ANOTHER post about ideas on new rings. Red Divinity?

[Hinterland Wayfinder]

Brutality would be a nice name for this ring idea.. And so far, I really like it.
It should definitely be a 'self-only' buff. I fear it would be game-breaking other-wards.

There have been some minor visual suggestions and ideas regarding rage before, but nothing in terms of being a ring. This idea is quite unique. Now if only your avatar would have a little glow effect or something when your holding & charging up rage to use it like a previous suggesting buried somewhere here in the z!F. pirate


Oh! Hey nagi, long time no see!

[Lobotryas]

A ring that you use to increase your Rage? Wat emotion_eyebrow

Again, I recommend the powerup route. At a minimum, the Devs won't have to come up with four different use animations for a powerup.

[Red Kutai]

Tarot Rune

Brutality would be a nice name for this ring idea.. And so far, I really like it.
It should definitely be a 'self-only' buff. I fear it would be game-breaking other-wards.

There have been some minor visual suggestions and ideas regarding rage before, but nothing in terms of being a ring. This idea is quite unique. Now if only your avatar would have a little glow effect or something when your holding & charging up rage to use it like a previous suggesting buried somewhere here in the z!F. pirate


Oh! Hey nagi, long time no see!

To be fair, I'd argue a few of the buffs we already have are 'gamebreaking' - at this point gameplay is just so warped around them that it's a little hard to notice. whee

As I mentioned before, Rage is one of my personal favourite mechanics - I've gone as far as suggesting Passives scale with Rage, to give players a reason to hold on to it (I think that would probably work best as a single unique Passive, now). I've seen suggestions for Rage-boosting before (though none as complete as this one, to be sure), but as I mentioned I think the fact that Rage is pretty 'cheap' already makes that less immediately appealing. If they were to clear up the existing 'self-Rage' glitches so that we could get a better image of how difficult it is to gather Rage naturally, there would be a bit more to say on the subect.

That said, I still think 'Rage motes' or glow effects would be a great addition; as well, some effect to draw attention to the Rage metre as it fills would probably benefit the system. I think there's a great deal of room available in designing around Rage, but as-is there are a few obstacles that I'd be eager to remove, first... sweatdrop

[Hinterland Wayfinder]

Lobotryas

A ring that you use to increase your Rage? Wat emotion_eyebrow

Again, I recommend the powerup route. At a minimum, the Devs won't have to come up with four different use animations for a powerup.

In the form of a Power-up, a crew could just pop them like candy and still take every ring they would like to on a run. If its a ring, it sacrifices a ring slot; forcing decisions to be made and farther expanding specific roles within a crew.

Something that would be as powerful as gaining rapid rage, particularly when/if all the self-raging glitches are fixed as Red stated, would need some kind a sacrifice in turn for its effects to help balance things out. Power ups are amazing items, because there is absolutely no downside to using one aside from the fact that you have to buy more.
Though, in terms of work being put into implementing such an item or feature, I completely understand the approach of a power-up.

[Lobotryas]

Tarot Rune

Lobotryas

A ring that you use to increase your Rage? Wat emotion_eyebrow

Again, I recommend the powerup route. At a minimum, the Devs won't have to come up with four different use animations for a powerup.

In the form of a Power-up, a crew could just pop them like candy and still take every ring they would like to on a run. If its a ring, it sacrifices a ring slot; forcing decisions to be made and farther expanding specific roles within a crew.

Something that would be as powerful as gaining rapid rage, particularly when/if all the self-raging glitches are fixed as Red stated, would need some kind a sacrifice in turn for its effects to help balance things out. Power ups are amazing items, because there is absolutely no downside to using one aside from the fact that you have to buy more.
Though, in terms of work being put into implementing such an item or feature, I completely understand the approach of a power-up.

By that logic people should stop taking healing rings or a dedicated healer because they can just "pop Superchargers like candy" and take even more attack rings with them.

The powerup would have a cooldown like supercharger (or longer). The sacrifice is having to spend gold or gcash to acquire the powerup in the first place.

[Red Kutai]

Lobotryas

Tarot Rune

Lobotryas

A ring that you use to increase your Rage? Wat emotion_eyebrow

Again, I recommend the powerup route. At a minimum, the Devs won't have to come up with four different use animations for a powerup.

In the form of a Power-up, a crew could just pop them like candy and still take every ring they would like to on a run. If its a ring, it sacrifices a ring slot; forcing decisions to be made and farther expanding specific roles within a crew.

Something that would be as powerful as gaining rapid rage, particularly when/if all the self-raging glitches are fixed as Red stated, would need some kind a sacrifice in turn for its effects to help balance things out. Power ups are amazing items, because there is absolutely no downside to using one aside from the fact that you have to buy more.
Though, in terms of work being put into implementing such an item or feature, I completely understand the approach of a power-up.

By that logic people should stop taking healing rings or a dedicated healer because they can just "pop Superchargers like candy" and take even more attack rings with them.

The powerup would have a cooldown like supercharger (or longer). The sacrifice is having to spend gold or gcash to acquire the powerup in the first place.

