(some) Shippers, Y U NO understand canon?

[Pokeprof]

Princess Dustbunny

Okay, trying not to be one of Those Fans, because this isn't serious business. But who are you exactly to tell other people why they ship what they ship, and why is what you ship more legitimate? It's all fanon anyway. Zuko and Katara's relationship in canon didn't leave an impression on you, cool. Deciding that their relationship in canon therefore couldn't have left an impression on anybody, not so cool. Are people who don't ship Kim/Shego and Robin/Raven also wrong, for not seeing their relationships the way you do? What about people who do ship them, but for different reasons than you?

You're absolutely correct that canon is canon and fanon shippers who cry foul when their ships aren't vindicated by canon/claim their ships are TRUE CANON/look down on canon shippers for bowing to The Man are in the wrong. But ranking your own fanon above other people's fanon because reasons is no more right.

First off, before anything else is said, I gotta say this. You are free to write what you want, to post what you want. You could pair together Iroh with Bumi for all I care, just enjoy what you're doing and have fun with it. I'm not trying to say any one pairing is bad, but that by my own personal view point of fanfics, some simply do not work.

For me, things are different. For me, when I see 'Fanfic' I see 'I'm trying to write a story in which the characters, settings, and/or worlds presented in a way that the original characters could possibly act.' This puts the likelihood, again, FOR ME, of such a pairing down quite low. The reason I place my own fanon ships higher is because they're, in the end, more believable and the point of a Fanfic by my definition is to give us a believable story within the confines of that universe.

Alternate Universe stories can be done, and are enjoyable when done well, but the difference between these and normal fanfics, for me, is that label. Here, you're telling me that things aren't going to follow the universe I know to the letter. Hell, depending on the author and what the idea behind the story is, there's no telling WHAT can happen in a story.. If it's a Fanfic, it's should at least try to follow canon. If it's an AU Fanfic, you could have Aang fire eye lazor beams if you really wanted to. The end point is, for me, a label. Give me that label and understand that you're writing under that label, and I'll have no complaints.

[The Situational Badass]

Princess Dustbunny

The Occasional Traveller

Princess Dustbunny

Pokeprof

My only problem with any specific shipping that happens in a fandom is when the pair together characters that in canon couldn't be further apart. Example of this that I like to point out specifically would be Zuko/Katara from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Outside of one or two scenes in the show, of which were put in because of fans of that pairing, the characters have little to no interaction with each other, good OR bad. It really seems that the only reason anyone wants them together is because Zuko's the only other male that you can really pair Katara with and he's 'cooler' then Aang.

That's not to say that I'm not a supporter of Fanon pairings. Two of my favorite pairings are Kim/Shego (Kim Possible) and Robin/Raven (Teen Titans). The difference between why I like my pairings vs the Zuko/Katara fans? My pairings are at least based on the characters, their personalities, and the interactions with each other. Without going into huge detail, Kim and Shego know each other very well through constant interaction, fighting, and even helping each other from time to time. Robin and Raven both haven't had the easiest of childhoods, are serious minded, and tend to be more focused about what needs to be done instead of the less then focused desires of the rest of the Titans (specially if you're going by the cartoon version of the comics). Katara and Zuko are the Hero girl and the Bad boy turning good respectively and that's about it.

That said, if there IS a canon pairing in a series, that's the pairing. If you do anything different, that's fanon. No ifs, ands, or buts. Have fun writing your fanon, but don't dictate it as the 'This is what's real, no matter what' kind of attitude.

Okay, trying not to be one of Those Fans, because this isn't serious business. But who are you exactly to tell other people why they ship what they ship, and why is what you ship more legitimate? It's all fanon anyway. Zuko and Katara's relationship in canon didn't leave an impression on you, cool. Deciding that their relationship in canon therefore couldn't have left an impression on anybody, not so cool. Are people who don't ship Kim/Shego and Robin/Raven also wrong, for not seeing their relationships the way you do? What about people who do ship them, but for different reasons than you?

You're absolutely correct that canon is canon and fanon shippers who cry foul when their ships aren't vindicated by canon/claim their ships are TRUE CANON/look down on canon shippers for bowing to The Man are in the wrong. But ranking your own fanon above other people's fanon because reasons is no more right.

There's a fallacy in that logic. I don't follow any ships but canon, and in fandoms where there is no canon relationship I do not ship.

Okay? That's great if it's what works for you, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the argument that fanon doesn't trump fanon.

I thought you had been accusing me of putting my fanon above others when I don't even have fanon. Whoops.

[Princess Dustbunny]

Pokeprof

First off, before anything else is said, I gotta say this. You are free to write what you want, to post what you want. You could pair together Iroh with Bumi for all I care, just enjoy what you're doing and have fun with it. I'm not trying to say any one pairing is bad, but that by my own personal view point of fanfics, some simply do not work.

