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Hashtable's avatar

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I do play a board game called go. (also known as igo, baduk, Wei qi, and idk what else)

It was and probably still is the "most played" board game in the world.

The rules are so simple you can learn them in 5 minutes, but so much complexity follows from those basic rules that it's kept people entertained for millennia.. Is this the kind of simplicity your looking for? surprised Simplicity in the "premises" of the game?

If so, I'm not quite sure how to simplify it.. IMO zomg is pretty simple for an MMO, but then I haven't played that many, so idk. xd

But if simplicity == using my brain less, then I wouldn't view it as a good thing. sweatdrop
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

Hashtable
What can I say, rich people don't like cheap food. xd
I would have to see examples to make a judgement on that one. whee

Well, rich people are willing and able to spend more on food, but they still expect the extra cost to equate to higher quality - they may value things a little differently, but the premise that you don't pay more than is necessary is (almost) universal. In terms of gameplay and complexity, there is a spectrum ranging from players who are willing to endure higher costs (like complexity) for more interesting gameplay, to those who seek to minimise costs even if it results in a less strictly engaging game; those two ends are what we refer to as "hardcore" and "casual" gamers, respectively.

zOMG! was concepted, designed, and advertised as a 'casual' game, meaning that its goals should be in line with those of casual gamers' - namely, that it should be working to keep complexity and other costs minimal, and to use any necessary costs as efficiently as possible. Once gataka gets around to sharing some examples, I suspect we'll be able to examine how effectively the game is doing that in greater detail... 3nodding
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

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But if simplicity == using my brain less, then I wouldn't view it as a good thing. sweatdrop

Confusingly enough, that is both true and false - as animals, we naturally aspire to invest as little energy as physically possible in every endeavour, and that includes brainpower; but as humans, we are also naturally driven to solve problems, which means that investing brainpower is actually fun for us. As a game designer, one must balance these two natural desires - namely by making the brainpower you do require as rewarding as possible.

Your description of Go covers two different elements of complexity - the first is, simply, how much 'stuff' there is to know in order to play; if players were a computer, it would correspond to the ROM (rather, non-volatile memory space) necessary to run the system. Players will be immediately turned off by a game if the amount of information necessary to play effectively is too high, so games with too many rules are difficult for players to get involved in. The advantage that that form of complexity has is that it's a one-time hurdle; unless the game is consistently adding lots of new rules, you only have to learn everything once. Games can even make this easier by breaking up those requirements into several smaller hurdles - the general goal of tutorial areas, and the like.

The other element is how much thought is required to actively play the game; similar to RAM requirements, in computers. Those requirements can vary a lot depending on the current gamestate (that is, the situation one is in within the game), but it is very common for players to be turned off by games that make you 'think too much'. How much active thought a player is willing to invest into a game can vary depending on a wide variety of factors (for instance, outside issues occupying some portion of that player's attention), so it can be very advantageous for a game to appeal appropiately to as many of those investment levels as possible.

In the same way that we choose how to utilise computer programs based on memory usage, players choose to play games based on mental complexity; we won't download a program that takes up more space than it's worth, and players won't play a game which has unnecessarily complicated rules; we won't run a RAM-intensive program unless it's benefiting us significantly, and players won't participate in complicated scenarios unless there's a reason for them to. And just like programmers, game designers are trying to appeal to as wide an audience as possible; understanding that different machines - and different players - will have different tolerances is important. If you want to appeal to as many users as possible, you have to achieve as much as you can, while requiring as few of those resources as is at all practical... sweatdrop
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Red Kutai
Hashtable
What can I say, rich people don't like cheap food. xd
I would have to see examples to make a judgement on that one. whee

Well, rich people are willing and able to spend more on food, but they still expect the extra cost to equate to higher quality - they may value things a little differently, but the premise that you don't pay more than is necessary is (almost) universal. In terms of gameplay and complexity, there is a spectrum ranging from players who are willing to endure higher costs (like complexity) for more interesting gameplay, to those who seek to minimise costs even if it results in a less strictly engaging game; those two ends are what we refer to as "hardcore" and "casual" gamers, respectively.

zOMG! was concepted, designed, and advertised as a 'casual' game, meaning that its goals should be in line with those of casual gamers' - namely, that it should be working to keep complexity and other costs minimal, and to use any necessary costs as efficiently as possible. Once gataka gets around to sharing some examples, I suspect we'll be able to examine how effectively the game is doing that in greater detail... 3nodding


Lol this conversation is starting to generate more complexity than it's worth. xd

That said, many of the mechanics in the game could be explained/expressed in a much simpler fashion.

