[ Poll ] MOAR STAMINA!!! Seriously...

Moar Stamina?

Yes		87.7%	[ 142 ]
No		12.3%	[ 20 ]

Total Votes: 162

[Divine_Malevolence]

But that system would encourage all out frenzy killing, and no pacing.
In fact, it would turn pacing into the devil.

People would be able to just kill a bunch of weaker enemies, save up on the resource, and destroy a boss without having to worry.
You'd have to impose either a maximum amount of resources, or have a rate in which it runs out.
The former would be just as limiting. The latter would make it so that you lose any advantage if you're not fighting and killing for a while.
And either way, it would take away the casualness of it all.

[OMFG Taylor]

tangocat777

Yeah......
Actually, pretty much any Laguz-gemed Laguz and third tier Beorc had broken propensities.
Oh, and Skrimir does, like, three times as much damage as Ike, with more speed, and takes almost no damage.
The kings/ the queen were just freakin' unstoppable, especially Tibarn.
But getting back to that weapon/magic/transformation system.
Imagine, if you will, defeating enemies resupplies a resource with which you can give your rings more uses. High-utility rings like defenses and good buffs cost alot of these to work, where as strong attacks and CC use very little, and some weaker attacks and the reloading/spam frenzy rings I mentioned earlier do not need to use this special cost mechanism at all. This way, your ability to use powerful rings scales much better with your need to use them, and you have a limited ability to save energy from other, easier battles.

Reminds me of rage xD

[tangocat777]

Divine_Malevolence

But that system would encourage all out frenzy killing, and no pacing.
In fact, it would turn pacing into the devil.

People would be able to just kill a bunch of weaker enemies, save up on the resource, and destroy a boss without having to worry.
You'd have to impose either a maximum amount of resources, or have a rate in which it runs out.
The former would be just as limiting. The latter would make it so that you lose any advantage if you're not fighting and killing for a while.
And either way, it would take away the casualness of it all.

I figure a maximum amount of uses for an individual ring would be best. There would be a low number of uses for defenses and buffs, and a higher number for attacks, and all of these rings would be much more powerful than comparable rings that work on another limiting method.
Using a ringset entirely like this would be very powerful, but also incredibly bad if you ever run out, and thus balance is reached. If you were able to power your way through long battles with these rings alone, I would consider them broken.
And, okay, you got me there in the fact that it would no longer be a casual game.
Maybe I should just be quiet with my ideas, but I dare any of you to come up with a way to make stamina more interesting. Currently, stamina forces us to attack until we are all out, then to survive as long as we can to squeeze in as many 2-second stamina ticks to make that 5-second no-stamina period cost effective. I think there is a better way to limit ring uses then this, because this stamina mechanism itself is widely associated with hardcore MMOs.
@Taylor: Kinda, but not really.

[Shadowed Replica]

| Do you hear yourself talk? |

I agree. Stamina should be increased as well.
Not a whole lot but at least a little more or it should replenish a little faster cause if you're an attacker you have to wait for the stamina to get back up and it slows down while running away. Even healing could cause a problem cause you have to wait for stamina when you're trying to heal/protect multiple crew members.

| I just might kill you! |

[Thard_Verad]

The thread is long, my time is short.
So forgive me if this idea was mentioned on pages 2-9.

Ghi ability, Stamina boost?
Minor = 10, regular = 20-25, Major = 40-50
That way, with the Major boost and full Ghi you have 140-150 Stamina. It's a thought.

[KaylaGalela]

Stamina's a b***h. XD

I don't think that stamina needs to increase just because other games are designed that way. I think the main issue is stamina regeneration. You could conceivably raise STA regeneration so high that it would be impossible to run out of stamina. Of course, that would not make for an interesting game.

[Melkitty8]

To put my two cents worth in, it isn't the stamina I'm worried about when I play, it's my speed and health that worry me. I'm fine with 100 stamina tops, but I always need more health just to survive and not get dazed since the devs have made the enemies stronger in the recent updates. And I can rely on activating the divinity ring by myself or from someone else, but it is almost impossible for me to survive when going solo without getting dazed..

[hermie_the_frog]

As long as it was a small amount I'd agree with this. If the increase was too much it'd be too easy to spam attacks. Maybe have your stamina increase by five each CL, that way you end up with 150?

[Ai Akura]

DeathWyrmNexus

Okay, so there is a well thought out discussion about the issue with soloers. There is also my Passive Abilities thread. Here

All that aside, here is literally the biggest issue with zOMG. I suppose you could argue otherwise but I suspect you would be wrong.