For me, things are different. For me, when I see 'Fanfic' I see 'I'm trying to write a story in which the characters, settings, and/or worlds presented in a way that the original characters could possibly act.' This puts the likelihood, again, FOR ME, of such a pairing down quite low. The reason I place my own fanon ships higher is because they're, in the end, more believable and the point of a Fanfic by my definition is to give us a believable story within the confines of that universe.

Alternate Universe stories can be done, and are enjoyable when done well, but the difference between these and normal fanfics, for me, is that label. Here, you're telling me that things aren't going to follow the universe I know to the letter. Hell, depending on the author and what the idea behind the story is, there's no telling WHAT can happen in a story.. If it's a Fanfic, it's should at least try to follow canon. If it's an AU Fanfic, you could have Aang fire eye lazor beams if you really wanted to. The end point is, for me, a label. Give me that label and understand that you're writing under that label, and I'll have no complaints.

I didn't think you were trying to argue that people can't read or write what they like, and I apologize if you felt accused of doing so.

What got under my nails was the claim that people don't ship Zuko and Katara because of their personalities and interactions (I do, for a start) and, moreover, the implication that shipping characters who don't have a lot of or any canon interaction is somehow beneath shipping characters who do. It's fanfic, characters are already going to be in situations not present in canon; why should "trying to write a story in which the characters, settings, and/or worlds presented in a way that the original characters could possibly act" be at odds with "shipping these characters"? Just because I want to read a fanon ship-- even a never-met-in-canon ship-- doesn't mean I want to read fic that tosses canon and characterization out the window. Quite the opposite, I want to read fic that makes that ship work.

Really, how believable a ship is is subjective. I don't see how Robin and Raven or Kim and Shego are any more believable than Zuko and Katara right from the starting line, and I say that as a fan of all three ships. Of course, I also don't see why it matters-- again, this is fanfic. None of these ships are canon and none of them are going to be (except possibly Robin and Raven in the comics; you never know with Titans or Bat-family books). For that matter, even a given canon shipfic isn't necessarily going to be more in-character or canon-compliant than a given fanon shipfic; why should a given fanon shipfic then necessarily be more in-character or canon-compliant than any other given fanon shipfic?

Like you said, shipping is supposed to be fun. By all means, have fun. But your fun isn't any more legitimate than mine just because it makes more sense to you.

Sorry for any messiness in the above. I should really be asleep right now.

The Occasional Traveller

I thought you had been accusing me of putting my fanon above others when I don't even have fanon. Whoops.

Ah, I gotcha. Sorry for being unclear. It didn't occur to me that it might look like I was making a general address.

[KitWolfren]

I love this thread so very much...

[Mortok]

The whole reason fan-culture even exists is because fans are not satisfied with the canon. The whole point of fanfiction is to deviate from canon, so that you can have the story you want, in the world you love, with the characters you love.

It is not limited to pairings either, not by a long shot. Characters get resurrected, or re-introduced after they died or left the series. Disliked characters get killed off. Villains and heros change allegiances as easily as they change outfits.

I have not once seen someone claim that their fan-pairing is true canon. Most of them freely admit that it isn't. They just want their lurid kinkfuel, and frankly, who are we to deny them that?

[phantomkitsune]

Correct response to shipping wars is to just ship everything.

[I_Write_Ivre]

The Occasional Traveller

It's nice to see another shipper who respects canon.

I'm not sure if 'respect' is the word I'd use sometimes, but that's more due to what I feel is poor writing, not who I want paired up

[Lazarus Larkin]

Mortok

The whole reason fan-culture even exists is because fans are not satisfied with the canon. The whole point of fanfiction is to deviate from canon, so that you can have the story you want, in the world you love, with the characters you love.

It is not limited to pairings either, not by a long shot. Characters get resurrected, or re-introduced after they died or left the series. Disliked characters get killed off. Villains and heros change allegiances as easily as they change outfits.

I have not once seen someone claim that their fan-pairing is true canon. Most of them freely admit that it isn't. They just want their lurid kinkfuel, and frankly, who are we to deny them that?

I once got a Trigun fanfic mailing list mad at me because I said Yasuhiro Nightow (aka the actual author of the original manga) never intended Vash and Wolfwood to be a couple >.<

They're like, one of my favorite pairings ever in history. I would be lying if I said I didn't think they SHOULD have been canon. But they AREN'T canon. Yet apparently saying so meant I hated the ship to some people on the mailing list = /

Mostly I agree with you though. I sometimes write fanfic when the original canon pisses me off, so I understand why others might want to, too, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. (Geez. I hate Harry/Ginny AND Katara/Aang because I feel like canon developed the relationships really, really poorly. If you disagree that's fine, but that doesn't mean my opinion is invalid.)