I for one, support a better tutorial and help screens.

Lol Chi panel could stand to be much easier to understand as well... and checking team rings could be simpler.. not sure if these are relevant to the "simplicity" mentioned in the OP? sweatdrop

I"m withdrawing my brain power until he gives examples/explains what he means. xd
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Red Kutai
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But if simplicity == using my brain less, then I wouldn't view it as a good thing. sweatdrop

Confusingly enough, that is both true and false - as animals, we naturally aspire to invest as little energy as physically possible in every endeavour, and that includes brainpower; but as humans, we are also naturally driven to solve problems, which means that investing brainpower is actually fun for us. As a game designer, one must balance these two natural desires - namely by making the brainpower you do require as rewarding as possible.

Your description of Go covers two different elements of complexity - the first is, simply, how much 'stuff' there is to know in order to play; if players were a computer, it would correspond to the ROM (rather, non-volatile memory space) necessary to run the system. Players will be immediately turned off by a game if the amount of information necessary to play effectively is too high, so games with too many rules are difficult for players to get involved in. The advantage that that form of complexity has is that it's a one-time hurdle; unless the game is consistently adding lots of new rules, you only have to learn everything once. Games can even make this easier by breaking up those requirements into several smaller hurdles - the general goal of tutorial areas, and the like.

The other element is how much thought is required to actively play the game; similar to RAM requirements, in computers. Those requirements can vary a lot depending on the current gamestate (that is, the situation one is in within the game), but it is very common for players to be turned off by games that make you 'think too much'. How much active thought a player is willing to invest into a game can vary depending on a wide variety of factors (for instance, outside issues occupying some portion of that player's attention), so it can be very advantageous for a game to appeal appropiately to as many of those investment levels as possible.

In the same way that we choose how to utilise computer programs based on memory usage, players choose to play games based on mental complexity; we won't download a program that takes up more space than it's worth, and players won't play a game which has unnecessarily complicated rules; we won't run a RAM-intensive program unless it's benefiting us significantly, and players won't participate in complicated scenarios unless there's a reason for them to. And just like programmers, game designers are trying to appeal to as wide an audience as possible; understanding that different machines - and different players - will have different tolerances is important. If you want to appeal to as many users as possible, you have to achieve as much as you can, while requiring as few of those resources as is at all practical... sweatdrop


So basically:
Gataka: Let's make the food cheap!
Me: I don't want cheap food, I want good food.
You: Good food can be cheap.
Me: Idk how to make this food cheap and still good tho. xd

And yeah that does make sense though. They need to make sure that the complexity adds enjoyment to the game. 3nodding
gataka's avatar

Familiar Lunatic

Sorry for the huge delay: couldn't find time yesterday and it ended up taking more time than I thought it would.

And I'm not pleased with the result either. HAR! D:<
Berryfarmer
Complexity in zOMG? I'd like to know your examples. It's pretty straightforward and easy to teach, but that's my opinion.

I can't really debate more until I know which things in particular you find complex.

To quote from another game I'm fond of, "It's only as complex as you make it on yourself."
Now you should have a better idea of what I'm getting at. Still think it's straighforward and easy to teach?
WideEyed
Environmental Unity
I definitely think adding examples would help. sweatdrop


What she said.
I've never been a gamer, so I'm a lousy example, but even I was able to figure out the basics on my own, and anything I couldn't figure out, was easily explained in one of the Guides or by asking here in the z!F, so I'm probably not understanding the question.

It's not that the complexity can't be handled or taught (definitely could do a better job at this) it's more about the cost and whether or not we should have it.

Red Kutai

I think the hangup occuring on the word "complexity" has to do with expectations - normally if something is "complex", we assume it has lots of facets or considerations involved. zOMG!'s issue isn't that it has a lot of facets, though, but that so many of them are just completely arbitrary. You can lower the impression of complexity within a system by having obvious relationships between elements - zOMG!, however, largely fails to do this, meaning that its impressional complexity is relatively high for system of its objective complexity.

