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Aryvane's avatar

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beckygrendel
You're going to need a thicker skin if you're going to continue posting on the interwebs.

I didn't realize this was one of those "only post if you agree with everything I say" threads.

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emotion_facepalm

"OMG Aryvane I'm so offended by your usage of 'Elitist'!"

later:

"OMG Aryvane you shouldn't be on the internet if you're easily offended!"

I don't mind people arguing with me. I love to learn from others.
I simply feel like the conversation I'm having with you is rather
similar to trying to play music to a herdbeast. It'd getting us
nowhere, and not even quickly.
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Aryvane
beckygrendel
Comparing my posts and reactions to any of Curt Neko's is comparing apples to oranges. If you think I'm attacking you, you're mistaken.


From your original post:

beckygrendel
rolleyes < general contempt / disapproval General annoyance/here we go again emote.

Instead of providing a comprehensive guide that can help the community, you chose to take swipes at our dedication to beating Kamila in the early stages of DMS being opened.

^ Making an incorrect assumption about the point of my thread and berating me for it

I really expected more from a "Forum Assistant."

^ Outright telling me that I'm unfit for my job (based on what evidence?) Saying she expected more from someone of your position, not outright saying you're doing your job wrong. Just not putting yourself in the best position when using the term elitist (Which was, honestly, used pretty cruelly/contemptuously to describe a lot of us hardcore first-gen players.)

Way to unite the community! /sarcasm

^ No commentary needed here




I'm not going to say either of you are right or wrong and I think you're both getting kind of aggressive towards eachother in your own ways. I agree with Becky, I don't think that Elitist was the best term choice, since it has a bad connotation for the older players. I chose to ignore it since there was no malice meant.
beckygrendel's avatar

Aged Nerd

Aryvane
beckygrendel
You're going to need a thicker skin if you're going to continue posting on the interwebs.

I didn't realize this was one of those "only post if you agree with everything I say" threads.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.

emotion_facepalm

"OMG Aryvane I'm so offended by your usage of 'Elitist'!"

later:

"OMG Aryvane you shouldn't be on the internet if you're easily offended!"

I don't mind people arguing with me. I love to learn from others.
I simply feel like the conversation I'm having with you is rather
similar to trying to play music to a herdbeast. It'd getting us
nowhere, and not even quickly.


I wasn't offended in any way, shape or form. I simply thought your usage of the word detracted from the message you were trying to convey. You're the one in this conversation who appears to have been offended.

My kids have been out of high school for over 10 years. I'm not used to arguing with teenagers.
Aryvane's avatar

Cat

beckygrendel
I wasn't offended in any way, shape or form. I simply thought your usage of the word detracted from the message you were trying to convey. You're the one in this conversation who appears to have been offended.

My kids have been out of high school for over 10 years. I'm not used to arguing with teenagers.

Not so much offended as exasperated, trying to figure out
exactly where we are.

I stand by my first response to your contributions.

"I'm sorry for any offense meant. I think your comment
was incredibly aggressive. Thank you for taking the time
to respond to my thread nonetheless."

Please. Are we done?
beckygrendel's avatar

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Aryvane
Please. Are we done?


Yes
Red Kutai's avatar

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Aryvane
I used "elitist" as a descriptive term, more than anything. In fact, I defined the term specifically
as the first generation of zOMG! players who developed a bunch of tactics that they later
passed on to newer players
.

I don't believe there was anything derogative in that statement. I didn't bring up any "elitist
thing;" I didn't give or ask for opinions concerning elitists or their dedication to zOMG!. In fact,
I used the word "elitist" as a synonym for "first-generation player," as a title rather than an adjective.

If I had the power to simply strike terms from the zOMG! vernacular - I've tried, though, and I don't sweatdrop - "elitist" would be be very high on my list (second only to "abuse", I think). At this point there is simply too much ambiguity in the meaning of the term for it to be useful anywhere, and as becky indicates the result is that it tends to generate an undue amount of confusion and strife. If your goal is to communicate anything clearly in the z!F, I'd strongly encourage avoiding the word altogether.

I understand that you defined the term explicitly as you used it, but the trouble is that even explicit definitions don't eliminate negative connotations - you could define "jerk" or "buffoon" as "first-generation player" just as easily, but it's obvious why that would be offensive. Because "elitist" still carries similarly negative implications - and indeed, those implications serve as the primary definition of the term for many users in the community - it's hard to argue that it's any better than calling them "jerks". I can see why having a term within the context of the guide would be useful or even necessary, but something neutral - like "oldbie" - or even only comically derisive - like, say, "fogey" - would get your point across just as well (or, arguably, even better), without evoking anything genuinely negative. 3nodding
curtneko
her guide clearly contains humourous elements that weren't meant to offend, but you took those humourous elements seriously

The trouble is that "elitist" isn't really a funny word. "Kumquat" is, though. Indeed, it's such a funny word that they likely couldn't be offended if they tried. If the goal were humour, there are many other terms that cover that ground better. wink

Similarly, if the goal were objective accuracy, "elitist" still doesn't hold its ground - it has established meanings other than the one being used here, even within the context of zOMG!. While that ambiguity was introduced by those who tried to 'own' the term in the first place, propagating it through continued use only exascerbates the issue.
beckygrendel
Yes, now you get it! It was an inside joke which lost its hilarity long ago.