To be fair, inasfar as its role is healing, the Supercharger isn't a great powerup design - if that's all it did, it would only see use as a replacement for healing rings. Inasfar as its role is restoring Stamina, though, it does fine - because that's something you can't spend a ring slot on.

Rings naturally want a diverse field of effects, and overlapping unnecessarily with Powerups tends to be adverse toward the system's needs. It's best - I feel - to use Powerups to achieve things that can't reasonably be achieved via rings. Since whatever design space we devote to Powerups is essentially wasted on rings - and because Powerups tend to have a broad impact in how they affect the game - I'd avoid areas of design space that look like they have the potential to be interesting, like Rage. Allowing access to Rage 'for free' severely impacts future designs that orient around Rage; the loss in design space isn't really worth the trickle of extra revenue.

I agree that now's not a good time to make it, or any ring - but I'd argue the only good time to make it a Powerup would be if development for the game were permanently ended, as it has the potential to impede greatly on what could be a great vein of design space. But if the game were that dead, I suppose, we likely wouldn't be discussing where to add more Poweups... wink

[Lobotryas]

Red Kutai

There was never a rule that a powerup introduced at one time has to remain available forever. See: Cure and Ghi Boost powerups. stare

My overarching point is that I want to avoid waiting around as people exploit bugs just so they can get enough rage for RR4 versions of their buffs. Creating a ring that generates rage is both more difficult (more coding, more use animations) and makes less sense in the context of the game than creating a powerup. Powerups would also bring more money to zOMG! in the long-term because they're meant to be consumed instead of purchased once forever.

[Red Kutai]

Lobotryas

There was never a rule that a powerup introduced at one time has to remain available forever. See: Cure and Ghi Boost powerups. stare

Neither of those are really relevant examples, I'm afraid. Cure was never actually released; "leaked" would be more appropriate, and it was removed because it was never intentionally introduced to the game. Ghi Boosts, contrariwise, were only removed to make room for a better version of the same powerup: the modern Ghi Amp. Unless you're proposing such a Powerup be released in one of those manners (the former of which cannot be done intentionally, while the latter doesn't achieve what you're intending), those examples don't prove much of a point. It's possible, of course, but I'm not sure what your examples were intended to support.

Whether or not the concept is worthwhile is another thing entirely - I personally don't see much of any advantage. Particularly when you pose Powerups as the 'easier' option, the notion that you would invest any effort in something which you intend to minimise the impact of at a later date seems decidedly inefficient. If the game wants the addition, it's the developers' job not to remove it; if the game doesn't, it's the developers' job not to add it in the first place.

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My overarching point is that I want to avoid waiting around as people exploit bugs just so they can get enough rage for RR4 versions of their buffs. Creating a ring that generates rage is both more difficult (more coding, more use animations) and makes less sense in the context of the game than creating a powerup. Powerups would also bring more money to zOMG! in the long-term because they're meant to be consumed instead of purchased once forever.

I don't see any way in which bug exploitation and creation of a powerup are related - if the bugs exist, why would anyone pay for the Powerup; if the bugs are fixed, your point becomes... Well, pointless. The same is true of rings, of course, or anything else that aims to compete with 'free Rage' glitches - unless those glitches are assumed to be fixed, this discussion is altogether moot.

Additionally, the notion that the introduction of any new Powerup would significantly increase revenue seems far-fetched; Powerups have been tried as a revenue source, and found disasterously wanting. It's obviously true that a paid Powerup will produce more revenue than a free ring, but unless we're expecting it to save zOMG! - which neither option would - the distinction is practically trivial.

I'm not sure what you mean in saying that a ring generating Rage makes less sense than a a Powerup doing the same thing, but I find the value of its being an 'easier' option trivial, at best - the game has a history of choosing quicker, easier fixes over proper ones, and that history has contributed to the state the game finds itself in now. Simply put, I don't think zOMG! can afford to make decisions on the basis of how 'easy' they are, any longer; at some point the game needs to start making decisions based on what the game really needs, and actively supporting the systems that make the game most fun (the Ring System and the Rage System, foremost) is an integral part of that...

[Lobotryas]

The point, which you're deliberately missing, Red, is that Powerups can come and go at the whim of the developers. Gaia can tweak their properties however they want with zero obligation that things "stay the same" to the users.

Red Kutai

I personally don't see much of any advantage.

You're unable to see the advantage in zOMG! making more money and removing a very tedious aspect of the game?

Red Kutai

something which you intend to minimise the impact of at a later date seems decidedly inefficient

What are you talking about? Are we even reading the same thread?

Red Kutai

If the game wants the addition, it's the developers' job not to remove it; if the game doesn't, it's the developers' job not to add it in the first place.

Are you actually anthropomorphizing zOMG! or are you implying that the opinion of the users actually means anything? emotion_facepalm

Red Kutai

if the bugs exist, why would anyone pay for the Powerup; if the bugs are fixed, your point becomes... Well, pointless.

The problem of obtaining rage for RR4 buffs will remain after the bugs are fixed.