...I'm not sure that was any clearer. redface

The point is, I wouldn't necessarily say that removing facets is integral - what I'd really advise is to adjust focus to allow for fewer 'core' facets, from which players can logically derive the game's other elements. Furthermore, you'd want to make those 'core' facets as natural as possible, to further lower the barrier-to-entry. Nonetheless, I do feel like I understand where you're coming from... 3nodding
You are. Tho, I'd say my scope is a little wider.
Hashtable
If the game were simpler, I'd probly quit? xd

Not sure I get ya. confused

There are a lot of things that are poorly explained though.. a loot.

A lot indeed.
twister of shadows
If people think clicking a mouse is complex, I don't know how they live their lives. emotion_eyebrow

Clicking a mouse is easy because all the knowledge and locomotor skills needed to do so is well integrated.
Get a robot to do it with the same level of ability and we'll talk :V

...I mean no u thread's about zOMG!, not clicking a mouse talk2hand
Silk Kanishk
DMP is too complex! gonk

Or is it that systems in zOMG! that arren't immediately apparent might come of as complex such as rage ranks, ghi, ring sets, etc. 3nodding

You're heading in the right direction. I also believe them to be more complex than needed.
Red Kutai
Hashtable
If the game were simpler, I'd probly quit? xd

That's the logical equivalent of saying "If my dinner were less expensive, I wouldn't eat it." whee

Complexity is a cost, not an advantage. It's something that is added inadvertently while trying to make a game more interesting, but actually stands to impede players' ability to enjoy a game. It's important that, in adding features to a game, one adds those features which most increase the enjoyability, while minimising the increase in complexity. And as gataka points out, features that are adding more complexity than they're worth should be revised or removed. In the same way that you expect your restauranteur not to use ingredients that are unnecessarily expensive, game designers should not use components that are unnecessarily complex.

While I understand that zOMG! may not be too 'expensive' for you, considering its nature as an 'entry-level' MMO, minimising that barrier-to-entry is really important. I don't think that gataka is really talking about making the game less interesting - rather, that the current complexity isn't worth what we get for it, and that we should be looking for more efficient ways to generate roughly the same results...
So spot on.
Red Kutai
Hashtable
What can I say, rich people don't like cheap food. xd
I would have to see examples to make a judgement on that one. whee

Well, rich people are willing and able to spend more on food, but they still expect the extra cost to equate to higher quality - they may value things a little differently, but the premise that you don't pay more than is necessary is (almost) universal. In terms of gameplay and complexity, there is a spectrum ranging from players who are willing to endure higher costs (like complexity) for more interesting gameplay, to those who seek to minimise costs even if it results in a less strictly engaging game; those two ends are what we refer to as "hardcore" and "casual" gamers, respectively.

zOMG! was concepted, designed, and advertised as a 'casual' game, meaning that its goals should be in line with those of casual gamers' - namely, that it should be working to keep complexity and other costs minimal, and to use any necessary costs as efficiently as possible. Once gataka gets around to sharing some examples, I suspect we'll be able to examine how effectively the game is doing that in greater detail... 3nodding
My examples fail and there's so few of them emo

Why didn't you make tha'thread?
There's enough historical evidence to say that I FAIL at leading threads or discussions.
WideEyed's avatar

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Actually, if I'm reading your OP correctly (which is never a given wink ), then you may have a point.
From the viewpoint of your average non-gamer (raises hand ), most of the complexities of the game are invisible....
We go in, we get a Ring and start hitting stuff, we find a Buff and Heal, and start hitting more stuff, we get some orbs and we make our Rings stronger, rinse, wash repeat.
To this day, there are tons of nuances and subtler complexities around Ring Ranks and leveling, and luck and ghi, and, and, and, that I don't understand, but your average non-gamer, (raises hand again) can do fine as long as they pay attention in their Crew and work at the game when they play.
I have no doubt that a better understanding of the complexities of zOMG! would make me far better than I am.

I also think you might be saying that the way in which the game was written, and all of the inter-woven intricacies, make it harder to program, and therefore fix and add on to, and you probably have a point there as well.

