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*reads OP* all look pretty cool... too lazy to analyze each in depth.

But I definitely have wanted several of those for quite a while... like health using rings.

I also want a self destruct ring... for crew use only (or the soloer with lots of revives) wink

I like the idea about DoT especially, I want something to make our 4-5ish exact replicas of defense rings to differ somewhat more.

Anyways, overall I really like all the ideas stated and would love to see them in game.

This makes me think of animated with a variety of attacks that they can have (like the old walkers, with either ranged DoT or melee). I want animated that randomly have like 2 out of 10 possible attacks, to keep things interesting.

Oh well, I'll stop before I go more off topic. xd

Familiar Lunatic

Okay, lets answer these >.>
tangocat777
Yes, lag would get in the way of the sinusoidal strategy. It sucks, but I'm sure players with relatively good connections would get a kick out of it. Sinusoidal attacks are my attempt at bringing advanced mathematics into computer games. Of course, I believe that players will be pretty impressed when developers explain a new attack concept that is a bit over the average player's head, but then they'll try it and see how it works from their perspective.
You can think of me as the reflect expert, man. And yes, crit reflects do occur now. And being the reflection kinda guy that I am, I wanna see even more deadly reflections. Right now there's a limit to how often reflects can occur, but increasing the damage of reflects could be balanced pretty similarly to other attacks.
I don't think lag would be much of a problem. If the frequency is low enough, those with a fair connection really shouldn't have any problem. It's only the heavy cases that could have trouble with it, and they would only have to avoid such rings. I wouldn't have trouble with it between my frozen screens.

You wouldn't quite have to explain the math/concept actually. See that flashing light? Activate your ring when it's at its brightest and you'll hit harder. Easy. If there's a way to tell when you reach the top. Like the Rage bar turning into the Fishing power bar, but likely way faster. And there should be, otherwise there's too much luck.

I'll keep that in mind. Can Reflected attacks miss? I'm totally for giving the players a way to build upon Reflection, if they're willing to "pay" for it. Turn it into a weapon, an actually strategy. Since the power of Reflection largely depends on the incoming attack, a fair bit of luck, and doesn't really cost anything (a way to improve it may), I wouldn't compare it to attack rings, thought. It's not something that depends on you.

Familiar Lunatic

Aseres
snazzy form is snazzy!


  1. Back Stab: not sure if this can be implemented easily, it'd work in conjunction with a stealth ring, or for pvp.
    I really need to reword it. >.<
    See my answer to Lobotryas comment. A Stealth ring could somehow work on the basis of Animated cone of vision being less reactive, or more limited, allowing you to hit them first more easily, or simply sneak past with ease.
    First Strike ( ew name) couldn't work for PvP. There's no mechanical way to catch a player off-guard, no Hate List to base the system on. Nor for enemies also: the idea is to allow us a way to catch'em kneeling, like they do unto us.

  2. Varied Crit Modifiers: if there are a few more ways to modify your crit rate, yes... but currently.. hmm
    I'm always aiming for the future. But the future starts now.
    I think having the Crit Rate relate to the individual ring in some way, like Val suggested, might be an option. Thing is, Crits are powerful. So high Crit% weapons would normally have to be weak, making them less interesting choices, unless you're aiming for Crits. Sort of.
    I've been juggling with a ring idea that would allow you to occasionally guarantee a Crit, allowing you build on the system for occasional seriously high 1-hit damage. But since Crits currently don't relate to the rings themselves, I wasn't sure how to balance it. Used with Hunter's Bow: No prob. Used with a Raged, Power Uped, Hack that has seen it's Crit modifier maximized: OUCH.
    And if First Strike is implemented, that's a way to improve your Crit Rate.