Red Kutai

It's obviously true that a paid Powerup will produce more revenue than a free ring, but unless we're expecting it to save zOMG! - which neither option would - the distinction is practically trivial.

Nice false dilemma fallacy, Red. Either an idea is supposed to "save zOMG!" or it's not worth trying? I'd rather see the developers try and fail than never attempt anything at all. The kind of limited thinking you exhibit is exactly what's holding the game back. talk2hand

Conclusion: It appears that you want to argue for the sake of argument. That's fine, but your refusal to fully engage makes this discussion just another circle-jerk. I wish you the best of luck in finding a "master-stroke-genius-idea" that would solve all of zOMG!'s problems. Maybe when you figure that out, you'll consider lending your incredible skills to other equally worthwhile causes. rofl

[Red Kutai]

Lobotryas

The point, which you're deliberately missing, Red, is that Powerups can come and go at the whim of the developers. Gaia can tweak their properties however they want with zero obligation that things "stay the same" to the users.

It's also quite within their rights to initiate Random-Bannings Thursdays - but the authority to do it doesn't make it a good idea. As I said, it's obviously possible for them to do so - I simply don't see any defensible reason to.

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You're unable to see the advantage in zOMG! making more money and removing a very tedious aspect of the game?

Making 'more money'? No real advantage, no. Removing tedious aspects? Certainly advantageous, but not obviously relevant to this discussion.

Marginal revenue increases aren't going to do anything for zOMG!, at this point - any additional money it makes at this point will simply continue to be fed into other projects. Until zOMG! possesses the potential to be comparably profitable to its alternatives, money will not be its saving grace. The issue is that the profit model - Powerups - is fundamentally flawed. Unless a suggestion departs significantly from that model, I don't believe its potential revenue gains are actually worth considering.

As for tedium, I've already stated that I believe Rage is one of the best elements of zOMG!'s actual gameplay, and that the first thing I'd consider improving on it would be making Rage harder to come by. I'm afraid you'll have to make a stronger argument against the system, for me to cede that it's somehow detrimental.

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What are you talking about? Are we even reading the same thread?

Oftentimes when you remove items from a game, that subsequently minimises their impact. I suspect I could've been clearer, but I'm still not sure that response was entirely warranted.

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Are you actually anthropomorphizing zOMG! or are you implying that the opinion of the users actually means anything? emotion_facepalm

Anthropomorphising, as it were; much as you would if a tree 'wanted' to grow in a certain direction. Though I'm certainly of the belief that user opinions are a worthwhile design tool, that's not-at-all what I was referring to.

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The problem of obtaining rage for RR4 buffs will remain after the bugs are fixed.

What you call a "problem", others call "game design" - if you were supposed to have RR4 buffs automatically, they'd simply have made them all Passives. As I've stated before, I think the game would be better if it required players to make decisions - what to bring, what to Rage - and simply making it easier to obtain resources doesn't advance that goal. I am of the belief that the game would be much better off if RR4 buffs (and having a full complement of buffs in general) were not considered a standard.

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Nice false dilemma fallacy, Red. Either an idea is supposed to "save zOMG!" or it's not worth trying? I'd rather see the developers try and fail than never attempt anything at all. The kind of limited thinking you exhibit is exactly what's holding the game back. talk2hand

I can certainly see how it might appear to be false dilemma, but as I explained above, one can reasonably conclude that any new revenue source will fall into one of two categories: "substantial" or "trivial". "Substantial" sources are new, sound profit models that would encourage Gaia to consider investing in zOMG! in the future; "trivial" sources are everything else. Because the distinction hinges on a single binary decision - Gaia's decision to invest, or not invest - the situation is much closer to a true dilemma than it might seem at first glance.

It's not that I don't want to see the developers try; I just want to see them trying things that actually have the potential to achieve something. I am firmly of the belief that - at this point - they could make Powerups until the lot of them were blue in the collective face, and it wouldn't benefit the game in any notable way. I'd rather their time and energy be spent on ideas that are designed specifically to impact the game's future in a positive way; they'll have more than enough time to waste on fruitless additions once the game has more support.

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Conclusion: It appears that you want to argue for the sake of argument. That's fine, but your refusal to fully engage makes this discussion just another circle-jerk. I wish you the best of luck in finding a "master-stroke-genius-idea" that would solve all of zOMG!'s problems. Maybe when you figure that out, you'll consider lending your incredible skills to other equally worthwhile causes. rofl

I'm not certain what you mean in saying that I'm not fully engaged - did you even propose? redface - but I can reassure you at the very least that I avoid arguments in general, and particularly those "for the sake of argument". Rather, I deal in discussions, and my real goal is to learn something - I love nothing more than to be proven wrong, as it allows me the opportunity to do so. That said, there's quite a lot of room between arguing for the sake of argument, and passively submitting to others opinions; and I work hard to avoid both.

I appreciate your encouragement, though; after zOMG!, I'm currently in a toss-up between politics (solving society's problems) or theoretical physics (solving the Universe). If you have any personal preference as to where I direct my "incredible skills", I'd be more than happy to take your opinions under full consideration... 3nodding