But for the average non-gamer (arm starts to get tired from raising hand so often), that's something best left to the real gamers to discuss. xp
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gataka
Now you should have a better idea of what I'm getting at. Still think it's straighforward and easy to teach?


Still very much so. Like most games you have to have a balance while leveling up or you won't be able to use your maximum potential. Sure you could pour everything into one ring, but what happens when you can't use it or your other rings lag behind? The lesson to teach is "Level your rings evenly for best results." if someone asks why than you can give the big long explanation. In short it follows the axiom "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

I think of Ghi as nice to have perks. Not really essential (and I know I'll probably get killed by the hit points nazis for my statement), but there. The lesson to teach is, "Don't worry about leveling up your Ghi abilities it happens as you play, chat, and mess around on zOMG. And don't worry too much about it when it isn't full."

As for loot think of the animated like a giant pinata. You got lots of kids smacking it trying to get the candy, the kid who hits it hardest is probably going to get more candy. Let's say there are certain highly desirable pieces of candy, jawbreakers versus fun sized chocolate. Well a kid has got to be lucky if they're going to get that jawbreaker instead of the chocolate.

As I said it is only as complex as you want to make it. Most people can enjoy and play without having to worry about the complexities, and the game can be taught without having to delve into them.

Like Pokemon you can enjoy it as game without having to know all the intricacies. You want to level a team up evenly, the bike isn't needed but is a nice to have along with a few other items, and damage and defense and stats have complicated equations that you don't need to know to enjoy the gameplay. The below equations from serebii.net are from Pokemon to show just how complex a leisure game can be under the surface:

Quote:
IV = ((Math.Ceiling(Stat / Stat) - 5) * 100 / Level Value ) - 2 * Base Stat – Effort Points / 4

…And you probably don't know what Math.Ceiling means either. It's basically a term used when you want something rounded up, like to the Ceiling. If it was rounding down, like to a floor, it would be Math.Floor. Simple right? There's also a flaw in this equation, as it counts all of the Effort points, not the ones that have been added to the stat which is what we want outta there, so this equation is a little more accurate.

IV = ((Math.Ceiling(Stat / Stat) - 5) * 100 / Level Value) - 2 * Base Stat – Math.Floor(Effort Points / 4)

As for the HP Individual Value equation, here it is without edit:

Hit Point IV = (( Stat - Level - 10 ) * 100/Level ) - 2 * BaseStat - EV/4

Of course, we face the same problem as the other equation, so here's the edited version:

Hit Point IV = ((Stat – Level Value - 10) * 100 / Level Value ) - 2 * BaseStat – Math.Floor(EV / 4)

As you can see there's a lot of things you need in order to do these equations to get the Individual Value that this returns to you. The most important thing you need is the stat, apparently. The second thing you need is the Stat, which is basically what effect the personality has towards your stats. Now because we know that Natures can give a +10% increase towards a stat, or a -10% decrease towards a stat, we need to convert that to an actual number so that it can work in the equation.

If the Nature gives a +10% increase to a stat, then the Stat = 1.1
If the Nature doesn't have an effect towards the stat, then the Stat = 1
If the Nature gives a -10% decrease to a stat, then the Stat = 0.9

The last thing you need are the Effort Points gained from battle, which are explained in another guide. Effort Points are equal to zero if you never battled with it yet, or used rare candies to level up, or even used the daycare to level up.

Quote:
The formula for determining the capture of the Pokémon is as follows:

CatchValue = ((( 3 * Max HP - 2 * HP ) * (Catch Rate * Ball Modifier ) / (3 * Max HP) ) * Status Modifier

Status Modifier
Frozen 2
Sleep 2
Paralysis 1.5
Burn 1.5
Poison 1.5
None 1

The Capture Value for that is then put through another equation to determine whether or not the Pokémon is to be captured

Catch = 1048560 / √(√(16711680 / CatchValue)) = (2^20 - 2^4) / √(√((2^24 - 2^16) / CatchValue))

Quote:
Attack Damage is one of the more simple equations:
Damage = ((((2 * Level / 5 + 2) * AttackStat * AttackPower / DefenseStat) / 50) + 2) * STAB * Weakness/Resistance * RandomNumber / 100
Starshine's avatar

Magical Gatekeeper

I don't think comparing zomg to go is fair, lol. The basic rules for zomg are a lot more complex than go's rules, while at the same time they don't produce the amount of variability that can happen in a game of go. If zomg was like go, the animated would have one ring, we'd have another, and it all comes down to where we use it, 20 points for a headshot!