  3. Fixed damage: don't see the point in this if you have always-hit-rings
    I'm not sure why you're mixing the two together ._O
    Non-DoT ring see their damage fluctuates by something close to 20% above and below the rings real/average damage, ignoring Crits. If ring Bob deals 100 on average, an individual hit can be anything between 80 and 120. This means a hit could be 40% stronger than the one that follows, leading to situations where killing something could take anything between, say, 8 or 12 successful hits. Fixed damage takes this out of the way. If you kill a fluff in 10 connecting hits, you will kill all such fluffs with the same number of successful hits.
    If it is combined with sure-hitting stuff, you get a ring that kills stuff in a non-fluctuating reliable way with a known cost, which could be problematic.

  4. Always-Hits damaging effects: I do think that different rings should have different land-rates. Mantis should have a higher landrate then hack or slack for example, I'm not sure if there's a base-land-rate-mechanic in the game though
    Land rate is based on your Accuracy Vs Target's Dodge, and my expirementations lead me to believe you can't go below something like a 60% land rate, nor can you truly reach 100%.
    I think it would be best to keep landrates to Stats, but that's a long discussion.

  5. On miss effects: could be fun in some cases, but would make overall ring design even more confusing if applied more
    Eh, they can take it.
  6. Context sensitive effects: I'm not a fan of 5000 side effects. I like things clear and crisp. That doesn't really contradict the idea itself, but a few of your applications
    Okay. Anywhich example isn't crispy enough?
  7. Sustainable/Ongoing effects: we have this for passive rings: healing halo and divinity... not sure if the programming would allow this for offensive rings, but if it'd be great for a summon ring!
    HH and Div modify a Stat that happens to follow a rate mechanic. It's not quite the same thing, even if there are similarities, to keep it short.
  8. On death effects: yeah, I've thought about something like that: a sacrifice ring that would benefit nearby allies (ie recharge them completely, but then I got reminded that that could be spammed and abused... so this particular one was a no-go. I do like the sacrifice idea, but it'd have to be good enough to be worth a ring slot, yet not too good)
    The intent here was to have something trigger when you die, not a ring that kills you when you use it. And likely has a secondary effect. Among other things.
  9. After effects: hmm, possibly too much side-effect-stuff for my taste again, could be alright if implemented right
  10. Chaining: I'd like to see manual chaining! Meaning you hit fast enough and get a dmg boost if you chain well (dragonica anyone?!)
    Expand a little, Dragoncia tells me nothing. You mean the player has a short window of opportunity to somehow chain together multiple targets? Wouldn't keyboard users have a clear advantage?
  11. On/Off rings: toggles! not sure if the programming allowes for that, but I like the idea a LOT
    I doubt it would be hard to create. It's quite similar to kneeling. There would be a cooldown to limit how fast you can toggle, like kneeling.
  12. Placement on the hand has an effect on the ring: not casual, but the game isn't casual either way, so w/e, haha
    This one needs work.
  13. HP cost: yup, I've toyed with that idea too
  14. Orbs as ammo: that would probably require too much programming to be worth it, it'd be cool if you could temporarily "overcharge" single rings though
    I've played with "overcharging" too, but really can't see how this would be better than simply improving the rings level. Maybe as a temporary boost to help you go through that boss, or something.
  15. Drawbacks: yeah, been brainstorming that as well
  16. Piercing: durr
    Yar.
  17. Pulling effects: like in Aion? would be a fun skill for tanks, but not sure if it's worth a ringslot, maybe have it as a side effect for taunt at higher rage ranks
    zOMG is the only MMOish game I've played. So if it's not D&D or some N64 game, I likely never heard about it. >.>
    And I was thinking of an Harpoon Gun ring, ranged attack that reels in the target, part of the Undersea Marshall set >.>
    And such effects not being worth a slot 'cause killing stuff works is something I'm working on. I believe this needs addressing, and I have countless ideas that would dwarf this very thread.