Stamina. It doesn't ever grow. You have just as much stamina now as you had then and possibly will have later. 100. No more or less. See the problem? Yes? Good, you may live.

No? ... Okay, let me spell it out.

It is the ONLY stat that isn't subject to change and it is the entire crux of your ring set past, present, and future. I don't mean to sound so ominous but... Seriously, it is your power source.

A CL 10 has just as much ability to fight as a CL 1 in regards to how long they can fight before having to stop. No Ghi buff or Ring power changes this. This greatly affects crewing and soloing. It affects ring choice. It affects your ability to survive. So... Why doesn't it improve?

Think of it this way. Ever play Diablo 1, 2, or 2 with Lord of Destruction? Ever play a Final Fantasy game? Hell, ever play ANY RPG with some kind of mana or magic system? Well, imagine if your mana never rose above what it started as?

So with any kind of voice I have, I encourage that this be addressed ASAP. Obviously it can wait until after Halloween but seriously. This needs to improve. stare

Clarifications:
I use Divinity thus I know about it.

I DO plan.

Speed can be improved with rings. Stamina cannot.

Planning isn't eliminated with the access to more energy. See nearly every RPG ever made for proof of this. rolleyes

Divinity would be just as valuable with more stamina than it would be without. Again, see nearly every RPG ever made for examples of energy regeneration being valid even with higher energy.

Increased Stamina would help with ring innovation in future updates.

In most games I've played that use Stamina instead of MP, stamina is fixed and regenerates quickly, while MP can grow, but regenerates either slowly or not at all. It's usually replenished with items or going back to town.

Also you mention FF as if it's an example of good game design. It's not. The games have interesting story and characters, but from a game design perspective their battle systems are always easily broken and abused at end game. Make the game like FF is a bad idea if you want to be able to expand it, say, forever. If the game had a finite length, then sure, you could let the players be gods once all the major challenges are beaten.

It just sounds like you need to learn better stamina management and communicate with your crews better. The stamina was designed the way it was as a deliberate game design choice to make you do these things. It's a key tenant of the game's design. So it might be that you just don't like the intended style of gameplay, and don't realize it.

[SneakyShadows]

Treat your crew members as extra stamina. :>

I've seen all these threads pop up about how drastically things need to be changed.. Has it always been like this? It's depressing.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ai Akura

In most games I've played that use Stamina instead of MP, stamina is fixed and regenerates quickly, while MP can grow, but regenerates either slowly or not at all. It's usually replenished with items or going back to town.

Also you mention FF as if it's an example of good game design. It's not. The games have interesting story and characters, but from a game design perspective their battle systems are always easily broken and abused at end game. Make the game like FF is a bad idea if you want to be able to expand it, say, forever. If the game had a finite length, then sure, you could let the players be gods once all the major challenges are beaten.

It just sounds like you need to learn better stamina management and communicate with your crews better. The stamina was designed the way it was as a deliberate game design choice to make you do these things. It's a key tenant of the game's design. So it might be that you just don't like the intended style of gameplay, and don't realize it.

Considering that I hate the FF series and only included them because I don't expect people to have played Diablo 2, it is silly how off you are in your assumption.

You also missed the details about the fact that I know about pacing and correct management. I have those and yet I still have this opinion. I obviously have a mild dislike for the base system, hence my opinion.

Basically the entirety of your post is that I am simply ignorant and thus don't understand the game. I DO understand the game and I still have issue. It is called feedback. Come back when you have something more to discuss.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Kazura-Kun

I'm sorry. I mistook the statement as saying the amount of game playing (as in people playing) would increase more in comparison to the relative ease of gameplay. Which of course, wouldn't be true because if the game was easier, more people would be playing more often in response to that, at least to a certain point.

I see, you're talking about when the game itself progresses, as in Chapter Two, rather than from the beginning to the current ending of the game? Well... then you're speculating a little too much. Unless you can foresee the future, you have no way of knowing if the next series of animated and quests will continue to follow to current trend. You can project that it will, of course, but asking for a radical change in the game before any such evidence presents itself is a tad much.

Please, do inform me if my perceptions are off. I only read up to the first three pages before a lot of the arguments got stale.

More game playing as in Playing the Game as opposed to constant kneeling or stalling. It would allow for more to be done before resting. I don't mind resting but every two battles gets grating.

As for my speculations, it isn't exactly a stretch to think that we would keep advancing in CL and thus Difficulty seeing as we have been observing their trend in enemies for almost a year now. Notice how the enemies in this chapter are almost consistently getting harder? Check the FYI at the bottom of this post. XD

Also, you seem to be forgetting that I am also wanting an increase in overall stamina due to action pacing. Mostly pacing. Dear god, the pacing.