Chess might be a better example, all the pieces (rings) have a set rule that they follow, in certain conditions pieces like pawns follow a different rule. Frankly chess is still fairly simple, a computer can easily map out all possible ways to advance.

I think I'm heading off topic sweatdrop Anyways, I believe the rules for zOMG is more complex than chess, you have to remember far too many things. And a casual MMO shouldn't be this way.

The fact that speed, stamina regeneration and luck don't increase with CL are things that are never stated ingame, and so many people assumes that they do.

Persistent armor and reflection are two other things you can't see the stats for, and few people know how they work. In most MMOs a reflection bonus will have figures attached to the skill. Like 5% chance to reflect 50% of damage received. In zomg you get some vaguely worded description. Like this ring will reflect some damage back at the animated!

Really not helpful at all.
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

WideEyed
To this day, there are tons of nuances and subtler complexities around Ring Ranks and leveling, and luck and ghi, and, and, and, that I don't understand, but your average non-gamer, (raises hand again) can do fine as long as they pay attention in their Crew and work at the game when they play.

It's worth mentioning that what you're describing can be a good thing - hiding complexity on a 'need-to-know' basis actually reduces the impressional complexity of a game, allowing players to only invest as much 'brainspace' as they really want to. This becomes an issue, however, when - as gataka pointed out with his example of ring power - the game doesn't function as expected without that knowledge. If the knowledge is optional, players should be able to make reasonably informed decisions without it - for the vast majority of zOMG!'s mechanics, that optional knowledge directly undermines players' natural inclinations.
Berryfarmer
Like most games you have to have a balance while leveling up or you won't be able to use your maximum potential. Sure you could pour everything into one ring, but what happens when you can't use it or your other rings lag behind? The lesson to teach is "Level your rings evenly for best results." if someone asks why than you can give the big long explanation. In short it follows the axiom "Don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Firstly, this is a beginner's MMO - the notion of presuming your audience has knowledge of "most games" isn't fair, in this instance.

Even so, most games I'm familiar with behave quite the opposite of how you describe - players generally only level the abilities that are relevant to their character build or class. When was the last time you played a game that encouraged Fighter archetypes to have anything but the bare minimum of Intelligence? And the reason for this is pretty simple, actually - that's what's natural. Players like what they like; they want to level what they want to level; and being forced to level things they don't want is a useless restriction.
Quote:
I think of Ghi as nice to have perks. Not really essential (and I know I'll probably get killed by the hit points nazis for my statement), but there. The lesson to teach is, "Don't worry about leveling up your Ghi abilities it happens as you play, chat, and mess around on zOMG. And don't worry too much about it when it isn't full."

Any feature whose explanation is "It's best just to ignore it" is uselessly complex. G'hi adds nothing to the game, but is still complex to fully understand.
Quote:
Like Pokemon you can enjoy it as game without having to know all the intricacies. You want to level a team up evenly, the bike isn't needed but is a nice to have along with a few other items, and damage and defense and stats have complicated equations that you don't need to know to enjoy the gameplay.

It's important to point out that the Pokemon series is very good at achieving what I was referring to, earlier; the game functions very much how one would expect (Water is good against Fire, Fire against Grass, Grass against Water) even for players who know nothing about the underlying mechanics. Greater knowledge of those mechanics allows players to make progressively more effective decisions, but the game is still perfectly sensible without it. zOMG!, conversely, opposes player instinct if they aren't appropriately aware of all the complex and nuanced mechanics in play - making the amount of information needed to play the game effectively much higher, relatively speaking...
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Red Kutai
Firstly, this is a beginner's MMO - the notion of presuming your audience has knowledge of "most games" isn't fair, in this instance.