  18. Conversion: vr! In L2 this skill is a dealbreaker.. I think it'd do well in zOMG too
  19. Absorption: draaainnnn... would have to be somewhat crappy dmg to not be OP, great ring for soloers
    Needs rewording too. The damage is blocked and you gain only 2 Stamina. Since it would likely be less frequent than Reflexion, so less than 11% at it's best, you would get on average 20 Stamina for every 100 attacks that don't miss you. >.<
  20. Armor that weakens: that's like armor pool, isn't it?
    Nope: Armor keeps it's full strengh for the whole duration, but has a small chance of breaking before if the absorbed damage breaks the Pools limit.
    Say some Armor Pool offers 50% reduction and has a pool of 100.
    You are hit by an attack that normally deals 10 damage.
    You take 5 damage and the pool takes 5 too, reducing it to 95.
    If the pool reachs 0, the spell breaks.
    The idea will never break, only time out.
    Say you have a weakening Armor offering 50% protection with a minmum of 25%, and every hit weakens it by 5%.
    You are hit by 10 conscutive attacks dealing 10 damage.

    1. The first is cut in half (50% protection), you receive 5 damage
    2. The protection is now 45%, so the second attack deals 4.5 damage, whatever that means.
    3. Now it's 40%, so 4dmg
    4. Then 35%, 3.5 dmg
    5. 30%, 3
    6. 25% 2.5, it will stay at that point for all the remianing attacks, unless you give it a break and get out of battle.


@___________________@

Familiar Lunatic

Ungoliath
You're not cool for making a thread. You're cool for making a cool thread cool
I know cool
Valid Crit Modifiers could make Keen Aye for some use. I like the idea
Mmmm..Accuracy...long story...I was thinking Adrenaline could improve your Crit Mod, among other things.
I did not understand what you mean with your third point, and liked the forth one. I believe right now Bow is working like that.
Fixed Damage: see my answer to Aseres on this.
Always-Hits damaging effects: Bow can Miss. So I'm confused. Unless you meant the fifth point?
I'm not sure if the Debuff is an attack on it's own. My memory tells you have to hit with the damage for the Debuff to take effect. It's an easy thing to check.

You fifth point is EXCELLENT. I think it could bring the balance zOMG! currently needs. Some risks and some prices for making moves.
I believe we're on point 7 now, Ongoing/Sustainable. Are we? ._ONVM, Bad consequences for missing. I'd say for the more risk part, as a general rule, no:
zOMG is limited in true challenges because of how much Luck comes into play. Buffs greatly reduces it's influence, that's why things become easy while under their influence. Having more random risk only adds to the Chaos. The risk should come from without.
Willingly using a ring that may backfire at random is a choice, and the idea here works on misses which can be minimised. Having to improve your Accuracy becomes a price for using this ring. I'm obviously up for rings that taxe more than just your Stamina, but it's usually enough. I don't think the general challenge should be based much on having to the juggle the good and bad of using A or B, while handling various resources. More about reacting properly to a given situation with what you have. Sorta.

The sixth one would be cool, but unneeded. Although the bleeding seems coherent...Since some monster in higher levels already have it, it becomes -again- unneeded.
Point 16? Piercing? As in DoT breaking through Armor? >.>
Or is it really point 6, Context sensitive effects? I'm lost.
I don't think we need Summon rings. >.>
This one opens up a lot of possible effects. I've only given a few examples that came to me at the moment of writting. Think about it.
But there effectively are Animated scripted to do something similar. But they change attack/behavior, it's not the power that changes. Not quite the same thing.

The seventh idea maybe the key to summons and I like the other examples as well. Not being able to move SEEMS like the right balance for them.
Not being able to move isn't much in the current gameplay. Not being able to do something else on the other hand...
I can't make an opinion on the eight one, would be biased xd And I did not got the ninth one.
Opinions are biased by design.
Ninth: I think Val's idea of Turtle having a Dervish-like effect when it ends is a good example. Basically an effect that triggers when an effect that has a duration ends.

