't exactly what I'd expect from such a thing in real life (I mean sure, getting hit with arrows would slow me down - just as much as getting hit by bullets or heavy water balloons would).
Saburoo's avatar

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Sami Von Disco
Red Kutai
Sami Von Disco
I agree with you about Hornet's Nest. I stopped and thought, "What would throwing a hornet nest at someone in real life do? Well, it would be ranged... and probably damage a lot of people in the area... and scare them... and- oh crap. emo " IT ALREADY DOES THAT. gonk

But one that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that Adrenaline is an attack. Wait, so we want the Animated to run faster, jump higher, and attack harder? Why? gonk I'd like to make it a buff with speed/health/dodge boosts. So basically it would be like rolling Fleet, Meat, and Ghost all together. XD It might actually make the Medic set playable!

Adrenaline as an "attack" is pretty nonsensical, along with Knife Sharpen. The fact that they chose to keep the names the same when changing them from buffs to debuffs was something of a poor decision, simply from the viewpoint of making them intuitive. I'd like to see both changed; Kinfe Sharpen, into a short-term (possibly single-target, like Sweetheart) damage/accuracy buff, and Adrenaline I'd personally like to see as a Stamina heal.
I was about to throw "Stamina regen" into things I'd like Adrenaline to do, but that might make it over-powered. Or, at least I think if it did do all those things, they would be negligible amounts of boost. Or maybe have it be raged effects?

RR1 - Speed/Health boost
RR2 - Larger speed/health boost, bit of a dodge boost.
RR3 - ditto, larger dodge boost
RR4 - ditto, ditto, little bit of stam regen

When I hear "stamina heal," the first thing that comes to mind is it refilling our stamina. But rings use stamina. sweatdrop Would you wanna elaborate a little more? *is confused* X3 The use for Knife Sharpen you described would be useful, though I imagine more of being like Meat, where it only effects the user.



Ideas for effective stamina heal rings:

It could either be Allies only or it could simply cost health to used. Now for allies only it could have a 3 second recharge with...

rr1 costs 5 stamina, gives 5
rr2 gives 10
rr3 gives 15
rr4 gives 20

BUT it would give no rage, so no rage farming with 2 people sending stamina over to each other. Or a *very* small amount of rage.


Just my opinions on a balanced stamina regen ring.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

Sami Von Disco
Red Kutai
Sami Von Disco
I agree with you about Hornet's Nest. I stopped and thought, "What would throwing a hornet nest at someone in real life do? Well, it would be ranged... and probably damage a lot of people in the area... and scare them... and- oh crap. emo " IT ALREADY DOES THAT. gonk

But one that seems really counter-intuitive to me is that Adrenaline is an attack. Wait, so we want the Animated to run faster, jump higher, and attack harder? Why? gonk I'd like to make it a buff with speed/health/dodge boosts. So basically it would be like rolling Fleet, Meat, and Ghost all together. XD It might actually make the Medic set playable!

Adrenaline as an "attack" is pretty nonsensical, along with Knife Sharpen. The fact that they chose to keep the names the same when changing them from buffs to debuffs was something of a poor decision, simply from the viewpoint of making them intuitive. I'd like to see both changed; Kinfe Sharpen, into a short-term (possibly single-target, like Sweetheart) damage/accuracy buff, and Adrenaline I'd personally like to see as a Stamina heal.
I was about to throw "Stamina regen" into things I'd like Adrenaline to do, but that might make it over-powered. Or, at least I think if it did do all those things, they would be negligible amounts of boost. Or maybe have it be raged effects?

RR1 - Speed/Health boost
RR2 - Larger speed/health boost, bit of a dodge boost.
RR3 - ditto, larger dodge boost
RR4 - ditto, ditto, little bit of stam regen

When I hear "stamina heal," the first thing that comes to mind is it refilling our stamina. But rings use stamina. sweatdrop Would you wanna elaborate a little more? *is confused* X3 The use for Knife Sharpen you described would be useful, though I imagine more of being like Meat, where it only effects the user.

I suppose "Stamina heal" may not seem reasonable, but I meant what it says: essentially, I'd like to see Adrenaline working as Wish does (without AoE), except affecting Stamina instead. Of course, it'd have a much higher cooldown than Wish, and a considerably higher Stamina cost. I've back-and-forth'd on the idea of letting it target yourself, simply because the idea of "trading" Rage Ranks for Stamina seems fun, but I'm concerned for the power level in solo'ing.

Knife Sharpen as a Self Only buff would work, too; I'd always imagined it as something a support character would carry, but making the damage-dealer carry it himself makes just as much sense...
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Hornet's Nest I can agree It needs a tweaking. Its not used very well because people just cant find a fit. Its hard to say wither or not its an issue with the ring or just player skill.

Knife Sharpen is an accuracy debuff- thats a reasonable function for it thematically. It used to be a crew only accuracy buff but with the function of Keen Eye it was redundant (because the latter "should" have originally been for both self and allies without the "re-balancing" thing).

Adrenaline never had anything to do with stamina, its a dodge thing always has been. Again it was made from a buff into a debuff but it still functions in the area of dodge.

That if anything is a thematic error rather than a functional one.


And the more I read these threads the less and less I think people actually know how to use those two rings. Yes they do damage but their not "supposed" to be primarily used for that (their stamina cost is WAAY to high). They have other functions that you pay for in that cost.

Personally, take them into a boss fight and see what they do to really big uglies. You should see what Knife Sharpen does to the Masks and Adrenaline does to Bruce or Duneslam <.<
Hornet's Nests is the mandatory useless skill that some people use because they don't know it's useless. All MMOs have them. You can't integrate everything!
Miko Tadita's avatar

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kay tried the waterballoon and i still like hornet better it throws the enemies back so if they're getting you bad you at least have a change to regain stamina, and the water balloon only hits one enemy not multiplier neutral

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