Even so, most games I'm familiar with behave quite the opposite of how you describe - players generally only level the abilities that are relevant to their character build or class. When was the last time you played a game that encouraged Fighter archetypes to have anything but the bare minimum of Intelligence? And the reason for this is pretty simple, actually - that's what's natural. Players like what they like; they want to level what they want to level; and being forced to level things they don't want is a useless restriction.

Alright stepping out of the most games assumption: Let’s look at this as someone coming fresh from childhood or life. Growing up we’re always educated in such a manner that we should be balanced well rounded people. We learn literature, mathematics, science, physical education, social studies, and hopefully art (though schools seem to be cutting this). Education systems are keen on the rounded out set of skills.

Now stepping into the game world: My background is mostly “Build your own fighter,” Pokemon, and Dungeons and Dragons. In the build your own fighter games you could max out one stat: defense, health, or attack, or you could keep them about even and there are advantages and disadvantages. Maxing attack often sacrifices defense and or health, max defense sacrifice attack and or health, max health sacrifices attack and or defense. The max attacker tends to be very frail and if they get hit they go down, the max defense doesn’t take much damage but doesn’t deal much damage, the max health can sponge but may not be able to effectively attack. The well rounded fighter is often times more effective because he can attack, defend and has health. In the hands of a skilled player any of the three max builds can do wonders, but for starting out the well rounded is easier to use.

Translating that into zOMG, a “beginner’s mmo,” building a balanced ringset is more beginner friendly than going all out into one field. I see a ringset like a Pokemon team you can’t build an effective team out of just attackers (attack rings) or just tanks (buffs and healing rings), with higher degrees of skill you might be able to, but for most a balanced set is more simple.

When it comes to D&D, I see the campaign as the game and the different players as either a crew or at a micro level a ringset. Either of which needs balance. That being said leveling up in a balanced fashion seems reasonable and logical.
Quote:
Any feature whose explanation is "It's best just to ignore it" is uselessly complex. G'hi adds nothing to the game, but is still complex to fully understand.

While it doesn’t add much, it’s really not that complex as I see it. It levels up slowly by just playing the game and gives you nifty little passive effects for perks. The perks gradually level up themselves and their strength is tied to a separate gauge from other things. Might be a simplification, but in general that’s how it works, the thing that might be complex about it is how the gauge effects the strength of the perk.

Quote:
It's important to point out that the Pokemon series is very good at achieving what I was referring to, earlier; the game functions very much how one would expect (Water is good against Fire, Fire against Grass, Grass against Water) even for players who know nothing about the underlying mechanics. Greater knowledge of those mechanics allows players to make progressively more effective decisions, but the game is still perfectly sensible without it. zOMG!, conversely, opposes player instinct if they aren't appropriately aware of all the complex and nuanced mechanics in play - making the amount of information needed to play the game effectively much higher, relatively speaking...

And what I point out is mechanically, zOMG is not nearly as complex as Pokemon. Pokemon has elements, damaging moves, special versus physical, stat calculation, Hidden Powers, buff moves, effort training, capture chances, and a slew of other features and presents them simply, unless you choose to delve deeper. In zOMG you have buff, healing, attack, crowd control, health, stamina, and ghi. Each of those have their own divisions but it remains straightforward that damage done is compared to defenses you have. You can easily pick it up and become a good player without needing to understand much more than the surface details. Anecdotally, I was able to play through on two accounts without understanding much more than “buff A does effect x” and “attack B does effect y and has range z.”

Again, only as complex as you decide to make it on yourself. In my opinion zOMG isn’t complex to the point of needing to be simplified any further.
Starshine's avatar

Magical Gatekeeper

Berryfarmer

I think what Red was trying to say is that zOMG isn't as intuitive as Pokemon.

I'd have to agree, any game where tougher mobs gives less drops than the ones on your level breaks my logical circuit. Why is my effort not being rewarded? Why are you forcing me to be so mediocre? gonk

Coming from a hardcore MMO background, it gets worse, every other game I've played, it's all about "omg save your stat points", "dont waste skill points on derp skills", and "kill it before it kills you!".

The SAD set does not work, the cake is a lie emo
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Starshine
Berryfarmer

I think what Red was trying to say is that zOMG isn't as intuitive as Pokemon.