10 is something some users were asking to Qixter a long time ago, I still think it's a perfect idea.
Classic.
11 is something I would like and use, but not as rings but as something else. As a powerup seems kinda cool. I don't know, just saying. Maybe as a set effect. Even maybe as the aura suggestion of Nexus. Instead of being 10, make it 10%.
The possibilities are endless. Why wouldn't you want it to be a ring?
12 seems interesting, although it has some issues. Right now place matters for Defib issues, for example. I don't know, seems that need to be worked out about WHY it should be like this. Needs a reason and explicit the numbers.
Yar, working on it.
15 is something the game needs in general. I know it's better to not have punishment and what-so-ever, but I still think that some users would be DELIGHTED to move hell out slow if they can go all Leeroy Jenkings.
Yep, that's the goal. Offers does who want to "Min-Max", really specialize in some way, a way to do so. Also to balance more powerful effects. But the game is currently too easy to allow either in interesting ways.
16 seems like a bug report, so nothing to say here.
Maybe. If it is, FIX it! Now. >.>
17 is awesome. I remember sometime ago a suggestion about a Magnetic Ring to do that, but I think that works better as an effect of some rings. It's what happens with Taunt right now, it's not good enough to make it usable. Now, if you were able to choose what you taunt and cover a larger area by selection...It would be better. Auto-approaching seems to feat this idea, though.
Doesn't fit Taunt to me. Stil, it may be the only way to make it "work".
18 and 19 seems a cool plus, I like both. BUT included not as separate rings but as a secondary effects.
Aye. I don't think we need another 15% Persistent Armor ring, thought.
About what can be implemented or not, I pass of making an statement. Different from the rest I just don't know how the code works and if devs can pull it out.
Now to read what zOMGusers said.

Urg...

Familiar Lunatic

Ungoliath
The necromancer and Martyr sets idea interest me. keep talking. ninja
I like the idea of a timing ring. The bigger the CL, the faster that variation will be.
[...]
They're shady concepts, created to explore the various ideas I come up with. Like smoke, they don't have a definitive form and tend to mutate frequently. For now. ninja

No other ring becomes inherently harder to properly use as their level increases. An none should. The whole game mechanics doesn't get more complicated. Everything just scales. Both a boon and a curse.

Familiar Lunatic

Saburoo
*reads OP* all look pretty cool... too lazy to analyze each in depth.

But I definitely have wanted several of those for quite a while... like health using rings.

I also want a self destruct ring... for crew use only (or the soloer with lots of revives) wink

I like the idea about DoT especially, I want something to make our 4-5ish exact replicas of defense rings to differ somewhat more.

Anyways, overall I really like all the ideas stated and would love to see them in game.

This makes me think of animated with a variety of attacks that they can have (like the old walkers, with either ranged DoT or melee). I want animated that randomly have like 2 out of 10 possible attacks, to keep things interesting.

Oh well, I'll stop before I go more off topic.
xd
I need lazy people like you. >.>
I don't think most animated could have more than a few attacks.
I have other plans to make things interesting.
Bwahahaha!
Enough.

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gataka
Okay, lets answer these >.>
tangocat777
Yes, lag would get in the way of the sinusoidal strategy. It sucks, but I'm sure players with relatively good connections would get a kick out of it. Sinusoidal attacks are my attempt at bringing advanced mathematics into computer games. Of course, I believe that players will be pretty impressed when developers explain a new attack concept that is a bit over the average player's head, but then they'll try it and see how it works from their perspective.
You can think of me as the reflect expert, man. And yes, crit reflects do occur now. And being the reflection kinda guy that I am, I wanna see even more deadly reflections. Right now there's a limit to how often reflects can occur, but increasing the damage of reflects could be balanced pretty similarly to other attacks.
I don't think lag would be much of a problem. If the frequency is low enough, those with a fair connection really shouldn't have any problem. It's only the heavy cases that could have trouble with it, and they would only have to avoid such rings. I wouldn't have trouble with it between my frozen screens.

You wouldn't quite have to explain the math/concept actually. See that flashing light? Activate your ring when it's at its brightest and you'll hit harder. Easy. If there's a way to tell when you reach the top. Like the Rage bar turning into the Fishing power bar, but likely way faster. And there should be, otherwise there's too much luck.