If it were ever hilarious in the first place, you mean. razz

That said, I don't believe anyone was intending to be offensive here, dear; it's just the ambiguity of the term that's causing problems. I assume she genuinely defines the term as she uses it here - I think you were right to question it, but I don't think she was wrong to use the term that made sense to her, either. If the term simply had a single definition, there would be no problem here - we just have to recognise that the "elitist" she was using is not quite the same as the "elitist" that we read. I think that you and I can agree that that's justification enough to abandon the term altogether - and I pray we will, eventually - but I don't think that we can really consider it anything more malicious than a miscommunication...
curtneko's avatar

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Red Kutai
curtneko
her guide clearly contains humourous elements that weren't meant to offend, but you took those humourous elements seriously

The trouble is that "elitist" isn't really a funny word. "Kumquat" is, though. Indeed, it's such a funny word that they likely couldn't be offended if they tried. If the goal were humour, there are many other terms that cover that ground better. wink

Similarly, if the goal were objective accuracy, "elitist" still doesn't hold its ground - it has established meanings other than the one being used here, even within the context of zOMG!. While that ambiguity was introduced by those who tried to 'own' the term in the first place, propagating it through continued use only exascerbates the issue.
"elitist" can be humourous when you consider it in context, with the "elitist era" clearly referring to the playful egotism of becky and her friends way back when

even if ary intended it to mean what becky assumed it meant, there wasn't a problem until becky posted
Red Kutai's avatar

Benevolent Codger

curtneko
even if ary intended it to mean what becky assumed it meant, there wasn't a problem until becky posted

Much the same way that having a piranha in one's trousers isn't a problem until it bites you. wink

You see, the problem is that the wording has the capacity to make people upset - that someone proceeded to become upset doesn't somehow disprove that there was a problem. The problem existed from the time the term was used (and indeed, exists every time the term is used); it became obvious and practically relevant when becky posted, because that's the point at which we were actually confronted with it. Saying that it's fine to use the term so long as no-one reacts negatively to it is akin to saying it's fine to use one's trousers as piranha tank so long as they don't take a nibble - when one is the logical conclusion of the other, it simply doesn't make sense...
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Aryvane
.
I love the way your guide reads, and the humorous post history of DMS (All true, IMO, and laughable). 3nodding approves 3nodding I hope to see more of your insight on how to play together using differing YM speeding styles. (Ps: rofl rofl rofl *lawlz* rofl rofl rofl ) Nice job.
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I finally manage to find and install a browser that plays nice with flash games like zOMG!, and then Ary posts information and strategies that make me feel like a jaded trench warfare veteran past his prime.

Suppose that's what I get for pretty much giving up on being able to play zOMG! for several months. Ah well, the infodump Ary decided to share is illuminating, and I'm strangely okay with being obsolete. If nothing else, it gives me an excuse to crack "Back in my day" jokes should anyone ever crew up with me.
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Man! People should so be over the whole "elitist" thing. And here I thought there was some stimulating discussions going on for 8 pages.
curtneko's avatar

IRL Cat

Red Kutai
curtneko
even if ary intended it to mean what becky assumed it meant, there wasn't a problem until becky posted

Much the same way that having a piranha in one's trousers isn't a problem until it bites you. wink

You see, the problem is that the wording has the capacity to make people upset - that someone proceeded to become upset doesn't somehow disprove that there was a problem. The problem existed from the time the term was used (and indeed, exists every time the term is used); it became obvious and practically relevant when becky posted, because that's the point at which we were actually confronted with it. Saying that it's fine to use the term so long as no-one reacts negatively to it is akin to saying it's fine to use one's trousers as piranha tank so long as they don't take a nibble - when one is the logical conclusion of the other, it simply doesn't make sense...
so we should be responsible for the piranha (becky) being unable to resist biting? because we obviously didn't put trousers on with a piranha in them on purpose!

the problem isn't that the wording has the capacity to make people upset, the problem is that becky makes it personal then displays a "you know what, i don't care" attitude (the start of a "shitstorm", as she put it)

she either deals with it, or embraces resolve
curtneko's avatar

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beckygrendel
Aryvane

Good day to you.

Not for your sake,
but for the sake of other thread creators.


You're going to need a thicker skin if you're going to continue posting on the interwebs.

I didn't realize this was one of those "only post if you agree with everything I say" threads.

User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.
she's defending her thread, you're taking "elitist" personally

if you say you aren't, then why pick at it at all?

if you don't want a shitstorm, don't start one
curtneko's avatar

IRL Cat

Proletariat Porno
Aryvane
beckygrendel
Comparing my posts and reactions to any of Curt Neko's is comparing apples to oranges. If you think I'm attacking you, you're mistaken.


From your original post:

beckygrendel
rolleyes < general contempt / disapproval General annoyance/here we go again emote.

Instead of providing a comprehensive guide that can help the community, you chose to take swipes at our dedication to beating Kamila in the early stages of DMS being opened.

^ Making an incorrect assumption about the point of my thread and berating me for it

I really expected more from a "Forum Assistant."

^ Outright telling me that I'm unfit for my job (based on what evidence?) Saying she expected more from someone of your position, not outright saying you're doing your job wrong. Just not putting yourself in the best position when using the term elitist (Which was, honestly, used pretty cruelly/contemptuously to describe a lot of us hardcore first-gen players.)

Way to unite the community! /sarcasm

^ No commentary needed here




I'm not going to say either of you are right or wrong and I think you're both getting kind of aggressive towards eachother in your own ways. I agree with Becky, I don't think that Elitist was the best term choice, since it has a bad connotation for the older players. I chose to ignore it since there was no malice meant.
it wasn't personal/offensive until becky chose to post (rather than simply being mature and ignoring it)

if she's going to berate the thread and ary for her use of the word because she doesn't want it to "start something", perhaps becky shouldn't... y'know, start something?
beckygrendel's avatar

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