I'd have to agree, any game where tougher mobs gives less drops than the ones on your level breaks my logical circuit. Why is my effort not being rewarded? Why are you forcing me to be so mediocre? gonk

Coming from a hardcore MMO background, it gets worse, every other game I've played, it's all about "omg save your stat points", "dont waste skill points on derp skills", and "kill it before it kills you!".

The SAD set does not work, the cake is a lie emo


I'm arguing coming from playing Pokemon since the Red/Blue era to the present Black/White era that zOMG is a lot more intuitive. It doesn't have the higher mechanics to muddy it up and make it complex. zOMG ringsets are made of 8 rings chosen from currently 43, 44 possible rings, each Pokemon on a team gets 4 out of over 460 possible moves.
Example: Team building in Pokemon (competitive single battle) vs Crew Building for zOMG going after Bloodlust. Both I think are fair approximations of where the mechanics from each game would show the most complexity.

Pokemon Team:
Setup Lead (normally either a physical or special tank)
Special Sweeper
Physical Sweeper
Mixed Tank
Special/Physical/Mixed Sweeper
Counter to opponent's setup lead
The Pokemon team contains 6 out of over 600 possible Pokemon each with a moveset that has to be tailored to their role and expected enemies. As mentioned before there are over 460 possible moves.

Crew for zOMG:
Healer
Damage dealer
Tank
CCer
Damage dealer
Damage dealer
The zOMG crew, each member has a designated role and through trial and error which ringsets work best for each role and how to use it is pretty concrete.

Using your own argument of stat points, zOMG doesn't use stat points or force you into classes. Instead there are charge orbs and rings, not nearly as complex to level up or train in no?

Sorry if I come off rude, I'm in a very tired state right now. I can't get my Litwick's IV's to breed correctly after 70+ eggs.
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gataka


Mmmm I do believe I do now fully agree. 3nodding

Lol as for how to fix it, I'm still not sure.. I'm sleepy atm. xd
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Shameless Noob

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Starshine
I don't think comparing zomg to go is fair, lol. The basic rules for zomg are a lot more complex than go's rules, while at the same time they don't produce the amount of variability that can happen in a game of go. If zomg was like go, the animated would have one ring, we'd have another, and it all comes down to where we use it, 20 points for a headshot!

Chess might be a better example, all the pieces (rings) have a set rule that they follow, in certain conditions pieces like pawns follow a different rule. Frankly chess is still fairly simple, a computer can easily map out all possible ways to advance.

I think I'm heading off topic sweatdrop Anyways, I believe the rules for zOMG is more complex than chess, you have to remember far too many things. And a casual MMO shouldn't be this way.

The fact that speed, stamina regeneration and luck don't increase with CL are things that are never stated ingame, and so many people assumes that they do.

Persistent armor and reflection are two other things you can't see the stats for, and few people know how they work. In most MMOs a reflection bonus will have figures attached to the skill. Like 5% chance to reflect 50% of damage received. In zomg you get some vaguely worded description. Like this ring will reflect some damage back at the animated!

Really not helpful at all.


Lol I wasn't trying to compare go with zOMG. xd I was trying to get a paradigm on what type of complexity he was talking about. rofl

Tbh though, most things in life (such as life itself) can be compared to go, but I won't get into that. rofl

As for armors (and other rings), YES RING DESCRIPTIONS need to be better.. Trying to explain to someone "this ring is better than that ring." is really hard especially when people have to go out and research themselves to find out how ANY of the rings match up (thank god for the z!F or we'd ALL be carrying solar in DMS lawl. emotion_awesome )

Stamina costs, regen time, etc. All make perfect sense in game to share IMO, so why do they out extreme, weak, etc.. maybe to shield people from CL math? Better ways to do that though..

And I was TC 20k+ before I knew that accuracy caused critical hits and dodge lowered them. >w< Poorly explained. xd

@OP:
Wasn't the ghi system to encourage people to crew?
But how the hell can it do that if noone understands how it works (literally Boone.. I still hear people saying like oh.. talk in chat to make your this go up. xd )

We already have buffs and such to do tha--oh wait noobs don't know about those either. sweatdrop

I vote remove the ghi bar and set everyone at 100 gh. xd

The weighted average system does make sense.. (wouldn't want someone going with 7 rings unsuppressed to a low level area. sweatdrop So not sure there.. hmm..

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