I'll keep that in mind. Can Reflected attacks miss? I'm totally for giving the players a way to build upon Reflection, if they're willing to "pay" for it. Turn it into a weapon, an actually strategy. Since the power of Reflection largely depends on the incoming attack, a fair bit of luck, and doesn't really cost anything (a way to improve it may), I wouldn't compare it to attack rings, thought. It's not something that depends on you.
Never had a reflected attack miss. Reflection is more or less a strategy already, but I want to see it expanded. Perhaps you've heard something about my solos. The reflection works as a pretty nice bridge between defense and offense, and between AoE and solo enemies. It's really great if you have few ring spots, but the trade off is health. Of course, healing in zOMG! is a bit more efficient than attacking anyways, so reflection might even be a bit overpowered as it is now. If you have a really good supply of health, you can easily benefit from it. Especially against bosses, their attacks can be reduced greatly by other armor buffs, but reflects always circumvent any armor you're wearing. For example, Stone Coatl can do over 1000 damage to himself in a single attack if it's reflected. If you tried to do that much damage in one approach to him using attack rings, you'd probably be almost out of health when you're done.
Keep in mind that sinusoidal rings could be used for other things as well. Sinusoidal healing, sinusoidal damage over time, sinusoidal crowd control. I think it would be cool if they could have an entire set of rings that operate on the concept, and they could be musical instruments. A fast attack could be percussion instruments like drums, and longer ones could be chord instruments or long bass lines like a sitar or something. The last two would probably be healing and crowd control. Something as a middle ground could give the set melody, like a saxophone or a guitar. That one could be a short-term buff, I guess. Maybe restore a bit of stamina to the crew if you activate the ring at the crest. And if a crew all used them like they were made to, you could have a band in-game. Or you could be a one-man band as you solo bosses with the set, whatever floats your boat.
/doesn't believe the title for a second

Gataka-- I love ya, but you lost me. Couldn't get through OP in one piece. Maybe that's just cause it's end of semester and my mind is shot from staying up for days on end though, idk.
I dunno, these are all cool ideas but it sounds like you want zOMG to turn into a hardcore MMORPG, like WoW or Everquest, but 2D and free. In my opinion, zOMG is supposed to be more like a casual MMO you can play any time even if you don't understand all those things like pulling, DoT and AoE, aggro, item stats, etc. However, I guess some more diversity could make things more interesting since the MMO isn't very complex itself at the moment, aside from the layering (which I can't stand, btw, especially with the Easter event.)

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WHOA! i think mine eyes had a seizure of late! so Many letters, so Little time!

sounds... complicated. but it seems pretty interesting with all those theories.

Familiar Lunatic

tangocat777
Never had a reflected attack miss. Reflection is more or less a strategy already, but I want to see it expanded. Perhaps you've heard something about my solos. The reflection works as a pretty nice bridge between defense and offense, and between AoE and solo enemies. It's really great if you have few ring spots, but the trade off is health. Of course, healing in zOMG! is a bit more efficient than attacking anyways, so reflection might even be a bit overpowered as it is now. If you have a really good supply of health, you can easily benefit from it. Especially against bosses, their attacks can be reduced greatly by other armor buffs, but reflects always circumvent any armor you're wearing. For example, Stone Coatl can do over 1000 damage to himself in a single attack if it's reflected. If you tried to do that much damage in one approach to him using attack rings, you'd probably be almost out of health when you're done.
Keep in mind that sinusoidal rings could be used for other things as well. Sinusoidal healing, sinusoidal damage over time, sinusoidal crowd control. I think it would be cool if they could have an entire set of rings that operate on the concept, and they could be musical instruments. A fast attack could be percussion instruments like drums, and longer ones could be chord instruments or long bass lines like a sitar or something. The last two would probably be healing and crowd control. Something as a middle ground could give the set melody, like a saxophone or a guitar. That one could be a short-term buff, I guess. Maybe restore a bit of stamina to the crew if you activate the ring at the crest. And if a crew all used them like they were made to, you could have a band in-game. Or you could be a one-man band as you solo bosses with the set, whatever floats your boat.
You're confident of Reflect never missing? Sorta makes sense.
Anyway, yep I've heard of your various feats. But this strategy is too slow for mook battle, right?
I wouldn't say it's overpowered: it's spread over much more time than the usual bashing. You went for the slow strategy of outliving the opponent, trading time for less risk and possibly work. Sounds fair to me. If its frequency was high enough to rival attack rings at their job of killing stuff, it would definitely be broken. And I think having a way to have weapon-grade Reflexion to be a possibility, if enough resources/slots are involved in the process, even if the fact that it also protects you might make it rather powerful. If you had to give up half your slots to gain it, would it be worth it?