Divine_Malevolence

Then, why would they exist at all?
Any such haymaker ring could be added to the current mix. But if the maximum stamina was increased, and mantis was still useful........
Then how exactly would we e'er run out of stamina? And what would be the downside to using a finishing move every time, if the stamina system so allowed?

They would exist to add diversity to the game and enrich it with option-y goodness. Same as any other ring add on.

As for your mantis question, I would think you would be clever enough to imagine new directions for the animated. Such as... Stamina Burn. By increasing the ability of the player to... PLAY, developers get a broader and more diverse range with which they can scale their monsters. More statuses can be added. Besides, constantly healing yourself while using your attack rings will add up. You can't always count on your buffs to hold out in a longer fight.

My idea is basically to expand the game and allow for greater skill to be shown. Sure, you're the cream of the crop now but can you deal with something capping around 500,000 hp with a bit of Stamina burn to their hits? Might have to ponder new strategies and mix up your rings more.

More Stamina allows you to do More...

FYI: AirShark is CL 20 with around 90k hp. wink Assuming that Lynn is remembering the Hp correctly but she definitely remembers the CL.

[Mike aka GOD]

Mike aka GOD

Kahru Serizawa

Hmm. I always thought of stamina as a percent, and it could never go over 100%. xd

If it's not then oh well, but if it is, the same thing (I think) you're talking about can be done like this:

As CL increases, the skill/level/power/ of the player increases, allowing the player to handle a lot more strain from using the rings repeatedly. For example more "powerful" rings such as Hack would cost 15 STA to a CL1, while it would cost 3 or 4 to a CL10. Mantis at CL1 - 6 STA, CL10 - 2...etc I'm not all knowing about the precise STA costs of all the rings in relation to their "power" so I won't speculate.

It has flaws I know. Just an idea. ninja

There are several perspectives to approach this from. DWN and Divine both make valid points that have been used in other games and have worked, the issues derive from lack of balance.

On one hand, DWN's point is if skill cost is constant, but attacks relative to kill increase, then logically there should be a relative stamina increase. On the other hand, Divine makes the other side's point that if skill progress maintains the attacks to kill ratio, then stamina should be kept constant, meaning there is no need for MOAR STAMINA.

That's the over-simplified way of me putting it, balance is complex, and I'm done on these forums for now. Obviously there are more complex functions that alter a myriad of different variables (ie: PlayerDamage, MonsterDamage, MonsterLife, MonsterDefense, Abilities, etc) to attain the desired results (multi-solutions) based on various cost algorithm factors (ie: challenge).

Mike aka GOD

Arkyron

Tsenzori Yu

On the other hand, Gaia also has the right to say: "Crew or die" ...which it's doing and will continue to do so.

My solo-guide begs to differ with the bolded portion. They've made it harder, but not impossible. Qixter himself stated so.

I take the train for an hour to get to college. The city can get rid of trains and the city can also force people to walk. Sure they would have made it harder, but not impossible.

DWN, does this^ hit the nail? What I'm seeing in this thread is people completely missing the point of this thread and the issues. So can someone fill me in where this thread went so we're all on the same page? People aren't defending that kneel state > playing, are they? You can do melee monsters by maxing speed and then sniping them from range and running while stamina recovers, but the entire game shouldn't consist of kneeling, running, waiting, etc.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Well I am ignoring the weapon duration talk since that is something I always hated in games. Basically a gold sink/time waster. It was quaint to build Endurance in Oblivion by repairing my gear but it ended up a time burner for the sake of pseudo-realism.

As for my basic point, you have part of it. Basically that is half my reasoning. I expect trouble ahead and the other, Bigger part is that I truly hate how often we have to rest. I understand the idea of limited energy to work with and that is great. However, our enemies aren't working with a limited energy source as they just attack and attack and attack and attack. Enemies never rest so at least we can get some kind of boost to our energy to keep up or at least stop having to stand around like a knob so much or run about like a retard while we wait to be able to play the damn game again.

Seriously, I believe in recharging but I believe that we should be playing more than we are recharging. That is my biggest issue. It kills the pace of the game's action. We are supposedly, according to canon storyline, some kind of great champion of Gaia and yet we are constantly stopping for breath like we are a fat kid forced to run track.

[FIavie]

There would not be any problems with mana (stamina razz ) in a good crew that knows what it's doing, but every update to zOMG makes it even harder to join a random SS crew, it's just tiredsome to tell everyone what to do each time and even so they'll make mistakes when they don't want to wait and listen. Most commonly someone running ahead to mobs when tactics would be needed without divinity and die razz