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

phantomkitsune

Correct response to shipping wars is to just ship everything.

I'm so guilty of doing that just for laughs.

In all seriousness though, trying to define what is a canon pairing and what isn't can be a difficult thing to do. In today's culture it seems the writer has to expressly have the characters f*cking for people to get the idea the two are romantically linked. I would love to point at Louis and Lestat, where battles rage constantly, because physical intercourse wasn't written into the book.

Other examples? Loras and Renly, from the Game of Thrones/A Song Of Ice and Fire. In the books they are not expressly stated to be gay, though a lot of people took it that way (and were bashed for their 'fanon' shipping). In the show it was confirmed, and then doubly confirmed by the author himself. How many people wrote a gay OC with a young Dumbledore, never knowing how much closer they were to the author's vision than those who wrote him with Harry's mother? (Which J. K. Rowling's agent wanted implied before he was told that Dumbledore was gay.)

I've personally always been a fan of Iron Man/Captain America. Is it wrong that I take their being married in an alternate reality as a go sign/wink from the writers?

For a long time I was in the Samurai Warriors fandom, and just interested in the Edo period in general. One pairing that cropped up a lot was Ranmaru/Nobunaga, which I hated and thought defeated the purpose of both characters and sort of basterdized the roles they held; then I found out they were one of the most famous gay couples of their time. It turns out all of those 'hints' people were picking up on in Onimusha, Samurai Warriors, Kessen and so forth were legitimate signs.

I'd also love to point out Buffy and Spike, who started out with a very mutually antagonistic relationship. I'm sure there are more examples, but that one springs the most immediately to mind with canon foe-yay going on.

So I guess it depends on what you qualify as a canon couple. If you need them to actually get it on in the show to justify it, I think you're missing out on a lot of subtler cues. Depending on the fandom you're involved in, of course.

[Mortok]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

I've personally always been a fan of Iron Man/Captain America. Is it wrong that I take their being married in an alternate reality as a go sign/wink from the writers?

Cap and Iron Man are so married it's not even funny. Especially in the Avengers animated series. lol

I don't "ship" them, though, or really anything at all, because I don't do fanfic anymore. If I did, it'd probably just be blatant porn. lol

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

Mortok

Rotsab M. Hyolf

I've personally always been a fan of Iron Man/Captain America. Is it wrong that I take their being married in an alternate reality as a go sign/wink from the writers?

Cap and Iron Man are so married it's not even funny. Especially in the Avengers animated series. lol

I don't "ship" them, though, or really anything at all, because I don't do fanfic anymore. If I did, it'd probably just be blatant porn. lol

Oh, yeah, I should clarify I don't actually write fanfiction anymore, or really read any of it. It's just that I'm more likely to pick up a comic with the two of them in it, and am currently going mad with desire over needing to see the new Avengers movie.

They had a monologue complaining about how the other had such a strong jaw/blue eyes. It's jus ridiculous with those two, now. xD

[Mortok]

Rotsab M. Hyolf

Mortok

Rotsab M. Hyolf

I've personally always been a fan of Iron Man/Captain America. Is it wrong that I take their being married in an alternate reality as a go sign/wink from the writers?

Cap and Iron Man are so married it's not even funny. Especially in the Avengers animated series. lol

I don't "ship" them, though, or really anything at all, because I don't do fanfic anymore. If I did, it'd probably just be blatant porn. lol

Oh, yeah, I should clarify I don't actually write fanfiction anymore, or really read any of it. It's just that I'm more likely to pick up a comic with the two of them in it, and am currently going mad with desire over needing to see the new Avengers movie.

They had a monologue complaining about how the other had such a strong jaw/blue eyes. It's jus ridiculous with those two, now. xD

Avengers is a fantastic film. I saw it a few days ago (it came out earlier in Australia).

[Rotsab M. Hyolf]

Mortok

Avengers is a fantastic film. I saw it a few days ago (it came out earlier in Australia).

Augh, I am eternally jealous! xD It just came out here today. (Well... technically today ended three hours ago, but you know what I mean, haha. )

I'm glad to hear it's good, though! I've been trying to avoid write-ups/trailers/so on. Spoils the mood I think, a bit, to know what is coming.

[marshmallowcreampie]

Most shipping I do is for fun. Yeah, I know Tahno and Mako probably won't get together, but I can dream! emotion_awesome

In all seriousness... Aside from the people who have the "Die For Our Ship" attitudes, I don't really have a problem with shippers. There are many who do a lot of shipping just for fun but in the end, still respect and accept the canon pairing. (for the record, I don't write any fanfiction. I just ship for the fun of it)

[Pawlas Cathena]

I prefer crack pairings but there's a pairing for everyone. As long as I'm left alone to ship whomever I want, I'll leave you alone to do the same.