Sinusoidal definitely fits the music theme. Mmm... In the usual heat of battle, when you can't focus on the assumed pulse indicator, this just adds more random to the game. Unless you decide to "stop" and follow the rhythm, hitting the top repeatedly for greater reward. Correct?
The assumed cooldoown could be nearly in phase with the sinusoidal, meaning that a constant spamming of the effect is the easiest way to stay in sync. What do you think of this?

@HotRed_Streak: *tries to stick his fork into your flesh* How far in did you go? *misses* Might help me limit my future threads a little better. *misses* I admitedly went a bit over the top. I just have so many ideas. >.< *misses* Adrenaline! Where are you when I need you? D:

@Zomblaze: You don't need to understand all these things to play the game. There's a lot of math affecting your action that you don't need to understand or even be aware of. You'll get a sense of how engine behaves just by playing. Idea #12 strays into more "Hardcore" territory, but it's not serious. And #20 also is not for the math-scared, but you can still use it without understanding what it really does. Everything else you can ignore like you're ignoring many of the stuff that already happens in the game, or easily learn how to use, which is what you only need to care about.

@OMG its kirby: I will take over the world. It only looks complicated; the end result would pretty much be like the current rings. And it was longer to begin with >.>

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Reflection is pretty slow against regular animated. Against bosses, however, there's a discrepancy. Attacking relies on stamina, and I use my stamina very efficiently in that I heal myself, and then my armor buffs reduce the damage I take and my health can be used to move in attack range for reflection. It could be that my combined high-defense and reflect strategy is more effective than having three or so attacks, but I wouldn't know. I do know that Stone Coatl goes faster with one attack ring than nothing, but as for which contributes more, not sure. I should try taking out Coatl as fast as I can and seeing how much damage is reflection some day.
For sinusoidal. I was thinking that the cooldown would end slightly before the point on the wave where you activated. Exactly on the point is troublesome because of human latency. If it's just a bit before, it relies a bit more on skill to make sure that the attack is fully efficient. And just the pure rhythm factor can affect a person's sense of timing a lot. But all of this is conjecture until the devs actually try it. I think they should set the balance of any ring designs they work with.

Familiar Lunatic

Forgot the cost factor >.>
And I await the result of this experiment impatiently. Will help in judging the power of reflection.
And other things.

And no they shouldn't. Leave the balancing to me and my goons. Yeah.
*World ends two days after*
Now, where did I go wrong?
Should have picked the purple pill.

Distinct Warlord

Like...smoke? Come on, gataka. You could pull out something better than that xd

I'll read the hardcore part tomorrow to also provide you a newer bump. And re-reading myself is a torture, I fail when it comes to be coherent. Although you completely fail to see of what point I'm talking about considering that I answer this thing in order. gonk

Familiar Lunatic

Ungoliath
Like...smoke? Come on, gataka. You could pull out something better than that xd

I'll read the hardcore part tomorrow to also provide you a newer bump. And re-reading myself is a torture, I fail when it comes to be coherent. Although you completely fail to see of what point I'm talking about considering that I answer this thing in order. gonk
I FAIL D : *flails arms*
Yeah, man. But look at the size of this thread. I'm still making typos from answering these.
My creative powers have been drained by the lack of sleep and hours spent typing.
But they truly are incomplete. Not that interesting, anyway.
But speaking of sleep...
Why am-I still here?
ninja

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